Slowtrain Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 It appears to be a big enough problem that more people are pirating pc games than buying them. IN that situaition no one can reasonably blame publishers for implementing whatever DRM scheme they think might work. I don't really like DRM and I may choose not to buy a game that has a DRM scheme I find particularly annoying, but I no longer find myself able to condemn publishers for using even tightly restricting DRM. They need to do whatever they need to do. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 It appears to be a big enough problem that more people are pirating pc games than buying them. I'm not sure this is true. I think the overlap between paying customers and pirates is fairly large. Someone maybe buys 3-4 games a year and pirates 20. If what you meant to say is "more copies of games are pirated than are sold", then you have a point. The burning question is still how many sales are lost due to piracy. I've still to see a credible answer to that one. In the end though, more sales should equal better games so buying your games is a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The burning question is still how many sales are lost due to piracy. I've still to see a credible answer to that one. There is no credible answer to it, because even a substantial interview set would still be subject to interview bias. There simply is no way of determining what people would do if the piracy option were removed. Also, I think that way too much emphasis is placed on this - it's still people taking advantage of something people have worked to create without paying for it. Whether he would buy it if he didn't have the choice to get it for free is, if not irrelevant, the certainly not crucial to the equation. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendu Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2011/02/crysis-2.html They have no internal security. Just about any employee could have leaked that build, and they (the Yerlis) aren't exactly diplomatic about firing people. They should feel lucky that the source didn't leak, as that would be only a little bit more difficult to get out of the building. Crysis 2 Source Code Leaked Edited February 16, 2011 by Bendu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Depends on your viewpoint. If you're talking about the morality of it all, sure the act itself should be the focus point. If you're talking about the harm it does to the industry, the morality is completely inconsequential. I'm more interested in the harm, because the morality just doesn't matter much. If developers don't make money, they will stop making games. This is a bad thing. Thus as gamers it's in our best interest to assure developers don't stop making games. I don't think anyone disputes this. But when having a discussion where pro-pirates are involved, just saying "piracy is bad" won't accomplish anything. Pro-pirates are apparently fine with their choices and just stuffing dogma down their throats won't help. Instead, arguing why something is bad is more relevant. Point to the effects of piracy, instead to the morality. Unfortunately for this to be effective, there needs to be concrete evidence as to why. Just saying that there is five games pirated for every game sold doesn't really show this is a real problem (as in it cause real harm) for the industry. It indicates that it is, but it doesn't have to be. Afaik Gucci is still doing fine, despite a huge number of knock-offs being sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Depends on your viewpoint. If you're talking about the morality of it all, sure the act itself should be the focus point. If you're talking about the harm it does to the industry, the morality is completely inconsequential. Not really talking about the morality, the viewpoint is never going to be strictly moral/economic. The best available data (and even that is not too good) is known downloads vs. sales. Every other data is going to be skewed even further - and copyright law ties the compensation responsibility to "copies manufactured", not to "sales lost". So, by law, there is little incentive to research the matter further, those people who do research it will probably have an agenda, and those who answer the questions certainly will. I probably should carry this thought further, but I suddenly got really bored of the subject, so I'll leave it at the above. I guess the tl;cbat (can't be arsed to type) content is that due to the imperfect information available, the "sales lost" is really trivial and the way it looks is a lot more important. Also sounds like crytek might have issues getting a publisher in the future, if their internal security is on that level. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that makes even me start polishing my claws, and I'm not even involved with the games industry. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Geez, I knew things were sour at Crytek, but I didn't expect this. I'd heard a few story's in the industry circle but my god, leaking the source. I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The Millennials are a social breed, most games right now include some sort of social aspect. Unlike the Generation X who is very individualistic and self reliant, their gaming experience was private and personal. Which is what PC was back in the 90's, it was a personal possession. The games reflect that, now PC gaming is mostly MMOs. Developers put in social content because it's a nearly free way of providing 'content'. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorophx Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 http://www.iipa.com/2011_SPEC301_TOC.htm check out the priority watch list and read up on Russia and Ukraine Walsingham said: I was struggling to understand ths until I noticed you are from Finland. And having been educated solely by mkreku in this respect I am convinced that Finland essentially IS the wh40k universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Geez, I knew things were sour at Crytek, but I didn't expect this. I'd heard a few story's in the industry circle but my god, leaking the source. Yeah, and I know which one of us is going to get a copy of that baby, mr. programmer-man hint: it's you! DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorophx Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 btw, does obtaining the source code mean someone has gotten the game's engine? and can now build other games on its base? Walsingham said: I was struggling to understand ths until I noticed you are from Finland. And having been educated solely by mkreku in this respect I am convinced that Finland essentially IS the wh40k universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Ukraine is a modern-day Tortuga. The butthurt in that .pdf is exquisite. