Dragon Age 2

[Volourn]

"Volo is quite outspoken that game developers are NOT indebted to the fans.

 

It's a selfish decision because it is. It's not a derogatory statement, but rather that Ben did what was best for himself.

 

 

Volourn thinks most fans are stupid for indicating that any dev "owes" the fans anything."

 

You win.

 

 

"If he can afford to be so selective then good on him. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is."

 

Him choosing to move on is no big deal. Good on him. he did nothing wrong. the big deal is trying to place him on some moreal pedestal simply because he quit his job at a company a poster hates. It's not heroic to quit. It's a selfish decision (and nothing wrong with him being selfish in this situation btw) that he made because he flet it as best FOR HIM. That's cool; but not heroic or moral (or immoral).

 

I'm sure BIO will continue to truck along (I doubt he's the first or the last em,ployee they'll lose). And, I'm sure he'll be fine as qwell since he must have been doing something right if he worked at the same company for 10 years.

 

 

"and staying with Bio with that kind of attitude towards DA2 and the company's policy would be best for Bio and it's fans? it's not selfish, it's the only decision that makes sense "

 

Plenty of people stay at jobs they personally dislike and do a heck of job. And, I doubt working on a game that he may not completely approve is as torturous as those. He didn't seem to mind working at a company resposnible for non rpgs like SS and MDK2. L0LZ

Edited October 8, 2010 by Volourn

[RPGmasterBoo]

Fact: he quit his job.

 

Fact: he voiced his opinion that Mass Effect was not the way DA2 should develop.

 

The two are only partially related. Many other things probably factored into his decision. It wasn't made as a moral stance against Bioware stupidifying their games - he just didn't see himself working on such a project.

 

But that's all unimportant.

 

What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so.

[Volourn]

"What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so."

 

Who says the BIO brass didn't listen to him? They have hundreds of employees including some long time senior employees. Just ebcause they didn't do what HE wanted them to do doesn't mean BIO was disrepescting or ignoring his opinions. They made a decision they felt was best for the company.

 

They have hundreds of employees' jobs to worry about so theya re going to dow aht they feel best. Sometimes that means doing what Employee A wnats and sometimes telling Employee A they are going a different direction.

 

Bottom line is he took his ball, and went home. Nothing wrong with that but dontry to make himto some heroic angel fighting the good fight and BIo into the Darkest Devil to ever commit evil because they didn't suck his know what.

 

The anti big business contingent is hilarious.

 

What's funny is DA2 is likely to be a success (depsite, again, me disagreeing personally with some of their changes) and then what? Nothing will change, anyways.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I agree that its likely to be a success. That of course, doesn't make the game good.

 

I believe they're on a downward spiral. They can strip and recycle the former BG formula for a while more, although without party based gameplay its so down to its bare bones that they have to go cross genre to make the meat - combat, playable. ME went shoota, DA2 is going hacknslash.

That sort of stuff gets real old, real fast as they're likely to find out by the time ME3 is out.

[Tale]

My concern is that it might be too much of putting your eggs in one basket. Even the people who support the change seem to defend it as "Dragon Age needs to be more like Mass Effect." Lack of diversity can be strong for a while, but it tends to backfire unexpectedly. That can be sooner or later.

 

That assumes, of course, that the similarities between the properties will continue to converge as everyone seems to fear or hope they will (whichever side your camp is on).

Edited October 8, 2010 by Tale

[Volourn]

"That of course, doesn't make the game good."

 

Our personal opinions are irrelevant here. BIo is gonna do what they feel will make them the most successful. As long as the majority of customors are happy with the product is all that matters and that's what makes it good.

 

Also, btw, the fact something is popular doesn't make it bad which is a simply cocnept that many arrogant people seem to be unable to fathom.

[Tigranes]

Leaving aside the amazing level of black-and-white in Vololand in general, I'm on his side of the fence I think - look, Brent as a game developer, but also in personal terms, does not agree with the direction Dragon Age is taking. Big deal.

 

There gonna be devs who agree with this, devs who don't, in and out of BIO. Besides which, devs aren't automatically the best people to say where the industry should go, mainly because they're right up close to it and will always look at it from the production side of things. Sure they will know their stuff, generally, but that doesn't mean the same thing...

 

Obviously personally I agree with what Brent says and DA2 is doing its best to lose my money every day, but this doesn't automatically invalidate the way Bio are going, or show that Bio have become a soulless corporate eeeeevil thing (I mean, they probably are more 'corporate' than 10 years ago, but that's what happens when you get an extra 100 people in there).

