A theological question of gaming

[pmp10]

I wrote a part of an pantheon.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam could be sects of the same religion if Yahweh God-father and Allah formed a pantheon.

Well, that's the thing. They all three worship the one and same God, regardless of what name they attached to their subject of worship. In broad terms, Judaism don't believe Messiah has been born yet. Christians believe He was born and died approx. 2000 years ago. Muslims believe Jesus, while being a messenger from God (Prophet) wasn't the Messiah and got a bunch of new texts to read.

Still the same God of Abraham and his offspring they are talking about (i.e. a pantheon of one). Hence my comment about the devil being in the detail. It seems more about semantics as to what constitutes "crucial tenants of faith"(sic). I.e. if a Christian acknowledges that Buddha lived and tought his ideas, does that make Christians and Buddhists the same religion?

 

Well no - Christians Muslims and Jews don't worship the same god.

The later religion may claim that it is as they'll maintain theirs is the better understanding but that matters little to the earlier religions which will refute that.

And the differences of theology are very significant.

Christian idea of a god exist in a trinity and promises resurrection of the body - those are cornerstones of the faith not found in Islam and Judaism and cannot be discounted as mere detail.

And let's leave Buddhism out of it as by western standards most of it qualifies more as a philosophy.

 

Why would there be any conflict in that case?

I see no problem in belief that different people go to different places after death.

In fact religions usually describe different forms of afterlife depending on the way our earthly lives go.

If good people can go to heaven and bad people to hell why would a separate afterlife for humans and dwarfs lead to a schism?

I still don't agree that in the example, Dwarves and Elves have the same religion (because of the differences in the tenets of faith). If the dwarven god says trees are filthy weeds and should be chopped down while the elven god says trees are holy spirits and should be hugged, you have some seriously different tenets of faith.

No that wouldn't be tenants of faith but some form of commandments or alternatively a practice of worship.

The nature of deity/pantheon is what's really described in tenants.

 

If you don't agree, I'll just declare you a heretic in the Church of Gorthology and keep disagreeing

Pfff, you'd have to write a Dogma and sign me up first.

[Zoraptor]

The same god/ different god thing does rather illustrate how the terminology of religion isn't really very specific, and there's no theological or practical way to tell who is 'right' with respect to whether it is the same god. There's a bunch of examples that don't really fit nicely into fixed definitions too; Mithras which was borrowed by the Romans from the Zoroastrians/ Persians. Same god, or different one? Part of the Roman pantheon (after all the Romans who worshipped him still worshipped their traditional gods too) or not? Was Atenism a wholly separate religion from traditional Egyptian polytheism, a sect or just some sort of supra Amun-Re heresy? Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophy? Where is the line drawn for religions- are Druze Muslim? Are Alawites? Who gets to decide? For that matter were Branch Davidians or Jim Jones' lot Christians?

 

I'm not sure if the real world were a fantasy setting that anyone would believe it, or would find it a bit obsessive (in the why did Tolkien spend so long designing Elvish languages? sense) since in most fictional works religion is just a tool for scene setting or plot development and has very little thought put into it beyond those requirements.

 

Christian idea of a god exist in a trinity [..] - those are cornerstones of the faith

 

Even the trinity is disputed, nontrinitarianism has existed almost as long as Christianity itself- and at one point Arianism was very popular in the Roman Empire. There are very few tenets that are absolutely undisputed, pretty much just god himself and Jesus being his son/ prophet.

[Hurlshort]

Well no - Christians Muslims and Jews don't worship the same god.

The later religion may claim that it is as they'll maintain theirs is the better understanding but that matters little to the earlier religions which will refute that.

And the differences of theology are very significant.

Christian idea of a god exist in a trinity and promises resurrection of the body - those are cornerstones of the faith not found in Islam and Judaism and cannot be discounted as mere detail.

 

The similarities between the way the three monotheistic religions define God far outweigh the differences. Your argument is weak. They all worship the same God. Just ask the King of Abyssinia.

