Dragon Age DLC

[Tigranes]

There is no need for any DLC at all, or any base game for that matter. Games are luxury items, there's nothing essential about any part of them.

 

I was going to express my mild dismay and surprise that the short-term narrow-minded 'dont like it dont buy it dont care' view is still tanking ahead (and that's not an insult to HK or anyone, because 'narrow-minded' isn't slander if it's true for a particular argument), but I think I posted my point on this a couple of weeks ago.

 

So: prevalent business models and industry practices effect every potential consumer. Also, major changes in a way the game is sold and developed will eventually have an impact on way games are planned, made, priced, etc, and thus is a relevant topic of debate and concern to potential and real customers. Awoo-ga.

[Morgoth]

Does the standard retail Edition actually come with some free DLC? Guess not.

 

But that's no big deal. You pay for a lengthy and finished game, and pay more if you want some extra stuff. I don't think I need that DLC to complete the DA experience, so I just don't buy it.

[Mamoulian War]

There is no need for any DLC at all, or any base game for that matter. Games are luxury items, there's nothing essential about any part of them.

 

I was going to express my mild dismay and surprise that the short-term narrow-minded 'dont like it dont buy it dont care' view is still tanking ahead (and that's not an insult to HK or anyone, because 'narrow-minded' isn't slander if it's true for a particular argument), but I think I posted my point on this a couple of weeks ago.

 

So: prevalent business models and industry practices effect every potential consumer. Also, major changes in a way the game is sold and developed will eventually have an impact on way games are planned, made, priced, etc, and thus is a relevant topic of debate and concern to potential and real customers. Awoo-ga.

 

Amen!

 

Not to mention that NPC in medieval roleplaying game, asking for your credit card number is one of the most retarded immersion breaking features to any game, that i ever heard about...

 

I am now happier that i decided not to buy DA even more...

Edited November 8, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Oner]

Does the standard retail Edition actually come with some free DLC? Guess not.

Blood Dragon Armor, Stone Prisoner.

[alanschu]

That's not true. If you have a problem with the DLC then you can "vote with your wallet" by not buying the DLC, you don't need to miss out on the base game. If you refuse to buy the base game then your issues with the DLC become irrelevant because it's not something you can use anyway.

 

 

Yup. Not buying the game ends the message that you aren't interested in buying the game. Buying the game and not DLC would send a greater message that it's the DLC specifically that you aren't interested in.

 

 

 

Not to mention that NPC in medieval roleplaying game, asking for your credit card number is one of the most retarded immersion breaking features to any game, that i ever heard about...

 

I am now happier that i decided not to buy DA even more...

 

So you're happy you didn't buy a game because one character in 40-80 hours of gameplay had a line of dialogue that said "(Premium Content)" beside it, and when you clicked on it a popup (which is not the NPC talking) mentioned you'd have to purchase DLC to do this quest? The really seems like a reaching rationalization. It's odd because based on previous posts, Dragon Age seems like a game you'd probably really enjoy too.

 

 

 

I was going to express my mild dismay and surprise that the short-term narrow-minded 'dont like it dont buy it dont care' view is still tanking ahead (and that's not an insult to HK or anyone, because 'narrow-minded' isn't slander if it's true for a particular argument), but I think I posted my point on this a couple of weeks ago.

 

I was (and have) going to express my mild dismay and surprise that people have simply transitioned from bitching about money grubbing expansion packs, to money grubbing DLC. Perhaps appropriately, expansion packs seem to be the "good guy" now.

 

 

If you want to let BioWare/EA know that you don't care for the form of advertising that they have done with DLC, absolutely do not buy the DLC. Writing a letter (preferably by actual snail mail since it shows more commitment to the idea) probably wouldn't hurt either. Boycotting the game outright places a vote that you don't want 40-80 hour long fantasy RPG games more than it says you don't like how they advertise DLC.

[Nepenthe]

MS points are what you buy using XBOX Live. You can trade these points in for downloadable content. It won't affect you unless you're using an XBOX Live. Playstation has a similar points mechanic. AFAIK, you can simply buy the DLC on the PC.

 

No - PSN lets you buy what you want with real money and doesn't force you into buying "points" first in arbitrary chunks that are unrelated to the cost of whatever you want to purchase. The Xbox Live system is an immoral ripoff, if there ever was one.

 

p.s. Euro ps3 versio of DAO still not out. Having a rather dull time in a fever with all friends offline.

