Dragon age discussion

[CoM_Solaufein]

A simple glitch. I was able to level up 3 times then I got bored doing it and decided to go get the scrolls. Much easier to use the console to level up when the need arises.

[Monte Carlo]

I'm wondering if we have any more extended battles like this.

 

LOL! Redcliffe is a saturday night pub fight in comparison to the rest of the game!

[HoonDing]

Mages really shouldn't be nerfed. They're already extremely squishy, being able to disintegrate & freeze mooks is supposed to compensate for this. There's supposed to be a reason why they're locked up in a tower.

 

Fixing the AI would be better. I.e. enemies quit attacking Force Fielded allies, and go after the mages first in combat rather than attacking the person that take longest to kill. In both my playthroughs either Morrigan or my mage simply ran all over the place owning everyone without punishment. Imagine doing that with Edwin in Baldur's Gate.

Edited December 8, 2009 by virumor

[Hell Kitty]

I guess it's just that things have come so far since I first sat down to play a video game on a home computer, some 30+ years ago, that I'm constantly amazed at how far we've come.

 

I guess it depends on what games you've played. The stand-on-the-spot-while-waving-your-arms-around stuff that's typical of modern RPGs isn't terribly impressive next to cutscene conversations in most modern action/adventure type stuff. The in-game cutscene animation/direction in the Metal Gear Solid series is miles ahead of any other game, and having played those games nothing much else seems very impressive to me.

 

I literally looked away from my computer made an exasperated sound when it started. My wife even asked me what was wrong. By the time the song was done, I thought to myself that it was really actually quite good.

 

I felt the same way. Leliana's animations and facial expressions put me off at first, but I thought the reactions from other characters was great.

 

Anyway I've really enjoyed this game, already completed it twice and it just occurred to me that this is the first Bioware RPG where I've really liked all the party characters (as opposed to liking some and not giving a damn about the rest). I didn't think I'd end up liking Shale but it turns out

she

is one of my favs. I'm like the opposite of Monte Carlo, more interested in characters and adventure and what not, playing the thing on easy because I don't really care about combat.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Hell Kitty

[Tigranes]

Just fix the bugs okay? Leave the so called "balancing" alone.

 

Balancing is just as necessary as bugfixing, as long as it's done right.

[Monte Carlo]

Strange, for the first time in this game (Level 15 Human Rogue, only Orzammar and Sacred Ashes of the major quests left to do) I'm short of cash. I have Tier 4 locks and Imoen-Chick has Tier 4 stealing. We have embarked on crimewave across Ferelden, no container unlocked and no pocket unpicked - plus I've done all the rogue quests (i.e. the barman and Slim) I can up to this point in the game.

 

And I'm still short of dough - possibly because I'm trying to fit every NPC out in half decent gear (more difficult than it looks). Mind you I do have a humungously massive stock of poisons, bombs and poultices.

 

It's absolutely true about the Warden Armour by the way - it scales. Five levels ago I flogged it to Mikhail Dryden and poor old Alistair had to suffer the comedy Juggernaut armour, which looks like a suit of armour you might see decorating a castle corridor in an old episode of Scooby Doo. Anyhoo, just bought it back (for 27 gold for the lot - ouch!) and it's now Tier 7 Dragonbone Nutter Turbo B*stard armour, the boots give +50 stamina still. That will probably see him through to the end of the game.

 

Still worried about cash - pickpocketing is sort of worth it, but you really do nick as much crap as you do decent stuff. There are a couple of Tier 4 locks in the Templar's Quarters of the mage tower with half-decent stuff in and the lockbox behind the bar in the Gnawed Noble is like

Conan's Armoury... best one yet

.

 

Cheers

MC

[HoonDing]

I noticed the level scaling with the Helmet of Honnleath, supposedly the best helmet in the game. It goes from Tier 1 all the way to Tier 7 depending when one goes to fetch Shale.

 

It's like Oblivion, with the difference that nothing changes visibly, only stats change. So all those Denerim thugs might as well come charging in Dragonbone armour.

 

EDIT: dyslexia

Edited December 8, 2009 by virumor

[Monte Carlo]

^ Dammit, I did Shale first, have had the helm all game. And now had to give it to Alistair for the +2 STR so he could wear the warden's armour.

 

Drat.

