FO: NV (General Discussion)

[Monte Carlo]

My inner child is weeping. I understand being happy with New Vegas. I understand wanting more. But the last thing I would like to see is Fallout becoming Call of Duty and Obsidian turning into Infinity Ward or Treyarch.

 

Some people actually want that.

 

Of course they do, in the same way that Bioware fans want emo-romance simulators with pointy ears and fakespeare.

 

OTOH what's wrong with a PA FPS game? Nothing, it would be awesome. After all, Fallout: Tactics was awesome. Using a setting for different genres is fine as long as you are up-front about it (::cough:: McBio ::cough: and not pretend that your new product is in fact an evolution as opposed to a cross-genre spinoff.

[Tale]

My inner child is weeping. I understand being happy with New Vegas. I understand wanting more. But the last thing I would like to see is Fallout becoming Call of Duty and Obsidian turning into Infinity Ward or Treyarch.

 

Some people actually want that.

 

Of course they do, in the same way that Bioware fans want emo-romance simulators with pointy ears and fakespeare.

 

OTOH what's wrong with a PA FPS game? Nothing, it would be awesome. After all, Fallout: Tactics was awesome. Using a setting for different genres is fine as long as you are up-front about it (::cough:: McBio ::cough: and not pretend that your new product is in fact an evolution as opposed to a cross-genre spinoff.

I would see nothing wrong with a Penny-Arcade FPS. But what does that have to do with Obsidian focusing on churning out new Fallout games?

 

Personally, I really like the diversity that Obsidian has brought.

[HoonDing]

Yeh well, I'm still waiting for that Cass & Veronica Romance mod.

 

Although, in case of FO3 modding, "Romance" obviously has a completely different meaning than for the average BioWarian.

[sorophx]

Did the US invade China during the Great War?

yes, they did. I think it was in one of the holotapes in FO2 (or in the bible)

[Tigranes]

The game balance has become very odd for me. I started as an explosives character with 9AGL/PER and bumping that up, with only ~25 guns as backup. I used pistols and sniper exclusively the first time and wanted to differentiate. At first it was very fun, lots of exps to be had from powder gangers as well, but then I picked up Veronica and with companions it's harder to control the enemy mobs so you can effectively target your bombings.

 

Actually, the largest problem is probably that I found the Paladin Toaster. Even on Very Hard with XP modded down she ends up killing everything, and I mainly amuse myself by going backup with a Flamer and the Pyro perk (but even then, i feel it does way too little damage compared to FO1/2). It feels like a general limitation in Fo3/FNV, but it might well be my SPECIAL distribution and the way I play - no matter what I do pistols and sniper emerge as the clearly superior option, as opposed to heavier guns, melee or unarmed.

 

Perhaps next time I really will go for a high-STR, dumb-as-hell, energy weapons guy.

[LadyCrimson]

Yeah, while good builds can be decent for most weapon types, the pistols & rifles definitely feel highly favored at the moment. Energy weapons would be the same, except for the DT issue with those, which I think they're planning on changing. I just haven't been able to like energy weapon builds...maybe it's their gun sounds. It's not as satisfying to me for some reason. But I've pretty much given up on making the overall combat balance super difficult (for non-melee) builds, I just focus on quests, random mayhem and letting my companions amuse me by killing everything. Lucky for me, such amuses me greatly, and seemingly endlessly. hehe

 

I'm still convinced weapons matter more than clvl or skill-lvl. Sure skills make for less sway and more overall dmg, but it's still possible to kill almost everything at lvl 5-8 as long as you get your hands on the gear, and so much of the basic higher lvl gear is super easy to get at those lvls. It's just not a game designed for truly difficult combat.

Edited November 23, 2010 by LadyCrimson

[sorophx]

I'm trying to imagine a third-person Fallout game, that is designed like Tactics: with missions rather than an open-world big area thing, with a very deep combat system. something like Alpha Protocol but better and without QTEs. and in my mind it's the best RPG ever...

[Tigranes]

it's still possible to kill almost everything at lvl 5-8 as long as you get your hands on the gear

 

To be honest this is a problem that firstly permeates all Bethesda games Morrowind-onwards; they're all built on that same underlying mechanic of open world exploration and character development (yes, even when they use SPECIAL) where up to level ~5 you generally operate on a principle of scarcity and have to manage limited resources in order to stay above the line; then, the mechanics stay exactly the same, but you start accumulating the money/skill/gear to raise pretty much most/all such resources to comfortable levels, then around level 10, usually, you hit a magic point where the development trajectory is officially broken, and your character is basically a walking hulk of overcompensatory resources that can bring its mighty arm to bear on most challenges.

