The Nobel Peace prize goes to Barack Obama

[Wrath of Dagon]

I said for whoever's interested, since we're talking about different economies. I already posted a GDP growth chart for different countries.

 

Edit:

What does economic freedom have to do with anything? Are you just looking for charts where US is above Finland? Try the population and area ones next

 

Hey look, here's the Freedom of Press chart and US is pretty low on it. How about them apples?

What a surprise, a group of leftist loons doesn't think US has enough press freedom. I'd like to know what they're basing that assessment on.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Lare Kikkeli]

I get 400 billion zillion channels on my cable, of course I have to pay $80 a month. I can see Finland is very advanced. Here's the Economic Freedom Index for whoever's interested http://www.heritage.org/Index/Default.aspx

 

Man, that post is so pissy that you should just take a break from posting.

[HoonDing]

[Purkake]

They don't speak well of my country? Leftist loons!

 

Got it.

[213374U]

I said for whoever's interested, since we're talking about different economies. I already posted a GDP growth chart for different countries.

You aren't talking about "different economies". You are talking about an imaginary economy that has no resemblance to anything in the real world, as the data abundantly proves. Review the last five pages.

 

Funny, as the chart you posted shows that, despite all your claims, the US isn't the most "free economy". Nor is it the one that has grown the most in any given period you have specified.

 

 

I'd like to know what they're basing that assessment on.

Then why don't you, gee, I don't know... follow the links?

 

Oh, right. You have had very bad experiences with links in this thread, in the past.

Edited October 15, 2009 by 213374U

[Gorth]

"Mine is bigger than yours"... and people wonder why I am condescending on nationalists?

 

Fascinating how a peace prize can create so much conflict. Let me know when we reach the point of circular references (that would be my cue)

[Gorgon]

I said for whoever's interested, since we're talking about different economies. I already posted a GDP growth chart for different countries.

 

What a surprise, a group of leftist loons doesn't think US has enough press freedom. I'd like to know what they're basing that assessment on.

 

 

 

The report is based on a questionnaire sent to partner organizations of Reporters Without Borders (14 freedom of expression groups in five continents) and its 130 correspondents around the world, as well as to journalists, researchers, jurists and human rights activists.

Just to be clear they are professionals with an interest in freedom of speech, not some random group of people with an axe to grind.

 

I imagine the main problems in the US have to do with national security issues, I recall several high profile cases where journalists were forced to reveal sources, and a general fear of lawsuits among the big publishing houses, although this is hardly unique to the US. Controversial investigative journalism has had a hard time this last decade as news outlets are pretty much only about making money and not so much any more about fulfilling their part in the system of checks and balances.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Gorgon

[~Di]

God, you guys can be insufferable. I mean, for a while this thread was entertaining, but someone makes a pro Finland post and folks fall all over themselves touting it as the bomb. If someone posts something as provincially chauvenistic about the US, the howls and screams are heard for miles. I actually have a lot of respect for Finland. I have respect for most countries, and Finland does have a noble history. It has a brave history. Still, it's a tiny nation (at least population-wise) with a homogenous population and built in trading partners. By their own hard work, the Finns have become prosperous, but they didn't do it on their own. Hell, no nation does, especially today.

 

Finland has a population of, what? about the size of New York. ...And New York's economy probably dwarfs Finland's. Per capita income in Manhattan alone is probably much higher as well. Does that mean that New Yorkers should pile on Finland? Most New Yorkers probably don't care about Finland. From what I can tell, a lot of them don't even want to recognize that they're part of a union. California probably has more ethnic diversity that Finland. ...And that's recognizing that Finland does bring different cultures to the table. I live in a city with one of the highest longevity rates in the world. In fact, allegedly one of the top three. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/ Does that mean I can tout my healthcare system as inherently better?

 

Yeah, Wrath did go a little overboard in defending the United States. He still wasn't wrong on every point. As someone who has been to and lived in foreign countries, I can tell you that most of them have some good and bad. The US isn't any different. Still, because Wrath had the audacity to step up to defend his country, you guys have been piling on indiscriminantly for pages of this thread. Is it possible to have anything resembling a real discussion, or is it really only about talking down the United States?

 

My point isn't to insult Finland. Far from it. I admire Finland. However, that doesn't mean I should be ashamed of my own country. The United States has a noble history too. Like everywhere else, that noble history has an ugly and ignoble twin, but that doesn't mean I should not take pride in the accomplishments of my country.