 

Luckily, my rogue is a handsome devil and looks rather dapper sans headgear for now. All the rogue helmets look especially silly.

[Spider]

but then I load up DA and BAM, I get hit by a user license agreement? What does this mean?! Have I just been auto-nerfed?!

 

I think that's just The Edge downloading, not the patch.

[Pidesco]

I got the EULA but not The Edge. What does that mean? Should I be thankful I don't have to listen to U2?

[Guest Slinky]

I got the EULA but not The Edge. What does that mean? Should I be thankful I don't have to listen to U2?

I had to download edgy in the DLC page manually.

 

Looks like the new patch bugged rally. Everytime you go to new area with rally on, you get extra 10 attack and defense. Someone in Bioforums had over 300 in both.

[Monte Carlo]

I have at last found a helmet that looks half-decent.

 

The Executioner's Helm

found as part of Inoen Chick's quest, my dialogue choices made her disappear, I suspect she'll be back. Anyway, along with the Recurve Bow was the Executioner's Helm, not stellar but it's lowish STR requirement and +25 stamina make it reasonable for a rogue, plus it looks downright sinister.

 

[Gromnir]

I'm wondering if we have any more extended battles like this.

 

LOL! Redcliffe is a saturday night pub fight in comparison to the rest of the game!

 

in terms of actual duration, redcliffe is probable the longest single battle... which is what makes it so taxing for wrong built & low-level parties that is unaware they need a large stock o' potions. in every other portion o' the game you may inch towards daylight... fight & rest, fight & rest. heck, those lyrium veins that show up in various places significantly ameliorate the player's need for potions as the mage types may re-charge on-the-fly and then heal party or smote foes. no such option is available in redcliffe. also, aristes did dahlish first, if we recall correct... and then the mage tower.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[jaguars4ever]

I'm wondering if we have any more extended battles like this.

 

LOL! Redcliffe is a saturday night pub fight in comparison to the rest of the game!

 

in terms of actual duration, redcliffe is probable the longest single battle... which is what makes it so taxing for wrong built & low-level parties that is unaware they need a large stock o' potions. in every other portion o' the game you may inch towards daylight... fight & rest, fight & rest. heck, those lyrium veins that show up in various places significantly ameliorate the player's need for potions as the mage types may re-charge on-the-fly and then heal party or smote foes. no such option is available in redcliffe. also, aristes did dahlish first, if we recall correct... and then the mage tower.

 

HA! Good Fun!

A low level melee party that goes to Redcliffe first (gee, thanks Alistair) will get zombie-lynched by hordes of undead mobs with no daylight on the horizon. That's what happened on my first playthrough & 'twas a nightmare. However, since then, my fireball toting mage makes light work of them without even needing to use health potion.

[Enoch]

Details on the spell nerfs from a Bio employee:

 

Force Field: duration lowered from 30 to 18 seconds (cooldown remains the same).

 

Crushing Prison: duration lowered from 20 to 9 (cooldown remains the same - total DOT damage remains the same)

 

Cone of Cold: freeze duration lowered from 10 to 8 seconds. Cooldown increased from 10 to 15 seconds. Damage remains the same.

 

Blizzard: The overall duration remains the same, but the freeze duration was lowered from 20 seconds to 4 seconds. Note that this duration can be re-applied every 2 seconds if the target is still inside the AOE. Cooldown remains the same.

[deganawida]

I'm wondering if we have any more extended battles like this.

 

LOL! Redcliffe is a saturday night pub fight in comparison to the rest of the game!

 

in terms of actual duration, redcliffe is probable the longest single battle... which is what makes it so taxing for wrong built & low-level parties that is unaware they need a large stock o' potions. in every other portion o' the game you may inch towards daylight... fight & rest, fight & rest. heck, those lyrium veins that show up in various places significantly ameliorate the player's need for potions as the mage types may re-charge on-the-fly and then heal party or smote foes. no such option is available in redcliffe. also, aristes did dahlish first, if we recall correct... and then the mage tower.

 

HA! Good Fun!

A low level melee party that goes to Redcliffe first (gee, thanks Alistair) will get zombie-lynched by hordes of undead mobs with no daylight on the horizon. That's what happened on my first playthrough & 'twas a nightmare. However, since then, my fireball toting mage makes light work of them without even needing to use health potion.

