alanschu Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Seems the problem is that BioWare used to be "undisputed" compared to other RPGs. So when the rest of them moved up to where they were, people expected BioWare to move up just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 to me, the problem is that bethesda and bioware are sort of the Big Dogs of the western rpg world. So when the elements are not top notch, or even that great (ie decent, but overall ho-hum and boring writing) it's kind of a big let down. they are the only companies spending this amount of time and $ on rpgs, so my expectations are very high. if mass effect was created by a brand new studio with almost no experience and a small budget i would be HUGELY impressed. instead it was "pretty good", and I don't get to see anything better come out that year because we really only get on average one big budget AAA rpg a year. i know this reasoning isn't wholly logical, its more of a gut thing. its all about your expectations. well, at least you admit that it is a "gut thing." people maybe expect more of Bioware, but that not mean that Bioware games is less good simply 'cause Bio got more experience and more resources than the competition. buy a $50,000 car built by mentally challenged orphans with no thumbs. how you measure quality o' the car? relative to any other $50,000 car, no? quality not change 'cause o' the resources o' the developer. expectations not change the quality o' game, car... whatever. *shrug* 'least you admit it is a gut thing... puts you ahead o' the curve 'round these parts. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entrerix Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 it's kinda like the summer blockbuster movies. a whole summer could go by, when there was one movie i was REALLY excited about, that movie turns out to be very mediocre, and nothing else that summer really interested me, so now im stuck with a mediocre summer when I was hoping for the best summer evarrr1!! it's a bit silly, but true for me. on the brightside sometimes a small budget movie might come out of no where and surprise me by being way better than the big budget one (which i was expecting to be great), even if the effects of the small budget movie werent quite as good and it had a few plot problems. Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Personally, I've always preferred to judge entertainment based on what it gives me as opposed to what I wanted it to be. Truth is very little will meet what I want it to be, but what it is can often be entertaining in its own way. I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Seems the problem is that BioWare used to be "undisputed" compared to other RPGs. I don't remember that ever being the case. I think BioWare is one of the few development companies that have lasted a long time, but I don't ever recall a time where its works were considered flawless or there weren't other good games to play. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Hmmm, I remember a time when it was predominantly BioWare being championed as the saviour of the RPG (I disagree) and they definitely made the biggest splash. Essentially what I was saying was that BioWare set a high standard, and as others have caught up, BioWare didn't move up by the same amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calax Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Bioware was the big main guy for RPG's back with IE. But as time moved on other groups got into it and soon they were in pretty heavy competition but didn't make the change to keep ahead. Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Hmmm, I remember a time when it was predominantly BioWare being championed as the saviour of the RPG (I disagree) and they definitely made the biggest splash. You mean back when people didn't know the different between BioWare and Black Isle? We still get posts about BioWare making Planescape and Icewind Dale... Essentially what I was saying was that BioWare set a high standard, and as others have caught up, BioWare didn't move up by the same amount. What game studio has consistantly produced better RPGs than BioWare? KotORII, NWN II, and the Witcher were all good games, but they all used BioWare's game engines. What would they have looked like if Obsidian and CD Projekt had to make their own game engine the way BioWare did? The Witcher had far less content than even Jade Empire. KotOR II had some fairly obvious cuts in content that hurt the gaming experience. I don't think Neverwinter Nights II is better than Mass Effect, Knights, or Jade Empire, and while the graphics were superior, I don't consider the story that much better than NWN OC. I haven't played MotB yet, but I have heard great things about it. What about Betheda? Fallout 3 was a good game, but I wouldn't call it a good RPG, and for all the complaints about BioWare's writing, they manage to come up with better plots and dialogue than Bethesda did. Blizzard? Are their World of Warcraft and Diablo games better RPGs than BioWares? Again, I think they're great games, but not good RPGs. Trokia did some interesting stuff, and I love Vampire: Bloodlines, but the ending is a drag and there isn't as much content. It's a matter of breath and depth, BioWare does both, while other companies usually focus on one or the other. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) You mean back when people didn't know the different between BioWare and Black Isle? We still get posts about BioWare making Planescape and Icewind Dale... Yup. You disagree with me and that's fine. I'm dropping it at this point. I'm not the one challenging BioWare's position in the RPG world. Edited October 1, 2009 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I actually wasn't disagreeing with you in my last post.. at least not regarding people saying BioWare was the savior of RPGs. Actually, I didn't know we were disagreeing on that other thing either. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) You seemed to be insisting that BioWare wasn't separate from the pack, as indicated by their link with Black Isle Studios and how people confused the two. You quoted me talking about other studios catching up and then said "What game studio has consistantly produced better RPGs than BioWare?" It seemed like you thought that I was saying BioWare has lost a step and isn't the premiere RPG developer in the West. I never challenged that any studio has consistently produced better RPGs than BioWare. I don't think that they have. I do think that there are more genuine options available for RPGs out there than back in the BG days. Edited October 1, 2009 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 You seemed to be insisting that BioWare wasn't separate from the pack, as indicated by their link with Black Isle Studios and how people confused the two. No, I was commenting on something I found amusing. People also think BioWare did NWNII and KotORII from the comments I've read. You quoted me talking about other studios catching up and then said "What game studio has consistantly produced better RPGs than BioWare?" You provided a spring-board for me to talk about the subject. We seem to have similar thoughts on the matter. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Fair enough. Hard to tell these things on the internet. I'm also tired and going to bed now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niten_Ryu Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Hmmm, I remember a time when it was predominantly BioWare being championed as the saviour of the RPG (I disagree) and they definitely made the biggest splash. Why do you disagree with that ? Ultima was on it's way down the tubes, SSI's Gold Box era was gone, FPS and RTS games dominated the scene, MMOGs were just around the corner and many bad AD&D games almost ruined the brand. Fallout was nothing but unoffical sequel for Wasteland at the time and Jagged Alliance was more of tactical combat sim. I'd say Bioware did save the western type of CRPGs. Let's play Alpha Protocol My misadventures on youtube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr insomniac Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I agree with that. At the time I picked up Baldur's Gate, my favourite games were quake 2 and myth: the fallen lords. I think i actually got myth at the same time as BG. I distinctly remember splitting up my gaming day between the two games. of course, there was also red: alert... but there wasn't a good rpg to play before BG came along. I have to add here that i hadn't heard of fallout or fallout 2 until i was playing PS:T and found the message boards. I took this job because I thought you were just a legend. Just a story. A story to scare little kids. But you're the real deal. The demon who dares to challenge God. So what the hell do you want? Don't seem to me like you're out to make this stinkin' world a better place. Why you gotta kill all my men? Why you gotta kill me? Nothing personal. It's just revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Bioware has definitely been on the decline, hopefully it'll reverse with DAO. But games in general have been terrible for the last few years, the only great non-sim games I've played are the Orange Box and Braid, and the OB is mostly last gen. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Don't start the whole "there are no good games these days" old man speech again. You need to lower your expectations and look at more indie stuff or die alone in your ivory tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I actually have no lack of games to play, more a lack of time, especially PC strategy. I miss great games like Thief, KOTOR, and Shenmue though, there really hasn't been anything great lately. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Stuff changes over time, your tastes don't, conflict confirmed. That's just the way it is. Edited October 1, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I think there has been a noticeable decline in quality. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL THE ALMIGHTY Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I actually like the way games are going, mostly because artistic direction is getting much, much better. "Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I actually like the way games are going, mostly because artistic direction is getting much, much better. artisitic direction is greater than either gameplay or story? Bioshock is a better game than System Shock 2 because it looks better? Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I know I'm going to be accused of being a backwoodsman... but it's true that commercial success and popular appeal erodes and destroys all sorts of cultural endeavours. It's particularly egregrious in gaming. However, it also depends which side of the divide you're on. For example, I really can't stand the theatre, mainly because you can't do a ten-handed slo-mo gunfight on Broadway, or a carchase, or a siege. So movies are for me. Sixty or seventy years ago theatre people were aghast at cinema, it really was barbarians at the gates. People who hate comics wish that folks would also read books, but the two happily co-exist (doesn't take a squillion dollars to write / develop a comic). Haute cuisine lovers hate McDonalds. Coffee snobs hate Starbucks. Yadda yadda yadda. So you win some, you lose some. As CRPGs become progressively crappier, I move onto other genres and games. The wheel will turn and hopefully smaller indie developers will prosper like the humans in a Terminator movie. I think technology will make that viable, and FWIW I will aggressively support smaller developers as much as I can. Cheers MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) I think there has been a noticeable decline in quality. Games are much more complex now from a technical point of view. The experiences are more streamlined, the games more formulaic. The innovation seems to come more from smaller indie games with the bigger developers taking less risks. The complexity of gameplay and the importance of story/characters/writing may have declined, but the overall quality of products has undoubtedly gone up. Edited October 1, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL THE ALMIGHTY Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I actually like the way games are going, mostly because artistic direction is getting much, much better. artisitic direction is greater than either gameplay or story? Bioshock is a better game than System Shock 2 because it looks better? No, this is all just personal preference. "Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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