Delfosse Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Why would/should someone feel "ashamed" into doing something? Sounds more like being a slave to a system that doesn't breed creativity, moreso a manufactoring plant that breeds unrest. And I don't know if you're serious really or what but do you really think there would be such a public outcry for the government to fund an old school RPG? Lol...wut.. Kickstarter has nothing to do with Communism? What Government is sponsoring Kickstarter? lol - it's the result of a company making a nice move - a company that isn't as burdened by taxes as much as local businesses are. Also, since people never skimp out on putting money towards entertainment, even in hard economic times, it's pretty much win/win. Woah, slow down there, cowboy. I didn't jump in your face with USSR's cold war propaganda clich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blodhemn Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Why can't you discuss something with someone with a different view without getting mad? Why do you think there's enough people that could convince a government to fund an old school RPG? Why do you think a designer of said RPG should be shamed into making a game every other year? Doesn't EA do that already, except for the shaming part, and are EA's games really that good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delfosse Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Why can't you discuss something with someone with a different view without getting mad? Spitting the most outrageous cold war propaganda isn't a discussion starter, it's a rude provocation. In real life, it's the equivalent of coming up to somebody and spitting him in the face, and then getting upset about the reaction. Why do you think there's enough people that could convince a government to fund an old school RPG? What, in communism? Because people own the means of production, not some big ass publisher who only cares about maximizing profitability. Therefore people (state) do with it what they want (i.e. sponsor an old school RPG among other things). Why do you think a designer of said RPG should be shamed into making a game every other year? It was mostly meant as a joke. Explanation: It was theorized that in real communism, people would work not because they are being forced to through a monetary system. There is no money in communism. It simply means an incredibly high (by our standards) level of personal responsibility. Of course Fargo could work as somebody else, but since he loves making RPGs, that's probably what he'd be doing. The image of Brian feeling ashamed of not delivering an RPG every other year or so made me smile. It'd probably be true, too. Doesn't EA do that already, except for the shaming part, and are EA's games really that good? EA listens to the "market", not to the people. Almost everyone does that nowadays. Hence lack or almost total absence of good games. The "invisible hand of the market" fills the publishers pockets, but people (who aren't teenagers and publishers' core audience) are left with no options other than choking down ****ty games that look to adult audience like pathetic abortions and not games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Backing a project on kickstarter is just as 'economically rational capitalism' as is purchasing a game for $50, or buying shares, or funding your friend's lemonade stand. You don't even need to get into communism and socialism, and all the silly baggage that comes with it. It's not socialist to back kickstarter and it's not 'capitalist' to buy $50 games. In either case there's a specific funding model within the rubric of free market capitalism, and you can choose to participate in that particular market or not. I'd get more worked up about how amazingly silly this is, but it's also my belief that Delfosse at least wasn't being serious with the communism stuff, so actually, we're all being a bit silly. :D Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I know I wasn't, I'm just sort of half-expecting Big Publishing to try to paint it as such... You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blodhemn Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Yeah I typed up a long reply but deleted it as I thought I'd be talking to myself, not knowing if it's mostly a joke. Apparently though, as seen in the Tortured Hearts kickstarter thread, Delfosse is slamming a smaller group of lesser known game makers as if they have no right to ask for a pledge, however only the more mainstream designers like Fargo is allowed. So by the 'populist' system, only the most mainstream game makers could make games. That's even worse off to how the game industy is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delfosse Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Yeah I typed up a long reply but deleted it as I thought I'd be talking to myself, not knowing if it's mostly a joke. Apparently though, as seen in the Tortured Hearts kickstarter thread, Delfosse is slamming a smaller group of lesser known game makers as if they have no right to ask for a pledge, however only the more mainstream designers like Fargo is allowed. So by the 'populist' system, only the most mainstream game makers could make games. That's even worse off to how the game industy is now. I tried to help them because they were doing it wrong, but I thought they were doing something interesting. So I provided useful feedback in form of not only critique, but also suggestions. I said they wouldn't gather anything if they continued on their current path and told them what was absolutely critical to change. And they didn't. Does it mean that I was wrong? No, it actually means that maybe they should've listened to feedback instead of making poor excuses. In your distorted world view, I'm the bad guy. Nice. but it's also my belief that Delfosse at least wasn't being serious with the communism stuff At first I wasn't. But then I was. And now I'm not gonna be, cause it's annoying as hell (for me, and others I think) to discuss red ideology on an rpg forum where people think communism means lobotomizing people. I am a communist though. Viva la revolution! Edited April 19, 2012 by Delfosse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchomene Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Patronage is neither capitalist or socialist. It's an antique system that proved to be very efficient for artistic creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Patronage is neither capitalist or socialist. It's an antique system that proved to be very efficient for artistic creation. Interesting thought. Never really thought of it that way before, but it is rather spot on. We are after all talking about "unessential" stuff, like entertainment and not a new malaria vaccine. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rostere Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Seriously, guys. Since Kickstarter is an entirely voluntary purchase within a (in this context) capitalist system, it's as "capitalist" as you can get. "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Patronage is neither capitalist or socialist. It's an antique system that proved to be very efficient for artistic creation. Interesting thought. Never really thought of it that way before, but it is rather spot on. We are after all talking about "unessential" stuff, like entertainment and not a new malaria vaccine. Patronage was, back then, a single wealthy individual/family giving money to an artist so they could get stuff (and probably political/superiority points vis a vis other nobles or wealthy bourgeoisie). In fact, the big publisher model is a lot closer to it than kickstarter is. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Patronage is neither capitalist or socialist. It's an antique system that proved to be very efficient for artistic creation. Interesting thought. Never really thought of it that way before, but it is rather spot on. We are after all talking about "unessential" stuff, like entertainment and not a new malaria vaccine. Patronage was, back then, a single wealthy individual/family giving money to an artist so they could get stuff (and probably political/superiority points vis a vis other nobles or wealthy bourgeoisie). In fact, the big publisher model is a lot closer to it than kickstarter is. I usually lump publishers together with banks, insurance companies and pension funds. They have money that they need to invest and want as much money as possible back in return. Some of them specializes and invests real estate, shares or dubious schemes like credit default swaps. Some invest in projects, like land development, ship building, movie making or video games. Usually run by suits who sometimes engages "experts", who works in advisory roles on what is currently most likely to give a return in their market segment. People may have different motives for supporting at least some kickstarter projects. I definitely don't expect to get my money back, much less with interest. If I'm lucky, I might get something close to moneys worth of entertainment back, but I'm not expecting it. 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchomene Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Patronage is neither capitalist or socialist. It's an antique system that proved to be very efficient for artistic creation. Interesting thought. Never really thought of it that way before, but it is rather spot on. We are after all talking about "unessential" stuff, like entertainment and not a new malaria vaccine. Patronage was, back then, a single wealthy individual/family giving money to an artist so they could get stuff (and probably political/superiority points vis a vis other nobles or wealthy bourgeoisie). In fact, the big publisher model is a lot closer to it than kickstarter is. In the appearance, yes. But not in the essence. Capitalist investment is blind to the product itself, it's targeted toward a monetary return of investment. Of course, one can imagine publishers that are passionate in the object of their business, but it's not in the essence of this economic mechanism. Wheras Kickstarter is a form of mass patronage (like fundations) where the investor expects something different in return, be it an entertainment form, a social recognition or a the sentiment to help society (for medicine fundations, caritative) or being part of something bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I guess when these games get pirated the net-rage will be fiercer than normal. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) delete Edited April 19, 2012 by Krezack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Hmm, never really thought of it as patronage. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I'm a customer, not an investor. When I pay post-launch after thorough reviews/investigation, I win. So, how's ME3 working out for you? Pretty bad. That's why I'm now a lot more wary from now on buying games, indluding from "trusted" blockbuster developers. My point still stands though. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Yeah, you've just admitted your 'method' has failed you and yet it doesn't effect your point at all. Perhaps a smidge above "Ubisoft > kickstarter FACT!!! r00fles" on the cogent argument stakes, but only a smidge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero_or_more Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I guess when these games get pirated the net-rage will be fiercer than normal. Rage by who exactly? Words to avoid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 The righteous citizens of the Internet, of course. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 The people who like crpgs not created for the masses? “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delfosse Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I actually thought about it. If major game cracking groups turn out to be hardcore fans of cRPGs, they might refuse cracking the game. But then I'm probably dreaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I actually thought about it. If major game cracking groups turn out to be hardcore fans of cRPGs, they might refuse cracking the game. But then I'm probably dreaming. Yeah, definitely dreaming, they crack every game out there that can be, although the delay depends on the hype. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanoid Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 If by "cracking" one means "downloading the unprotected DRM-free files from the Internet," sure. L I E S T R O N GL I V E W R O N G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entrerix Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 i feel like anyone stealing kickstarted games is really beyond pathetic. Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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