[entrerix]

i'm going to hold off judgment till the game is released, but i was hoping for DA2 to be like DA1 with a more sophisticated combat system and less combat overall, or at least have the combat areas be smaller in length so you dont have time to get bored. It should be 3-5 different unique-feeling fights, then a boss encounter, not 20 fights and a boss encounter.

 

i was definitely not looking forward to them making DA2 an action game. but if its good i'll enjoy it nonetheless. I just worry it might be like jade empire, I hated that game.

[HoonDing]

Hack 'n slash is now mostly used as a derogatory term for action games where one can mindlessly click through hordes of enemies withotu any strategy or tactics.

 

This is nonsense. Hack 'n slash games like Blade of Darkness, Demon's Souls, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, God of War and even Bayonetta require plenty of tactics and different strategies to beat different types of enemies, which is ironally unlike DA:O where one suffesful tactic wins the entire game.

 

It is untrue, anyway, that DA2 is going to become a full-fledged fantasy action game. Jade Empire already proved that BioWare cannot do action combat right.. even Mass Effect 2 combat is largely just Gears of War with nicer bricks to hide behind. Going down teh action route in earnest would be just shooting themselves in the foot. BioWare knows what they do best (notice how on the BSN Jade Empire has already been dumped in the "legacy" section) and will keep doing what they do best.

Edited October 8, 2010 by virumor

[Volourn]

"Jade Empire already proved that BioWare cannot do action combat right."

 

Wrong. It proved that BIo can do Action RPG combat right. i'd take JE combat over KOTOR combat any time anywhere.

 

The reason why JE doesn't get a sequel is because it sold a measily 1.5mil copies instead of the usual 3mil copies BIO RPG games tend to sell - not because of lack quality.

 

R00fles!

Edited October 9, 2010 by Volourn

[Thorton_AP]

and staying with Bio with that kind of attitude towards DA2 and the company's policy would be best for Bio and it's fans? it's not selfish, it's the only decision that makes sense

 

No one here is saying he should have stayed with BioWare. Not even Volourn.

[Thorton_AP]

What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so.

 

What about the experienced game designers that embraced the change?

[Volourn]

Boo disagrees with them so they are dumb.

 

Or they are cowards who are lying for the sake of it because hey have no morals. Because they disagree with Boo.

[RPGmasterBoo]

What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so.

 

What about the experienced game designers that embraced the change?

 

They need the money.

 

Jokes aside, designers don't decide what's popular or what can make money, which is the one and only point of this change - someone thought this way DA would be a better cash cow. Nothing to do with creativity. Also this way its more easily adaptable to consoles, which is again the same thing - more moneyz.

 

You're talking about it as though it was a creative issue.

[Labadal]

I don't dislike EA or anything(I own many EA games), but we have to ask ourselves how much of this has to do with EA wanting games on multiple platforms and be accessible to a large audience. I think they play a big part in this.

[Spider]

The reason why JE doesn't get a sequel is because it sold a measily 1.5mil copies instead of the usual 3mil copies BIO RPG games tend to sell - not because of lack quality.

 

Where are you getting these numbers from? The only figure I can find says it sold 0,71 million on the XBox. Ports typically sell less on the PC, so I'd be surprised if it surpassed a million.

[Junai]

What is important: he's an experienced game designer, thus his opinion should carry some weight. I personally agree with him. If I was a boss in Bioware I'd value an experienced employees opinion.

More importantly: all that crap about "streamlining gameplay", "innovation" and a thousand other excuses for Bioware's failure to truly innovate on their original formula gains weight when its subtly pointed out by the very people working on their project - or refusing to do so.

 

What about the experienced game designers that embraced the change?

 

They need the money.

 

Jokes aside, designers don't decide what's popular or what can make money, which is the one and only point of this change - someone thought this way DA would be a better cash cow. Nothing to do with creativity. Also this way its more easily adaptable to consoles, which is again the same thing - more moneyz.

 

You're talking about it as though it was a creative issue.

 

Oh man..

 

A market survey might indicate what people like, but I believe people enjoy what the devs enjoyed working on. People don't know what they like. An artist's inspiration and joy is reflected in his work, which is *probably* why I still think the first Infinity-engine games are more enjoyable than more modern graphically advanced products. It's a bit like when you come home to mommie and eat her food. She enjoys to cook when her family is around - and so for every poor sod out there, mommie's meatballs sets the standard for yumminess.