 

Probably the only specific issue I take personally is that we Americans, as a general rule, are stingy. We're not. We are a giving people and give quite a bit of money to private charities. One of the highest rates of personal donations in the world. I could only find this article in a quick search, but it does underscore that the private citizens of the United States are a lot more generous than the 'stereotypes' presented here. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Commerce.We...reCanadians.pdf

 

Once again, my point isn't to insult Canadians. However, I contend that we are a giving nation and that most folks don't fear socialized healthcare because they turn a cold shoulder to sick folks. The single biggest reason, I am personally convinced, for the widespread stance against UHC is that Americans don't trust the government. Maybe you think that's a crappy reason, but it does help explain why a people who are so personally giving, not only domestically but also to global causes, especially in times of crisis, would not band behind UHC.

 

At any rate, the amount of vitriol spouted at the US in this thread dwarfs whatever offense you see in Wrath's praise of it.

 

Thank you for this post, particularly the portion I bolded.

[Guard Dog]

Ditto. And everyone wonders why Americans don't give a damn if everyone else "likes" us or not. I won't lose a moments sleep knowing my continued existence or that of the country I love and have shed blood and sweat for causes consernation to the "internet intellectuals" in Europe, Australia, or where ever.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I said for whoever's interested, since we're talking about different economies. I already posted a GDP growth chart for different countries.

 

What a surprise, a group of leftist loons doesn't think US has enough press freedom. I'd like to know what they're basing that assessment on.

 

 

 

The report is based on a questionnaire sent to partner organizations of Reporters Without Borders (14 freedom of expression groups in five continents) and its 130 correspondents around the world, as well as to journalists, researchers, jurists and human rights activists.

Just to be clear they are professionals with an interest in freedom of speech, not some random group of people with an axe to grind.

 

I imagine the main problems in the US have to do with national security issues, I recall several high profile cases where journalists were forced to reveal sources, and a general fear of lawsuits among the big publishing houses, although this is hardly unique to the US. Controversial investigative journalism has had a hard time this last decade as news outlets are pretty much only about making money and not so much any more about fulfilling their part in the system of checks and balances.

I meant what specifically they found that caused them to give US a low ranking. Journalists are only forced to reveal sources if they're called as witnesses in a trial, reporters are not above the law and have no special protection as witnesses. Controversial investigative journalists can investigate and print whatever they like, if they're too lazy to do that or if there's not enough money in it for them to bother that's hardly an indictment of our freedom of the press. That organization itself said they only measure the freedom of the reporters, not the quality of the reporting. I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

[213374U]

Ditto. And everyone wonders why Americans don't give a damn if everyone else "likes" us or not. I won't lose a moments sleep knowing my continued existence or that of the country I love and have shed blood and sweat for causes consernation to the "internet intellectuals" in Europe, Australia, or where ever.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

[mkreku]

I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

Well, the closest and easiest way of seeing a restriction in the "press" is to type **** or **** or **** on this very board and see what comes up. We have no such restrictions on any media channel in Sweden, for example. USA has lots of those, hypocrites as you are.

 

And of course everything that doesn't comply with your narrowminded view of the world must be lies and propaganda. Oh, and irrelevant too.

 

Just one quick question: have you ever actually been outside the US? And no, Mexico doesn't really count.

[Gorgon]

Ditto. And everyone wonders why Americans don't give a damn if everyone else "likes" us or not. I won't lose a moments sleep knowing my continued existence or that of the country I love and have shed blood and sweat for causes consernation to the "internet intellectuals" in Europe, Australia, or where ever.

 

 

You lot just catch more **** because of your superpower status, which by the way would have been the case regardless of who had that position.

[Amentep]

I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

Well, the closest and easiest way of seeing a restriction in the "press" is to type **** or **** or **** on this very board and see what comes up. We have no such restrictions on any media channel in Sweden, for example. USA has lots of those, hypocrites as you are.

 

To be fair to the US Press, that would only really be restrictive if communication was impossible without using ****, **** or ****.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

Well, the closest and easiest way of seeing a restriction in the "press" is to type **** or **** or **** on this very board and see what comes up. We have no such restrictions on any media channel in Sweden, for example. USA has lots of those, hypocrites as you are.

We don't have any restrictions, except on public airways. Obsidian is free to restrict whatever it wants on its private boards, that has nothing to do with freedom of the press, you obviously don't even understand the concept.

And of course everything that doesn't comply with your narrowminded view of the world must be lies and propaganda. Oh, and irrelevant too.

 

Just one quick question: have you ever actually been outside the US? And no, Mexico doesn't really count.

I was actually born outside the US. And I've been in about 6 other countries. Mexico couldn't be more different from the US btw.

[Hurlshort]

Just one quick question: have you ever actually been outside the US? And no, Mexico doesn't really count.

 

How does Mexico not count? It's a third world country, it is completely different then the US.

 

Now if you've only gone to a resort, then you might have an argument there.