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2011/02/crysis-2.html They have no internal security. Just about any employee could have leaked that build, and they (the Yerlis) aren't exactly diplomatic about firing people. They should feel lucky that the source didn't leak, as that would be only a little bit more difficult to get out of the building. Crysis 2 Source Code Leaked Hah! Lovely. Should be a good read. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Geez, I knew things were sour at Crytek, but I didn't expect this. I'd heard a few story's in the industry circle but my god, leaking the source. Yeah, and I know which one of us is going to get a copy of that baby, mr. programmer-man hint: it's you! Not at all my bitter5 designer friend. I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 You two should share a room. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Programmers vs. Designers! Which one is more bitter and why? Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Programmers vs. Designers! Which one is more bitter and why? Programmers are always more negative. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Well, Draconian DRM is soon going to be coupled with daily body cavity searches for all employees when leaving work. (No, Mkreku, I don't mean for real - don't send that application just yet) You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Programmers vs. Designers! Which one is more bitter and why? Programmers. Not sure why, must be the soulless organizations they serve, stifling their urges or what not. For most of the engineers I went to school with, generally a lot were made a lot more bitter by schooling, so maybe it's that Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Artists are atleast as bitter as programmers. Not only do you never get enough time to make something look as good as it could do, but everyone and his grandmother has an opinion on how it should look. And sometimes you get fun instructions like "This has to be correct to 0.5mm precision." "Why? This isnt a CAD model, its just a table thats supposed to stand in the background and look inconspicious." "Mmhmm? Yeah, but we still need you to keep 0,5mm. Also, that thing you did last week, they want something less creative so youre gonna have to work this weekend and redo it cause I said itd be finished by monday monring" btw, does obtaining the source code mean someone has gotten the game's engine? and can now build other games on its base? It would take a massive amount of work to go through and understand all the code, but yes. Geez, I knew things were sour at Crytek, but I didn't expect this. I'd heard a few story's in the industry circle but my god, leaking the source. Yeah, and I know which one of us is going to get a copy of that baby, mr. programmer-man hint: it's you! Not at all my bitter5 designer friend. Alright, I totally believe that you wont get a copy of the code and go through it in order to look what kind of wizardry CryTek have in their engine. And neither will John Carmack or Tim Sweeney (Also, Im a 3D-muppet, not some pansy designer-wannabe.) Edited February 16, 2011 by Kaftan Barlast DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yes yes, you are both great.. Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Artists are atleast as bitter as programmers. Not only do you never get enough time to make something look as good as it could do, but everyone and his grandmother has an opinion on how it should look. And sometimes you get fun instructions like "This has to be correct to 0.5mm precision." "Why? This isnt a CAD model, its just a table thats supposed to stand in the background and look inconspicious." "Mmhmm? Yeah, but we still need you to keep 0,5mm. Also, that thing you did last week, they want something less creative so youre gonna have to work this weekend and redo it cause I said itd be finished by monday monring" btw, does obtaining the source code mean someone has gotten the game's engine? and can now build other games on its base? It would take a massive amount of work to go through and understand all the code, but yes. Geez, I knew things were sour at Crytek, but I didn't expect this. I'd heard a few story's in the industry circle but my god, leaking the source. Yeah, and I know which one of us is going to get a copy of that baby, mr. programmer-man hint: it's you! Not at all my bitter5 designer friend. Alright, I totally believe that you wont get a copy of the code and go through it in order to look what kind of wizardry CryTek have in their engine. And neither will John Carmack or Tim Sweeney (Also, Im a 3D-muppet, not some pansy designer-wannabe.) You're bitter. I have no interest is trawling through the crytek codebase, if I wanted to do that I'd go work at crytek. Right now I'm busy with the fifa codebase. Also, Crysis 2's tech ain't that impressive, they've a nice tool chain and editor, but I've worked with similar systems directly. There are pleanty of crytek papers on rendering techniques. So why bother? In short, I don't give a damn. At the end of the day, gamers like source engine, or crytek 3, or unreal engine 3 etc... None of them are perfect, I've heard negative things about all those engines, no engine is perfect, and the same techniques crop up time and time again. Sometimes they're some clever things, but if you're just code monkey'in where's the creativity? I don't have a desire to see it, genuinely. I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 As an artist Ive picked up alot of things by poking at other peoples stuff, fetching assets from the framebuffer etc. But maybe programmers are more honest and moral people? DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorophx Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 honest and moral somehow I'm feeling you mean something else when you say that Walsingham said: I was struggling to understand ths until I noticed you are from Finland. And having been educated solely by mkreku in this respect I am convinced that Finland essentially IS the wh40k universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshape Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 As an artist Ive picked up alot of things by poking at other peoples stuff, fetching assets from the framebuffer etc. But maybe programmers are more honest and moral people? Sure, I think you forget that I've been doing that with mentoring for 3+ years . I came up with Crate 3.0 technology. Crate 4.0 - we shall just have to wait and see.Down and out on the Solomani RimNow the Spinward Marches don't look so GRIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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