 

For instance, in FO3/FNV design, it's very difficult to fail any skill check or miss out on loot/etc in any given situation after level 5, unless maybe you are playing a 1 INT character or something like that. Because of a combination of (a) multiple skill check solutions offered, (b) number of points you get, © magazines, (d) overall difficulty of checks, etc., by between level 10 and 14, INT withstanding, these checks as a whole become not something where there is a real possibility of failure, but just a question of which hoops you have to jump to succeed. I'm overstating the case here a bit because there are certain areas where you really do have to get past 75/100 checks and such, but really failure, in a small or major sense, recedes completely from your gameplay in these games at that point. And considering in vanilla FNV you reach that level less than halfway through the game, well.

 

That said I think FNV is most suited to craft a more challenging experience; it's harder to just rob the world like Morrowind, level scaling isn't Oblivionistic, and FO3... I don't really remember that game anymore, but certainly VATS invulnerability "feature" was a contributing factor. If only FNV companions weren't brokenly powerful half the time, and you don't level up after about 3 mobs of moderately difficult enemies, and doctors actually charged the exorbitant fees they surely should.

[LadyCrimson]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Except my experience with Morrowind, iirc at least, was that it was a little more difficult because it did have scaling enemies as well as you having to at least raise skills for certain types of decent success. My issue with NV is I could win all combats keeping weapon skills at 20, and I'm not including the peaceful way out of the endgame, either. I've mod-enforced myself to stay at lvl 1 and I could still win general combat much of the time based on gear alone.

 

IMO....

 

--Sniping should have accuracy penalties for extreme non-VATS distance shots that s-lvl & perks cannot alleviate.

--Firing any weapon while actually moving/packpedaling/running should also have more unavoidable accuracy penalties (non-VATS).

--Companions should never raise to 100 in tagged weapon skills (I believe their non-tag skills never get higher which is why most are terrible at sneaking). Leave them at 50 or 75 at most. Their crit. dmg multipliers should be lowered. They have the advantage of being AI-speed aim-bots after all.

 

ps. I'm not saying I like scaling enemies to make things tougher, btw

Edited November 23, 2010 by LadyCrimson

[Cantousent]

I think the solutions that the more serious/hard core gamers would suggest here wouldn't make the game better overall. Don't get me wrong, I completely believe in arguing for what you want in the game, it's just that everything works so well that I don't want a cure that's worse than the problem.

 

I hate scaling with a passion. I hates it hates it hates it. I know you were explicitly not suggesting it, LC, just sayin'.

 

I also think leveling npc weapon skills to 100 is *not* bad because it allows the player to fashion non combat heavy PCs. Now, maybe not all joinable NPCs should have 100 weapon skills, but some might end up being the heavy.

 

Similarly, I think the slow leveling scheme, while it might appeal to a lot of locals here, is a completely idiotic design.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of things that I would suggest as changes for the game, but complining them would actually entail effort on my part. Ugh. I might do it anyhow as my own post mortem. After all, I like wasting my breath. Why else would I post here?

[LadyCrimson]

I don't hate enemy scaling with a passion, but I do recall purposely avoiding leveling in MW & Oblivion because it happened too rapidly and unexpectedly.

 

The point about companion weapon skills/crit multipliers is that they'd still be quite strong when they're not lvl 100, because they're AI aimbots who don't have to use a control pad/mouse and eyes/hands to aim and a little more binary sway isn't going to make their scripts super-weak. They'd miss slightly more often, use a little more ammo because of it, do a little less dmg. and less instant-death shots...but they'd still be pretty powerful and you could still rely on them fairly well for non-combat builds.

 

As to difficulty/xp....we've already gone thru that one. I'd never suggest a mandatory change for that. They could implement an optional one perhaps, because not everyone is playing on the moddable PC. Something akin to the Diablo2 single-player /players8 thing, perhaps, only you could have it be another difficulty option ala Hardcore, to cut xp. gained in half or whatever.

[Cantousent]

I hates scaling. I would never suggest it and it might be one of the few things that guides me to avoid a purchase sight unseen.

[C2B]

For instance, in FO3/FNV design, it's very difficult to fail any skill check or miss out on loot/etc in any given situation after level 5,

 

That... wasn't really any different in the originals. And yes you can easily miss out on the skill checks if you do not upgrade the respecitve skills.

 

The big difference is that you can easily bypass that with skill magazines. I would really like a mod that removes them.

Edited November 23, 2010 by C2B

[Labadal]

Don't buy them, and when you find one you can sell it.

[Tigranes]

Cant, simple thing though - if you're going to have a hardcore mode, then you might as well do it properly, esp. if it doesn't take too much extra work. I mean, stimpacks healing over time is a great move. If that was couple up with a few minor tweaks, like slight reduction in XP / ammo drop it would have been nice. I'm not asking for too much, because if you go too far people who don't go for such challenges can't play their way.