 

This brings up an interesting point: Much of the game seems to be designed around system mastery and meta-knowledge. If you choose junk talents or good talents at the wrong time, you will get slaughtered (this goes for Denerim bandits, too, Vol). If you use Sten or Oghren before getting them above, say, level 11, you'll find that they die a lot. If you follow the path that the game nudges you toward (Redcliffe, then Mage's Circle, etc.), then you'll be unprepared. If you invest in Constitution (as a Warrior) or Willpower (as a Mage), you'll be much less effective than if you invest in Strength or Magic.

 

I'm not sure if this is a deliberate design-choice, the result of constant revisions, or the side-effect of trying to design one's own RPG world and rule-set that hearkens to D&D while still being original. Regardless of which it is, though, it is a bit disappointing. Mass Effect used a new ruleset, and I felt that it was more balanced and did not need advance knowledge of how to build one's characters.

 

NOTE: Before anyone flames me, I do enjoy Dragon Age and am still playing it. I do not think that enjoyment of a product precludes criticism of faults, however.

[Enoch]

ME was more balanced because there were fewer options. You had no character attributes and only about a dozen abilities per character class (with ranks that increased efficacy) to choose from, many of which were shared across multiple classes. Much easier to balance than DA's scores of unique spells (spells alone number 80, by my count), combat abilities, skills, and class talents, perched across variations in attributes, races, classes, and backgrounds. Any game with that many options is going to have some overpowered and underpowered abilities. And if the player is forced (as they are in DA) to make irrevocable character decisions based on limited knowledge of the actual effects of these choices, you are going to get some inadvertently gimped builds (and some inadvertently uber builds).

 

It is a fun game, but some of their system-design decisions are destined to create frustrated players. (Who get mocked rather mercilessly when they post on the official forums.)

[Monte Carlo]

Deganawida makes a good point: I don't think it's beyond the pale to think, hmmmm I'm making a greatsword-wielding warrior... I know, I'll pump CON so he has loads of hit points!

 

PHNAARRRRPPPP!!! Goes the fail buzzer.

 

2H warriors are frail precision weapons, only the sword and board guy or high dex acrobat rogue can move around in combat with relative impunity. This is why the class structure is so gimpy - why can't I make a 2H weapon rogue who gives up some specialist skills in favour of high dex combat movement and can dish out 2H damage? The answer is obtuse design.

 

As it is the optimal 2H warrior within the ruleset is still pretty frail in what is a melee-intense game. A high dex naked rogue can zip about OTOH, with hardly any problems... I should know because I'm playing a high level DW rogue at the moment.

 

The set-up appears to be this - you have two fighters - sword and board dude drawws aggro. 2H guy steps in and puts down a massive smackdown. Mage zaps / freezes / napalms mobs and rogue either (a) stands back and goes flak-cannnon with archery thief or (b) ninjas in and out of the mob crit hitting using tier 3/4 stealth. I've worked on this variation (two sword and board warriors my first playthrough, a very potent combination - they were very difficult to take down) and it boils down to one sword and board tank dawing aggro - he is the tactical lynchpin of Dragon Age.

 

Some of the Bio shills on the official forums mock noobs --- shame on them, they obviously got the luxury of spending five years studying the rules.

 

Cheers

MC

[Enoch]

The set-up appears to be this - you have two fighters - sword and board dude drawws aggro. 2H guy steps in and puts down a massive smackdown. Mage zaps / freezes / napalms mobs and rogue either (a) stands back and goes flak-cannnon with archery thief or (b) ninjas in and out of the mob crit hitting using tier 3/4 stealth. I've worked on this variation (two sword and board warriors my first playthrough, a very potent combination - they were very difficult to take down) and it boils down to one sword and board tank dawing aggro - he is the tactical lynchpin of Dragon Age.

Agreed. My preferred party setup right now uses both of the NPC "tank" options-- Alistair and Shale. Shale is not only an adequate tank (a knockdown-avoidance ability is really the only thing lacking), in "Pulverizing Blows" mode, you've got a DPS-focused fighter that is probably better than Dog, Sten, or Oghren for most stages of the game.

[newc0253]

eh, so here's my take:

 

DA is the best Bio game since the BG saga. DA is the game that NWN should have been but wasn't. DA is a game worth waiting 5+ years for.