[alanschu]

Ah, well I believe the PSN still has points if you want to use it that way. I'm pretty sure when I was testing the purchase flow of PS3 DLC I was just adding points to my account. If they have a way that doesn't require points then that is

Edited November 8, 2009 by alanschu

[LadyCrimson]

I actually want to by the DLC. I'm really enjoying the game, and the DLC quest sounds interesting. I'm not bothered by the price, it seems fair enough. It is just the presentation that bothers me, and I'm trying to figure out how best to demonstrate that point as a consumer. I don't know, maybe a strongly worded letter will suffice

Since I don't have the game, I can't say whether I'd truly mind the sales presentation or not. However from the 1st post my impression is (so far) that it's just the 1 guy standing around somewhere? If that's so, it wouldn't bother be because once I'd clicked on him once, I'd never click on him again.

 

I guess I don't get that immersed in game environment that an advertising 'toon standing in some town/area would bug me....like anyone, I don't like commercials interrupting the smooth flow of a TV show, but it's not like the game is involuntarily stopping all available action in the middle of combat or questing to show you a cut-scene commercial in-game, correct? (which would bother me) (edit) Since games aren't like 2 hour movies where I see/play the whole thing at one time, that kind of immersion doesn't apply for me.

Edited November 8, 2009 by LadyCrimson

[alanschu]

Yeah, it's a guy that talks to you and when you get to the part where you can accept his quest, you get a dialogue option something like: "(Premium Content) Sure I'll help you out."

 

When you click on it, a message pops up saying that you need to purchase this premium content in order to complete this quest (at least there's a message on both consoles.... I'm pretty sure it's there on the PC as well). It probably also says stuff along the lines of you need to be connected to the internet/XBOX Live/Playstation Network/what have you. It's been a while since i had seen the finer details haha.

[LadyCrimson]

I remember in WoW there were toons standing around for people who bought certain packages of the game...if you had such you'd click on him and get your special pet etc., & if you didn't have the code the 'toon would tell you to go away or whatever. For me a sales 'toon wouldn't be any more immersion breaking than that.

 

Oh and I completely agree with this (goes along w/my signature, heh):

I was (and have) going to express my mild dismay and surprise that people have simply transitioned from bitching about money grubbing expansion packs, to money grubbing DLC. Perhaps appropriately, expansion packs seem to be the "good guy" now.

[Volourn]

"instead palm off this cheap crappy DLC bull**** to us for a price that's entirely not worth playing."

 

Then don't buy oir play it. Problem solved.

 

As for this 'immersion' stuff, that is a horrible argument because immersion is one of those things that is random and is totally meaningless to argue since everybody has a different sense of what 'immersion' is.

[jjc]

Excerpt from BioWare's response to DLC complaints (from Georg Zoller:)

I'm fine with you being upset about the item limit design in the game - and fine with you being upset about the chest being included in the DLC

That's amazing to me. It amazes me that BioWare's response to upset customers is "let me explain why you shouldn't be upset." How is an exchange like the one between Zoller and that site allowed to happen?

 

I don't see why anyone chooses to discuss this in terms of what purchasers of a title are or aren't "entitled" to. BioWare and EA are in the business of attracting customers to pay for their products. If those customers are feeling angry or alienated, for any reason, they're less likely to remain customers in the future. That EA dropped SecuROM from Dragon Age means they perceived the wave of backlash against Spore (mainly in the form of its battered Amazon "star rating") as a credible threat to their business. Are EA or BioWare capable of responding to dissatisfaction expressed on a smaller scale, as with these DLC complaints?

I'm fine with you being upset

[Volourn]

Becuase BIO is not intimidated by some crybabies on the internetz, because their fanbase is more than just the couple of epople who spam non stop.

 

Losing a handful of customers over small things or incosnequential things is simply irrelevant to BIO - espicially since most of the complainers are 'hardcore' punks whoa re gonna buy the BIO games releaased anyways.

 

Quite frnakly, he was too polite.

[Monte Carlo]

I've articulated my (mixed) views on the effect the Soldier's Peak bonuses you can get in my dedicated DA thread, it's slightly but not totally spoilerish.

 

Some people will freak when they see the twinky skill tree you get for spending the extra money.

[HoonDing]

Some people will freak when they see the twinky skill tree you get for spending the extra money.

I'm interested... could you spoiler tag it in this thread? I'm considering getting the DLC.

[aries101]

Yeah, it's a guy that talks to you and when you get to the part where you can accept his quest, you get a dialogue option something like: "(Premium Content) Sure I'll help you out."