 

re: skill checks, where do you use them otherwise? Survival is (still) largely useless, I'd put up Barter and it's nice to see it used in dialogues but you have way too much money anyway. You could put up 2 or even 3 combat skills but again that would just make you a walking shoeless God of War. If you have a moderate investment in lockpick/science/repair/etc then you're usually sweet on every such challenge. I feel the special system is designed for making hard choices, not a superman of all trades.

 

Don't get me wrong, original games had their own kinds of balance problems - power armour, gauss rifles, caravan raid money, etc., etc. Not really comparing here, just thinking FO3/FNV could be better games if the skills weren't so generous both in the points you get and the hurdles you get.

[Pop]

I don't know if anybody has posted this yet, but here's a neat little development: Someone made a mod allowing you to ally with the BoS when working for House the way you can when working with the NCR. Allegedly the modder found a bunch of disabled-but-still-present content within NV's files and reactivated it the way the KOTOR2 Restored modders did.

[LadyCrimson]

Multiple companions....one overpowered companion can be a joyful hoot....having two op'd human npc's is (mostly) solid, amusing fun as well, since it feels like they're working as a team, in a way.

But having three human companions becomes less fun and more just random chaos, especially verbally. I think I'll stick to two...one that I keep all the time and the other slot for rotating the others in and out.

[funcroc]

Dead Money fact sheet

Description:

As the victim of a raw deal you must work alongside three other captured wastelanders to recover the legendary treasure of the Sierra Madre Casino. In Dead Money, your life hangs in the balance as you face new terrain, foes, and choices. It is up to you how you play your cards in the quest to survive.

 

Story:

Welcome to the Sierra Madre Casino! The casino

[Labadal]

Every time I see that picture I think of Borderland.

[LadyCrimson]

Every time I see that picture I think of Borderland.

Same here.

 

They're raising the lvl cap? I hope it only applies to the DLC because the vanilla game doesn't need a higher lvl cap re:skills and such. Slaves to the clvl #....

[J.E. Sawyer]

The big difference is that you can easily bypass that with skill magazines. I would really like a mod that removes them.

You get +10 from skill magazines unless you have Comprehension, which takes it to +20. You can't ever jump a whole "bracket" of difficulty and unless you've invested some points in a skill, you're really only going to be making checks in the sub-60 range even with Comprehension.

[Gorgon]

Shouldn't that be 20-45 range, with no points increased in that skill.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Gorgon

[pmp10]

You get +10 from skill magazines unless you have Comprehension, which takes it to +20.

But why wouldn't you take comprehension? Seeing as it saves you 10 skill points per skills in which you have even a minor investment in. That's almost a level worth of skill points, and non combat skills checks are plenty.

You can't ever jump a whole "bracket" of difficulty and unless you've invested some points in a skill, you're really only going to be making checks in the sub-60 range even with Comprehension.

Except with the magic clothes and comprehension-boosted magazines you can.

[Cantousent]

I don't know. If you have advanced warning and want to game the system, you can game the system. It's good that magazines are weightless, but carrying around a bunch of different clothes for the off chance opportunity to use them in a dialogue skill check sounds extreme, and I think designing a game to to ward off extreme behavior is probably unwise. In Fallout 3, I had a huge reservoir of skills. One of the things I mentioned about the game at the time was the number of skills I had at 100. I've been trying to break the skill pool this game, and it just isn't happening.

 

Now, I will own to the fact that Comprehension is a no brainer choice. It's so universally useful that it work in every build. By using comprehension, folks will probably have no problem passing the vast majority of dialogue checks in the game.

 

However, some of that relies on planning on the part of the player and some of it also relies on advanced knowledge. If you're on subsequent runs, look stuff up in walkthroughs, or use the editor to plan for situations about which you would not otherwised be forwarned, then it's not a design flaw.

 

Tig, I'm not ingorning your comments. I've just been thinking about them since I read them and trying to come up with a cogent response. I don't want to blindly defend the game, which is absolutely useless, but I don't want to dredge up complaints just to establish street cred either. Now that I've spent so much time playing, I want to conisder my response before posting it. :Cant's rueful smile icon:

[pmp10]

I don't know. If you have advanced warning and want to game the system, you can game the system. It's good that magazines are weightless, but carrying around a bunch of different clothes for the off chance opportunity to use them in a dialogue skill check sounds extreme, and I think designing a game to to ward off extreme behavior is probably unwise.

Those clothes have a weight of one and can be changed instantly with hotkeys.

I really wouldn't call their use any more extreme than magazines.

The only problem is finding them in game but if you played fallout 3 you'll know where to look.