 

that said, it wasn't perfect.

 

my main complaints:

 

- not all races were created equal or, at least, equally well written. DA does a fanstastic job of creating a world with its different mileaux, from dwarven society in Orzammer to the mages (magi) of the Circle Tower. unfortunately, the Dalish get the short end of the stick. The concept of the Dalish should have been great: the proud remainder of a once-great civilization living on the outskirts of human society, fiercely hostile to their former human overlords. Except that when my PC went to see them, they weren't so much fiercely hostile as they seemed mildly cautious and kinda grumpy: it didn't take much to talk my way past the guard, and i had virtually no problem convincing them to help me in principle. Then i was free to roam their camp. None of them seemed the slightest bit put out that here was a bunch of armoured humans wandering around. Probably the most crippling was the voice acting. The voice acting in DA is, generally speaking, superb - some of the best i've ever heard. But for some reason, the Dalish were all voiced with hopelessly generic american accents, as though i wasn't meeting the feral remnants of an ancient civilization but the residents of Ferngully: The Last Rainforest. In a game in which gave such careful thought to so many little details (the Orlais sound French, the Antivans Spanish, etc), it's bewildering that they thought the Dalish should sound like an after-school special. So there's that.

 

- not all areas were created equal either. there's many great instances of side-quests & level design in DA. but not all of it is great and, consequently, when you run into the occassional mediocre patch, it really stands out as bad. see e.g. the haunted orphanage in the Alienage. this should have been compelling, like the whole murdered kids storyline that was one of the strongest bits in Jade Empire. Instead, it was just a lacklustre fight-the-demon, no-real-explanation-why hackquest.

 

- maybe Denerim is a little more developed in the other origin stories but, playing a human noble, it seems to be one market district, a brothel, a palace & a couple of alleyways. Don't get me wrong: the areas themselves were well done. But it felt a little on the small side for what was clearly the major city of the game.

 

-

the third act and the lack of a villain. The story builds well as you gather your army and face-off against Loghain. And then it kinda flattens out: you rush to Redcliffe, you fight, you rush back to Denerim, you fight some more, and then the big bad boss battle. Nice denoument but, still, it felt like a prelude to something else. Now, part of me thinks the better of Bioware for not attempting its trademark third-act twist (Sarevok's your brother!/Master Li's the bad guy!/You were Revan all along!/The Citadel's really a weapon!, etc, etc). I think it's obvious enough that there's some kind of big twist coming somewhere down the track in relation to the origins of the blight/the whole Maker mythology, and I give major credit to Bio for having enough confidence in the overall story arc not to shoot its entire load in the first game. The problem this leaves is that the archdemon is left undeveloped - it's a big, evil demon/dragon thing - yes - but having finished the game and despite having nightmares and visions and all the rest, i still don't have the slightest idea what it wants besides the obvious death and destruction. There's obviously more to it than that (and i like the vaguely cthuloid stuff that happens to areas overrun by darkspawn) but it was disappointing that there wasn't any hint of it in this game

.

 

but otherwise, it were great. i can't wait two years for the sequel (except, obviously, i can, but you know what i mean).

[HoonDing]

Deganawida makes a good point: I don't think it's beyond the pale to think, hmmmm I'm making a greatsword-wielding warrior... I know, I'll pump CON so he has loads of hit points!

 

PHNAARRRRPPPP!!! Goes the fail buzzer.

Same reason why a mage should ignore Willpower. With unlimited potions to make and use without any consequences (unlike in the Witcher, where potions had Toxicity levels) one should simply pump Magic and get a 100+ spellpower.

 

Willpower gives 5 mana per point, Constitution 5 HP per point... not enough pay-off.

[Aristes]

I don't even know who Shale or Oghren are. As I post more in this thread, I find that I read the comments more thoroughly now also, which means it's my own damned fault if I get something spoiled. I'll go post my normal party build in the tactics thread, but I will say that my biggest beef isn't with bad spell choices. Either by luck or superior mental acumen.... okay, luck.... I haven't had an especially hard time with any of the battles, although I admit I've used a lot of injury kits also. I know folks will probably kick sand in my face and make fun of me, but I chose all four tiers of healing, all four tiers of frost, and all four tiers of arcane. I don't know what I'll choose next, for myself, but probably the tier Morrigan has with force field. My biggest problem is that I have to watch my party like a hawk or they get killed.