 

When you click on it, a message pops up saying that you need to purchase this premium content in order to complete this quest (at least there's a message on both consoles.... I'm pretty sure it's there on the PC as well). It probably also says stuff along the lines of you need to be connected to the internet/XBOX Live/Playstation Network/what have you. It's been a while since i had seen the finer details haha.

 

 

And that is exactly my problem with this. You wouldn't know that you need to pay for the content untill you actually clicked on the Premium Content.

If it was clearly marked 'premium content' before you bought it, or that people would have to pay for it such as like 'premium content 7 US dollars' or something similar, I would be much happier about this - as a customer that is.

 

I don't like per se the method they've used to peddle the DLC, but in this suggested way (as above) you'd know when you were to buy the Premium Content.

[The big probem here is that Warden's Keep is ONLY free for those with the DDE version of the game, not for everyone who has the CE version of the game.]

 

Having the option to buy it, after you've heard the salesmans -ahem- the npc's pitch is trickery, I find. And of course, they'd probably thought they'd would sell more DLC that way. I'm mot sure that's true. People tend to buy DLC if they want to buy it - or not.

 

I don't have a problem with delivering content via digital distribution at all. [i know for a fact that many small indie adventure game developers see this as their only way to get their game out...] I'm just wondering about some things here:

 

1) What about the people who live out in the boons -ehm- I mean country who don't have a high broadband connection? And sometimes even have a level cap on how much they can download pr. month?

 

2)

What happens like 5 or 10 years from now, when EA decided to shut down the servers for this game? (they'd done it before, I think?

 

As for giving the NPC your credit card details that it is happening.

 

People, that have bought the WK DLC, have reported that you need to go to a page to get Bioware points. You can also buy Bioware points via the Social Site. And there's an option to buy points for 7 US dollars (or 6.51 Euros) that equals 560 Bioware points. The irritating comes when you need to download the DLC.

Bioware have made a pdf file about this (it's 5 or 10pages long) - and it goes through the whole lengthy process of downloading DLC.

 

As said; I don't have a problem with digital distribution at all - not even with the DLC for this game. But maybe just a simple message 'there's DLC available, would you like to buy it' (or download it) - and be taken to the Bioware points page, if you decided that you would like to do so.

 

As for Warden's Keep being cut out of the game. Mot so. Many people think so - but it wasn't. Reason being the one(s) Alanschu have. (and Mike Laidlaw gave some others in a thread about this at the Bioware forums).

 

The most important being that when game is locked, it is locked. Nothing can be added or taking away - unless they're game breaking bugs. (and no, a fawlty line or some minor graphichal problem isn't game breaking - but a bug that closes off the main questline might be...) And in order to not FIRE anyone, people are assigned other tasks such as writing for the ME team, polishing bugs for ME, concepting a new game - or making DLC for this game.

 

Also, please remember that this game was supposed to be out in march/april 2009 - not novemeber 2009 - ; had the game been on this time-schedule, not many (ok, some would of course) would have had any problems with the DLC for Warden's Keep being out here in November 2009.

 

The DLC team is created to avoid bottleneck problems, to smoothly transition people from one part of the game to the next - as well as to avoid having to fire people - keeping them onboard (the company) - untill the next big game comes around for them to work on.

[Volourn]

"Having the option to buy it, after you've heard the salesmans -ahem- the npc's pitch is trickery,"

 

What you call trickery. Is called effective marketing. World of gaming is competitive so you you gotta come up with creative ways to market your product. Calling it trickery eludes to some sneaky, unethical underhandedness to get money for no reason.

 

Like always, you pay x dollars you get y in return. Seems fair to me.

 

 

"2)

What happens like 5 or 10 years from now, when EA decided to shut down the servers for this game? (they'd done it before, I think?"

 

This is an issue, of course. It's also why I personally avoid online purchases - espicially DLC - as much as possible. I like to 'own' what I buy. It's why I NEVER use steam.

[Tigranes]

I was (and have) going to express my mild dismay and surprise that people have simply transitioned from bitching about money grubbing expansion packs, to money grubbing DLC. Perhaps appropriately, expansion packs seem to be the "good guy" now.

 

I do agree that some of the complaints are silly and illogical - i.e. if you're going to sell DLCs, then integrating it into the game is a smart move for everyone concerned, not 'evil', and selling DLCs in and of itself is not a problem at all because it can potentially make things much more enjoyable and good value for the consumer.

 

You know, I'd probably be happy if each DLC was of good value and well made, and if the base game stood up well on its own right. And DA does that. I just think it's important to debate the issue, speak up about it, speak with the wallets too, and hope that it doesn't go down a slippery slope towards rampant exploitation.