[HoonDing]

The similarities between the way the three monotheistic religions define God far outweigh the differences. Your argument is weak. They all worship the same God. Just ask the King of Abyssinia.

You're asking for a fatwa.

[Orogun01]

Well no - Christians Muslims and Jews don't worship the same god.

The later religion may claim that it is as they'll maintain theirs is the better understanding but that matters little to the earlier religions which will refute that.

And the differences of theology are very significant.

Christian idea of a god exist in a trinity and promises resurrection of the body - those are cornerstones of the faith not found in Islam and Judaism and cannot be discounted as mere detail.

 

The similarities between the way the three monotheistic religions define God far outweigh the differences. Your argument is weak. They all worship the same God. Just ask the King of Abyssinia.

Plus they basically all read the same book and came out with their religions, Muslims and Christian take the word of their prophets as the guiding principle while Jews maintain (to an extent) the tradition. But, after 2000+years they have undoubtedly mutated their own practices and beliefs.

 

Also, Negus please.

[Calax]

Doesn't the Qua'ran acknowledge that Jesus is a prophet of god, just as the new testament acknowledges Moses and the Old testament?

[Cantousent]

I don't understand why folks are jumping on pmp.

 

For my part, I think it's absolutely misguided to claim that Christianity, Judaism, and Isalm are the same the religion. They are effectively different with one another sufficiently to be distinct in ways that subsets of each are not. In fact, the OED definition does not lead me to believe that these three are the same religion and I would question either the motive or the thought process of the editors otherwise. ...And, before I get accused of some sort of sectarian or extra-religious fervor, I'm not offended if folks think Roman Catholics are in some reality the same religion as Shiite Muslims. I just don't buy it. ...And I suspect that most folks don't either. It might be a PC statement, but that doesn't make it true.

 

It is the very essence of intelligence to be able to find similarities between two discrete items and differences between two like items. If the idea is to come up with agreed definitions, then I'm all for it, but I'd rather go for truth than trickery and clever arguments that Islam and Judaism are the same relgion reek of cleverness to me.

[Zoraptor]

I don't think anyone is jumping on pmp per se. He's undeniably correct on some aspects- the whole 'people of the book' aspect of Islam is basically an acknowledgement that Jews and Christians worship the same god as Muslims, but in a 'misguided' way (and yes, Jesus is an acknowledged prophet in Islam, just not The prophet), as opposed to dhimmi (if I remember the correct term) like Hindus. On the other hand a Jew would probably say that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same god as he does.

 

As I said, the primary problem is with the semantics. Is the Jew right, or is the Muslim? No way of knowing but plenty of room for argumentation about exactly where the boundary between sect/ heresy/ religion etc are set. Short of finding out how a genuinely disinterested 3rd party (aliens, perhaps) viewed things there isn't really an objective right/ wrong answer. Personally I suspect aliens would bundle all the Abrahamics together, or think we're just weird entities looking for any excuse to kill and dominate others and nick their stuff.

[Hurlshort]

I don't think anyone was trying to argue they are the same religion. It was more about having the same definition of God. Mohammad literally says Muslims worship the same God as Abraham and Jesus.

[Cantousent]

I kind of buy into what... Zora? said earlier that the Christians and Muslims are essentially worshipping the same God, whereas the Jews have a good case for having a different God. Granted, I think all three share the same God, but I can see the argument.

 

Really, history is rife with these sorts of distinctions. I almost said 'petty distinctions' but really distinctions are usually far less petty from an insider perspective.

 

Anyhow, I think it's funny that canon is often established after a splinter group starts mucking up things. Not only that, but even the passage of time and the sway of political, academic, and religious opion muck things up also. Look at the Septuagint. I have read some of it in Greek but I can't read Hebrew so I'm basically at the mercy of academes to give me the straight scoop. Unfortunately, I know some of them have some major political or religious axes to grind and every one of them is biased by a school of thought. So this really significant document is alternately held up as a gold standard or dismissed throughout history.