 

As an elf character, I went to the elves first, then to Denerim (half of which I couldn't even access by the time I left), then the mages tower, and finally to Redcliffe. I guess I went in a big circle. If that's the best way to go, huzzah! If that's a bad way to go, bummer. If the thug battles Gromnir talks about in Denerim are the quest ones to clear out crim I will tell you that they were surprisingly well armed, organized, and skilled. Yeah, I admit that fireballs took a lot of the umph out of them, but then my mage became enemy number one. The hardest battles I've faced so far are the optional ones. The revenants and friends in the Brecilian forest, and

Flemeth

In fact, is she as evil as I'm led to believe? Evil or not, I took a couple of stabs at her last night with my standard party and then decided to put off that little foray for a bit as it isn't essential. I'll head back to the Brecilian forest again sometime today and take a new look at the revenants. Time for a little payback. Levels 11-12 right now, so I'm a bit more buff than when we first met.

 

And I'm a big idiot and put a good number of points in willpower. I guess that was a bad move. I still have to suck down mana pots too much for my liking.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Aristes

[deganawida]

And I'm a big idiot and put a good number of points in willpower. I guess that was a bad move. I still have to suck down mana pots too much for my liking.

 

Not an idiot, just on your first real play-through. One of the things that I've learned about this game is that it is far better to never need hit points or mana than to have large pools. So, if you can only cast 10 Winter's Touches before being OOM, but each one takes off 25% of your enemy's life, then you don't need as much mana.

[Volourn]

"in terms of actual duration, redcliffe is probable the longest single battle..."

 

No. This isn't true. SPOILER, SPOILER, and SPOILER are all longer and more challenging.

 

 

 

"it didn't take much to talk my way past the guard, and i had virtually no problem convincing them to help me in principle."

 

Because, you are a Grey Warden with treaties. This is true everywhere. This is the templar at the MT lets you in even if you are a mage who was kicked out earlier or even if you are a dwarf noble who was WIPED FROM THE RECORDS in Orzammar you are allowed into the city when Logain's lacky is basically laughed at by the dwarf guard. It is very logical that the Dalish will talk to you. btw, It is very easy to lose access to the elf shopkeeper, and unlike most other palces, the elves will blast you if you do some of their quests the 'bad' way.

 

 

"Willpower gives 5 mana per point, Constitution 5 HP per point... not enough pay-off."

 

Your opinion. This simply isn't true. The pay off is great. Of course, magic stat is most importnat to a mage as it should be but willpower and con can be very useful. I know with a lack of mana thanks to low willpowered I have to choose which permenant abilities I keep up, and with low, my mage will die in 2-3 hits by tough enemies.

 

 

"this goes for Denerim bandits, too, Vol"

 

denerim mobs are not ahrder than the average mob. They're about equal. This cna make themd eadly if you go in sloppily or have some bad luck. The reason why even 'normal' mobs cna be dangerous in DA is that even joe blow warrior enemy has talents they can use unlike other games ala BG where some striaght about warrior type cna only attack. That's why DA ogre rules. They just don't atatacfk ala BG ogre. They'll charge, grab, throw rocks, etc., etc.

 

2handed warriors are sueful, and I don't find Sten or Oghren to be crap, and in my first game I didn't O until like level 16.

 

 

 

"Before anyone flames me, I do enjoy Dragon Age and am still playing it. I do not think that enjoyment of a product precludes criticism of faults, however."

 

Well, yeah, but isn't that true of any game? Great or otherwise. I like DA, but I cna criticize it too (depsite people claiming I believe it's perfect). Then again, I cna criticize BG2, FO2, ARC, and other games and I love all those games too. The problem is that many criticisms are not 'fact'; but opinion. As evidenced by x npc is awesome/x npc sucks, x talent sucks/x talent is awesome, etc.,e tc. Not everyone sees certain things as problems.

 

Heck, some people on this very baord don't find being allowed to have 100SR% cheesy. I find that broken.

[Monte Carlo]

Oh no, looking at the bottom of the thread I can see 'Volourn' in italics... he's about to post and tell us how wrong we all are. Again.