[Hurlshort]

I've never actually complained about an expansion pack.

[alanschu]

Excerpt from BioWare's response to DLC complaints (from Georg Zoller:)

I'm fine with you being upset about the item limit design in the game - and fine with you being upset about the chest being included in the DLC

That's amazing to me. It amazes me that BioWare's response to upset customers is "let me explain why you shouldn't be upset." How is an exchange like the one between Zoller and that site allowed to happen?

 

I don't see why anyone chooses to discuss this in terms of what purchasers of a title are or aren't "entitled" to. BioWare and EA are in the business of attracting customers to pay for their products. If those customers are feeling angry or alienated, for any reason, they're less likely to remain customers in the future. That EA dropped SecuROM from Dragon Age means they perceived the wave of backlash against Spore (mainly in the form of its battered Amazon "star rating") as a credible threat to their business. Are EA or BioWare capable of responding to dissatisfaction expressed on a smaller scale, as with these DLC complaints?

I'm fine with you being upset

 

BioWare's customers felt alienated when there was an obvious expansion pack for Baldur's Gate.

BioWare's customers felt alienated that people buying the collector's edition got access to better in game gear (which was quickly modded in).

BioWare's customers felt alienated that KOTOR came out on PC after the XBOX version.

BioWare's customers felt alienated when Jade Empire had no known PC release.

BioWare's customers felt alienated when they decided to make an MMO in the KOTOR universe.

BioWare's customers felt alienated in response to DLC.

 

When aren't BioWare's fans being "alienated." I think it's an outspoken minority personally.

 

As for Georg feeling "fine," I'm guessing (and stress guessing) that he's fine with it because he understands that fans will have grievances, but given the development of the project (which he's going to be much more intimately knowledgeable about than any fan) he understands and supports the actions that he and the team made with respect to the item limit. With additional resources, a dedicated team, and extra time, he understands and supports the actions of the DLC team in adding the chest.

[alanschu]

And that is exactly my problem with this. You wouldn't know that you need to pay for the content untill you actually clicked on the Premium Content.

If it was clearly marked 'premium content' before you bought it, or that people would have to pay for it such as like 'premium content 7 US dollars' or something similar, I would be much happier about this - as a customer that is.

 

To be clear, the game does NOT blindside you or do any "sneaky" actions to get you to buy something without realizing you're buying it. When you click on the Premium Content conversation option, you are notified that in order to play the premium content, you will need to purchase it. It then asks if you want to proceed. If you say no, then you continue on as if you had not picked the Premium Content conversation option. It most definitely IS clearly marked as premium content before you buy it.

 

Having the option to buy it, after you've heard the salesmans -ahem- the npc's pitch is trickery, I find. And of course, they'd probably thought they'd would sell more DLC that way. I'm mot sure that's true. People tend to buy DLC if they want to buy it - or not.

 

I disagree that it's trickery. You hear the story, and if you don't own the DLC, the option to accept the quest comes with "(Premium Content)" in front of it. When you select it, it asks if you want to purchase the premium content. As for your final statement, there's probably an idea that some people may not know that premium content has become available. I suspect that's why they've experimented with in game premium content hooks.

 

 

1) What about the people who live out in the boons -ehm- I mean country who don't have a high broadband connection? And sometimes even have a level cap on how much they can download pr. month?

 

This is always an issue with any DLC. Sometimes some people are just going to be SOL. I had slow internet for a long time which prevented me from playing games that I wanted to play like Diablo II or trying out MMOs. I think ti's safe to say that people that are not willing to spend the time downloading it, or have bandwidth restrictions on their internet, are not the target market for DLC.

 

 

2)

What happens like 5 or 10 years from now, when EA decided to shut down the servers for this game? (they'd done it before, I think?

 

This is certainly a concern. It is possible (I hear) to permanently back up your DLC. Also, how significant is the consumer base that replays old games 5-10 years down the line?

 

 

People, that have bought the WK DLC, have reported that you need to go to a page to get Bioware points. You can also buy Bioware points via the Social Site. And there's an option to buy points for 7 US dollars (or 6.51 Euros) that equals 560 Bioware points. The irritating comes when you need to download the DLC.

Bioware have made a pdf file about this (it's 5 or 10pages long) - and it goes through the whole lengthy process of downloading DLC.

 

I'll wholeheartedly agree that there are technical issues with the DLC right now. Which is unfortunate. Hopefully easy fixes/remedies can be found.

 

As for Warden's Keep being cut out of the game. Mot so. Many people think so - but it wasn't. Reason being the one(s) Alanschu have. (and Mike Laidlaw gave some others in a thread about this at the Bioware forums).