[lord of flies]

I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

United States strategically bombs Al-Jazeera offices in Iraq, discusses bombing their headquarters in Qatar.

 

The United States is also fining David Ashenfelter five thousand dollars a day, and may arrest him for not revealing a source. He reported irregularities committed by a former federal prosecutor in relation to a terrorism-linked case.

 

The US government also uses its own agencies to disrupt media and expression, such as Operation Mockingbird and COINTELPRO. There is no outstanding reason to believe it has stopped, or that if it has stopped it is because of principles.

 

Just for example. The United States ranks fairly high domestically on these sorts of lists, but absolutely atrociously internationally for things like bombing the **** out of Al Jazeera.

Edited October 16, 2009 by lord of flies

[Gorgon]

Ditto. And everyone wonders why Americans don't give a damn if everyone else "likes" us or not. I won't lose a moments sleep knowing my continued existence or that of the country I love and have shed blood and sweat for causes consernation to the "internet intellectuals" in Europe, Australia, or where ever.

 

 

You lot just catch more **** because of your superpower status, which by the way would have been the case regardless of who had that position.

That should read

 

"You lot just catch more **** because of your superpower status, which by the way would have been the case for whoever happens to have that position."

[Aristes]

lol Gorgon. You bastard! Hey, is that a filtered word?

[Gorgon]

In the 60 and 70 it was something you smoked, now it's more sort of an all purpose noun.

[Guard Dog]

That should read

 

"You lot just catch more **** because of your superpower status, which by the way would have been the case for whoever happens to have that position."

 

Heh, true enough. Thomas Sowell is one of the greatest economic minds the USA has produced in my liffetime at least. He had a really interesting quote of what superpower status should really mean. And I wholeheartedly agree with him:

 

Before the Iraq war I was quite disturbed by some of the neoconservatives, who were saying things like, "What is the point of being a superpower if you can't do such-and-such, take on these responsibilities?" I thought the point of being a superpower is that people will leave you alone.

 

Thomas Sowell

[Humodour]

I disagree. It's largely true, but not universally true. I was reading some poll of about 50,000 people across the world and people all over the world largely want to see every power (regional or global) weaken including: China, America, Russia, Iran (Iran was included as one of the regional powers, and it had the least positive responses of any country).

 

However, there was one power that almost everyone around the world thought positively of and wanted to see become stronger: the European Union.

 

I think it's obvious that a power is only going to be rejected when it conspicuously acts in its own self-interest repeatedly, as Russia, China, Iran, and America all do. The EU on the other-hand tends to be far more multilateral, diplomatic and exert soft power. They're also the largest aid donor in the world.

 

Of course, it helps that people don't see the EU as a threat because its status as a single coherent entity is veiled by the bureaucracy of its individual parts (which is IMHO a good thing, though it could do with some democratic reforms). I wouldn't like to see the EU become a full federalist state, but I don't think it needs to do its job (counterbalance other world powers) anyway.

 

Hmm, this post was neither here nor there.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Krezack

[I want teh kotor 3]

I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

 

Ever seen a 16-year-old get prevented from seeing an R-rated movies? Movie and game reatings are clear examples of censorship. Hence, Jack thompson is an idiot. That is all.

[Humodour]

I challenge anyone to find a single case where the freedom of the press has been legally restricted in the US. This ranking is clearly a lie and propaganda.

 

Ever seen a 16-year-old get prevented from seeing an R-rated movies? Movie and game reatings are clear examples of censorship. Hence, Jack thompson is an idiot. That is all.

 

Um, while Wrath of Dagon's post clearly displays a lack of understanding of how the freedom of press index works, as far as examples of what he asked for go, I don't think that counts. It's censorship, sure, but not of the press.

 

America scored reasonably high on the freedom of press index, largely because censorship is rare. But it faltered on other issues (such as indirect pressure by outside organisations, e.g. lobbyists or businesses).

 

Anyway, here's an example for WoD: in 2008, America censored the website Wikileaks. That was by court order, and ended after the court-case. Largely transparent but still disturbing.

[lord of flies]

United States strategically bombs Al-Jazeera offices in Iraq, discusses bombing their headquarters in Qatar.

 

The United States is also fining David Ashenfelter five thousand dollars a day, and may arrest him for not revealing a source. He reported irregularities committed by a former federal prosecutor in relation to a terrorism-linked case.

 

The US government also uses its own agencies to disrupt media and expression, such as Operation Mockingbird and COINTELPRO. There is no outstanding reason to believe it has stopped, or that if it has stopped it is because of principles.

 

Just for example. The United States ranks fairly high domestically on these sorts of lists, but absolutely atrociously internationally for things like bombing the **** out of Al Jazeera.

Quoting myself since apparently nobody noticed this last time.