 

I don't think "more moneyz and sales" necessarily indicate that the audience is happy. It might as well be the big time marketing. Eventually, when there's just EA left, and you get to choose between Soccer, some monstrous MMORPG, DA5 and a golf-game, people are gonna purchase these games for lack of alternatives. Doesn't mean they're the *best*. God knows how many delicate wonders died out of the world in lack of money to survive.

 

Cash cows pass into oblivion, but inspired artworks never die.

So far, nothing tells me that DA2 is gonna be the next big thing.. *shrug*

 

J.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Junai

[Volourn]

"So far, nothing tells me that DA2 is gonna be the next big thing.. "

 

That's what people around her claimed about the first DA. I rememebr the so called backlash of that marketing scheme , and allt he bashing including the talk about how the game would be mega fail. ERROR!

 

By the way, what 'next big thing' even mean in context? It's such a meaningless phrase. Much like words like epic, C&C, and revolutionary. They mean nothing because nobody really knows what they mean.

[sorophx]

you're right, DA sure wasn't big, at least in my book. hell, none of my friends played it, they couldn't even be bothered to try a cracked version, that's how bad DA is. they bought ME2 though, and enjoyed it, which is very strange...

[WorstUsernameEver]

you're right, DA sure wasn't big, at least in my book. hell, none of my friends played it, they couldn't even be bothered to try a cracked version, that's how bad DA is.

 

Such an enormous and reliable sample size..

[sorophx]

that was an example of "context"

[Volourn]

"you're right, DA sure wasn't big, at least in my book. hell, none of my friends played it, they couldn't even be bothered to try a cracked version, that's how bad DA is. they bought ME2 though, and enjoyed it, which is very strange..."

 

Your friends (and mine) mean absolutely crap. DA sold absically as much as ME2. Perhaps your friends prefer action rpgs to rpgs? L0LZ

 

DA sold more than that piece of crap BG and that piece of crap KOTOR to be sure. That's how bad those games are.

 

Bottom line is 'next best thing' is an absolutely meaningless phrase. Period.

[RPGmasterBoo]

A market survey might indicate what people like, but I believe people enjoy what the devs enjoyed working on. People don't know what they like. An artist's inspiration and joy is reflected in his work, which is *probably* why I still think the first Infinity-engine games are more enjoyable than more modern graphically advanced products. It's a bit like when you come home to mommie and eat her food. She enjoys to cook when her family is around - and so for every poor sod out there, mommie's meatballs sets the standard for yumminess.

 

I don't think "more moneyz and sales" necessarily indicate that the audience is happy. It might as well be the big time marketing. Eventually, when there's just EA left, and you get to choose between Soccer, some monstrous MMORPG, DA5 and a golf-game, people are gonna purchase these games for lack of alternatives. Doesn't mean they're the *best*. God knows how many delicate wonders died out of the world in lack of money to survive.

 

Cash cows pass into oblivion, but inspired artworks never die.

So far, nothing tells me that DA2 is gonna be the next big thing.. *shrug*

 

J.

 

Oh I agree. Every experienced gamer can immidiately tell apart a game that was a labor of love, but thats the sort of thing I don't actively expect, just hope for.

 

IMO DA, ME, NWN and KOTOR all played safe, thus to me they're all more or less cash cows. DA2 doubly so.

 

@Volourn: much anger in you.

Edited October 9, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Volourn]

"IMO DA, ME, NWN and KOTOR all played safe, thus to me they're all more or less cash cows. DA2 doubly so."

 

Disagreed. if BIo wanted to play it save they would have stuck with SP D&D games instead NWN was heavily fooused on the toolset, DA and ME were there own creation, and well.. KOTOR is the only exception of a game that actually played it safe. Then again, even SW games aren't always successful.

 

I don't know how people can claim the abiove four were 'safe' but BG wasn't. Come on, now.

 

 

"Every experienced gamer can immidiately tell apart a game that was a labor of love, but thats the sort of thing I don't actively expect, just hope for."

 

No more than the other games. Just a note, 'labour of love' does NOT equal 'games I personally love'. That's silly talk. It's also another meaningless phrase that doesn't mean anything.

 

P.S. BG as it was wasn't even BIO's choice 100%. They didn't even plan on making a D&D game when they started working on it. LMAO

Edited October 9, 2010 by Volourn

[meomao]

A question to Volourn. What are the things you do not like in DA2's design direction?