 

The most important being that when game is locked, it is locked. Nothing can be added or taking away - unless they're game breaking bugs. (and no, a fawlty line or some minor graphichal problem isn't game breaking - but a bug that closes off the main questline might be...) And in order to not FIRE anyone, people are assigned other tasks such as writing for the ME team, polishing bugs for ME, concepting a new game - or making DLC for this game.

 

As an example, I found some typo errors in conversations, as well as some fact errors in the Codex depending on how you play through the game. I submitted them as bugs, and they were acknowledged but unfortunately listed as will not fix because of timeline issues, as well as localization issues.

[Pop]

I don't know, that's sort of assuming that the way the game turned out as well as it could under the circumstances, which is plainly false given Bioware's history.

 

The only design choice in Dragon Age that I really don't like is the inventory system. Or rather, the elimination of containers. Bioware obviously knew that inventory space was going to be a problem - there's no other explanation for the inclusion of backpack expansions you can buy. Containers that you can put things in have been a part of Bioware games up until this point (at least I think so - if they weren't, then inventories at least were bottomless) I mean you can tell us that it took a dedicated team a great amount of time to create a functional container similar to those in all other Bioware games (a container that for whatever reason is only in DLC content and not in the rest of the game), but from where I'm sitting it all looks pretty deliberate. How convenient that I get so frustrated by the limited inventory system. How inconvenient for me that Bioware's design philosophy with regard to inventory made a 90 degree turn, and the only way to bring it in line with prior games was to pay money for it. I suppose it was the only way it could work out, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Pop

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Argg... I found out something annoying. The BioWare SocialNetwork Account for Dragon Age is tied to a single e-mail address that cannot be changed. In other words all the DLC you might get is tied to that address - so if you change it down the line...

[Mamoulian War]

I've never actually complained about an expansion pack.

 

same for me... i purchased all expansion packs for all games that i own and have released it... the difference between DLC and Exp pack is in most cases very big... you usualy get more fun for same money from exp packs

 

What you call trickery. Is called effective marketing.

 

for you it might be effective marketing, for me it is dealbreaking issue... there is reason why i never watch TV stations, which do have commercials in middle of movies... they do break the immersion for me as much as stuff for real money NPCs in computer games... But yes it is effective marketing in a way... it effectively saved me 60 EUR

[alanschu]

I don't know, that's sort of assuming that the way the game turned out as well as it could under the circumstances, which is plainly false given Bioware's history.

 

The only design choice in Dragon Age that I really don't like is the inventory system. Or rather, the elimination of containers. Bioware obviously knew that inventory space was going to be a problem - there's no other explanation for the inclusion of backpack expansions you can buy. Containers that you can put things in have been a part of Bioware games up until this point (at least I think so - if they weren't, then inventories at least were bottomless) I mean you can tell us that it took a dedicated team a great amount of time to create a functional container similar to those in all other Bioware games (a container that for whatever reason is only in DLC content and not in the rest of the game), but from where I'm sitting it all looks pretty deliberate. How convenient that I get so frustrated by the limited inventory system. How inconvenient for me that Bioware's design philosophy with regard to inventory made a 90 degree turn, and the only way to bring it in line with prior games was to pay money for it. I suppose it was the only way it could work out, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

 

Did you read Georg's response?

 

He mentioned that it was in camp to start, but at the last minute they realized that given that camp changes a lot, inventory in the chest wasn't being properly stored. It sounded like a last minute cut because of this issue.

 

Unfortunately, it's not trivial to change things at the end (especially if they need to be changed) and rather than ship something they feel could be buggy and cause serious issues, they felt the best decision at that time was removing it.

 

As for "knowing it was going to be a problem," on a personal level I didn't file it as a bug for two reasons. It was late in development when I started, and figured it was as design. During my playthrough when I ran into inventory issues, I realized that the game wasn't just going to let me be a packrat. So I decided to trim my inventory of a lot of duplicate armor and weapons (which was taking up a lot of inventory slots), and realized that I have no plans to do much crafting with all those salves and whatnot (the crafting system just does not interest me), and I realized that a lot of the stuff (like "Personal Documents") was just merchant filler. When I was full on inventory, that was the first stuff to get deleted if I actually needed to pick up something I deemed valuable enough.

 

I didn't feel as though the system was broken.

 

 

As for the evidence to the contrary, it's circumstantial. I've seen a lot of the fun pseudo-code "solutions" that a lot of people post in response to "easy fixes" and so forth. People have put the pieces together the way they want to.