 

I love the conversation though. There just isn't anyone in real life who cares about this stuff enough to discuss it.

[aries101]

In the Dragon Age Universe, there is a church of some sorts, The Chantry who preaches the teachings of Andraste and The Chant of Light. However, there is no evidence that the Maker (the god? the universe) is real, it is all up to faith. And then, of course we have the Orzammer dwarfs who worships the Paragons and the ancestors, combined with the Dalish Elves, who worships some sort of ideal time of old in which the elves sort of ruled the land(s) in their own country?, or city, the Arlathan. The Witcher Universe also do not seem to have a maker, or god, or religious teachings of any persuasion. Of course, there are the nature loving druids who worships nature, but as I see it, they are just seen, in the game, as some sort of - nature worshippers - that are a bit weird, I think.

[Gizmo]

In the Dragon Age Universe, there is a church of some sorts, The Chantry who preaches the teachings of Andraste and The Chant of Light. However, there is no evidence that the Maker (the god? the universe) is real, it is all up to faith. And then, of course we have the Orzammer dwarfs who worships the Paragons and the ancestors, combined with the Dalish Elves, who worships some sort of ideal time of old in which the elves sort of ruled the land(s) in their own country?, or city, the Arlathan. The Witcher Universe also do not seem to have a maker, or god, or religious teachings of any persuasion. Of course, there are the nature loving druids who worships nature, but as I see it, they are just seen, in the game, as some sort of - nature worshippers - that are a bit weird, I think.

I have never played Dragon Age, but wouldn't a priest's (cleric's) spell casting indicate their deity's existence in that world?

 

IRRC a good bit of getting into Vizima involves getting the reverend's good graces. He is found at the Chapel of the Eternal Fire. Many NPCs in the outskirts hold him in regard, and won't speak frankly to Geralt without his approval.

 

Its a church, with a pastor, burial rites, and other rituals... One of which Geralt must complete for the Reverend; That appears like a religion to me.

 

_______________

BTW.. Did anyone here play Curse of the Azure Bonds? I'm reminded of the religion of Moander (some sort of plant god), and all of those cultists that kept popping up everywhere.

 

Why is there always a single mega church who's gods and demons are perfectly real and always throwing around divine inspiration? Even when it's left up in the air there's always something that pushes things more towards "exists" than not.

My guess is that in a fantasy setting, its a bit of a let down if they were just a misguided cult. (And it lends a bit of mystery to the priest's abilities... Just consider Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.) Edited October 26, 2011 by Gizmo

[Tale]

I have never played Dragon Age, but wouldn't a priest's (cleric's) spell casting indicate their deity's existence in that world?

Not anymore than regular magic. But it's a moot point because priests don't cast spells. And the one time one of them gets asked to, they point out their talismans have no power whatsoever.

[Gizmo]

I have never played Dragon Age, but wouldn't a priest's (cleric's) spell casting indicate their deity's existence in that world?

Not anymore than regular magic. But it's a moot point because priests don't cast spells. And the one time one of them gets asked to, they point out their talismans have no power whatsoever.

In DA... I read something about a Blessing... is that an option in the chantry (to some), but one that has no effects? (or does it?)

 

Generally clerics (in fantasy ~especially D&D settings) essentially ask (pray) for a boon and it happens; the undead run away, the injured get healed.

 

It would be neat to have a setting where there was actually more showmanship involved (mixed with medical know how); but I think it might still be disappointing if that were all there was to it.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Gizmo

[Tale]

I have never played Dragon Age, but wouldn't a priest's (cleric's) spell casting indicate their deity's existence in that world?

Not anymore than regular magic. But it's a moot point because priests don't cast spells. And the one time one of them gets asked to, they point out their talismans have no power whatsoever.

In DA... I read something about a Blessing... is that an option in the chantry (to some), but one that has no effects? (or does it?)

It does nothing.

 

Generally clerics (in fantasy ~especially D&D settings) essentially ask (pray) for a boon and it happens; the undead run away, the injured get healed.

All healing in Dragon Age comes from mages. Specialist healers get a bonus from spirits.

[Gizmo]

All healing in Dragon Age comes from mages. Specialist healers get a bonus from spirits.

Kind of odd and sounds unbalanced. Does that mean (and I suppose it does), that mages' have combat & healing & summoning spells? (IE. Effectively all mage/clerics)

Why would anyone want to play a warrior PC?

 

 

Is Bioware edging away from (fictional) religions in their adventure games?

[Volourn]

"I have never played Dragon Age, but wouldn't a priest's (cleric's) spell casting indicate their deity's existence in that world?"

 

D&D priests don't exist in mages.

 

People want to play warriors in DA b/c unlike D&D warriors they have lots of special powers to including AOA ones.

 

DA is not D&D.

 

p.s. BIO makes rpgs and action rpgs. Not adventure games.

[aries101]

There aer no clerics or priests similar to the clerics or priests in the Dragon Age Universe at all. The Chantry of course have female priests, and there are female Grand Clerics, but they do not heal or anything. Their Blessings do not do anything either.

 

Mages in DA Univerise can heal, but only at great cost to their personal stamina? At any rate, magic in DA's universe is restricted to mages. Mages are taken, some times violently, away from their families at a very yong age, often when they are 5 or 6 years old. They are then brought to the Circle in which they are trained to use their magic. If they fail what is called the Harrowing they are either made tranquil (all emotions are stripped away) or executed....

 

Magic is supposed to come from manipularing the air? arround the mages - sort of like how magic works in the Buffy Universe. Mages in both universes draw magic from the surroundings; mages in the DA Universe, however, can enhance their magic using lyrium. Mages in DA:O+ DA2 have elemental magic that does a great deal of damage, from fireball to summoning storm, from ice grasp to summoning blizzards. Some mages have earth like spells like earth quake and stone fist. All magic in DA universe comes from something called The Fade. Mages can consciously draw from this, hence the lock up in Circle Towers. In the Fade (dreamstate) there are something called demons, they're attracted to mages. If a mage attract a demon, he or she risks becoming an abomination. And such a Templar Order is created to slay these mage Abominations (in the game that is). If a mage falls the Harrowing and runs away, the Templar Order will hunt the mage down...

 

 

Also, in the DA universe, there are not any undeads similar to what there are in the D&D games. Mages can cast a spell called animate, but it means that they're raising the dead skeletons of fallen comraded to aid in the battle. In DA universe you fight darkspawn and other monsters as well as humans as enemies.

[HoonDing]

If a mage falls the Harrowing and runs away, the Templar Order will hunt the mage down...

If a mage fails the Harrowing, the mage is slain on the spot. The Harrowing takes place in the top room of the mage tower.

[Spider]

Kind of odd and sounds unbalanced. Does that mean (and I suppose it does), that mages' have combat & healing & summoning spells? (IE. Effectively all mage/clerics)

Why would anyone want to play a warrior PC?

 

While Mages have access to both combat, healing and utility spells (I don't recall any summoning spells), a mage that tries to to everything will be a very weak character. The DA system encourages specializing, at least to a degree. You want to build a combat mage that can have some healing, or a healer mage that can also do some utility etc. They are also fairly weak when it comes to being attacked. In my experience the tank is the most important character in DA, but the most powerful party you could make was one tank with three mages. So yes, they are powerful, more so than warriors and rogues, but not enough to make the other classes unplayable.

 

Also flavor.

[Gorth]

All magic in DA universe comes from something called The Fade. Mages can consciously draw from this, hence the lock up in Circle Towers. In the Fade (dreamstate) there are something called demons, they're attracted to mages. If a mage attract a demon, he or she risks becoming an abomination.

When I played DA:O the first time, I was very surprised not to run into Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Khorne in the fade. It was so much a cut and paste from Warhammer that it felt uncanny