so pissed at Obsidian

[Llyranor]

Michelle Thornton's perspective can be done in sequels or DLC. Obviously it'd revolve around more seduction based gameplay since chicks don't like getting dirty and getting their fingernails broken.

That's an idea. A side story/xpac/DLC/sequel in the Alpha Protocol universe where you play as Michael Thorton's mom.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Llyranor

[Solo_Dragun]

Michelle Thornton's perspective can be done in sequels or DLC. Obviously it'd revolve around more seduction based gameplay since chicks don't like getting dirty and getting their fingernails broken.

That's an idea. A side story/xpac/DLC/sequel in the Alpha Protocol universe where you play as Michael Thorton's mom.

 

 

LOL. Wait a minute... hmm... So thats why they are delaying AP.

[Oner]

Michelle Thornton's perspective can be done in sequels or DLC. Obviously it'd revolve around more seduction based gameplay since chicks don't like getting dirty and getting their fingernails broken.

It's Thorton, you blasphemer!

[Raithe]

That's an idea. A side story/xpac/DLC/sequel in the Alpha Protocol universe where you play as Michael Thorton's mom.

 

Let's try to avoid going a bit too far into Burn Notice territory shall we?

[Amentep]

I got to admit my interest in AP dipped when I read that being able to make choices in defining the character (gender) weren't going to be in.

 

I did keep up with the game and how it turned out sounds interesting so I'm willing to give it a shot (which is pretty much how I approach any game without character customization in this day and age).

[Joseph Bulock]

I got to admit my interest in AP dipped when I read that being able to make choices in defining the character (gender) weren't going to be in.

 

I did keep up with the game and how it turned out sounds interesting so I'm willing to give it a shot (which is pretty much how I approach any game without character customization in this day and age).

 

Let's be clear. You can't change the name of the character, or his gender. You can however change his abilities, and to a large extent, his appearance. Saying we don't have character customization is not accurate, nor is it fair to all of the team that worked hard to make sure players can enjoy making their own Mike Thorton.

[Slowtrain]

[. You can't change the name of the character, or his gender.

 

An approach which worked very well in Deus Ex. SO it's hardly a bad thing.

 

Invisible War, which allowed a sex choice in character creation was a massively inferior game, so there's really no correlation that such a choice makes a game better.

[Amentep]

I got to admit my interest in AP dipped when I read that being able to make choices in defining the character (gender) weren't going to be in.

 

I did keep up with the game and how it turned out sounds interesting so I'm willing to give it a shot (which is pretty much how I approach any game without character customization in this day and age).

 

Let's be clear. You can't change the name of the character, or his gender. You can however change his abilities, and to a large extent, his appearance. Saying we don't have character customization is not accurate, nor is it fair to all of the team that worked hard to make sure players can enjoy making their own Mike Thorton.

 

I'm sorry, that was poor choice of words in my case making my point unclear; I was not trying to make light of the effort that has went into the game.

 

The lack of name/gender changeability was what I was referring to; Initially it did drop my interest as its something I've - for better or worse - come to expect in modern RPGs (at least those not developed in Japan). But I didn't lose total interest in the game.

 

I kept up with the development in a vague way and the things I heard - the ability change abilities to make Mike Thorton the spy you want him to be and the unique dialogue system re-interested me in it. Certainly whenever the game comes out, it'll be one that I'll pick up. I'm not against a character who is defined to a certain extent (greater or lesser depending on the game) if the game is good enough to warrant it, and I like what I've seen so far from Alpha Protocol after my initial reaction to the early word on the game.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Amentep

[Purkake]

[. You can't change the name of the character, or his gender.

 

An approach which worked very well in Deus Ex. SO it's hardly a bad thing.

 

Invisible War, which allowed a sex choice in character creation was a massively inferior game, so there's really no correlation that such a choice makes a game better.

 

Nobody is saying it makes the game better, people are arguing that it would make the game more appealing to them.

 

Putting the choice into a crappy game won't make them game any better and the other way around, why should it?

[Amentep]

[. You can't change the name of the character, or his gender.

 

An approach which worked very well in Deus Ex. SO it's hardly a bad thing.

 

Invisible War, which allowed a sex choice in character creation was a massively inferior game, so there's really no correlation that such a choice makes a game better.

 

I don't think there's any hard coded "this is good, this is bad" approach.

 

Certainly for me, I like being able to make my protagonist be whoever I feel like making at the time of playing, including name and gender. That's my personal preference. I'm also very likely to restart any RPG I play that allows me to define any part of my PC as I try to play around with character options (not in a min-max way, but in a "who do I want this character to be" way), so I might not be the norm anyhow.

 

And there are a lot of games - good games - I've played that don't allow you to change...well anything about the character. You start as a given character with a given appearance and a given gender and a given class and you have to run with it.

 

I say this all to say that I can understand the reaction of the OP (even if it is a drive-by complaint) to being a forced gender character. I understand the same complaint from a number of people whose opinions I respect about Planescape: Torment. I loved PST, volunteered to moderate the BIS forum for it. But I also understand the appeal of having total control to define the visual and gender elements of a character and how some players can be put off by it lacking in a game.

 

Would the ability to change gender or name be a sole reason to buy a game for me? No. But it is a part of the total whole in my completely subjective evaluations about whether I want to spend money on a game or not.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Amentep

[Slowtrain]

[. You can't change the name of the character, or his gender.

 

An approach which worked very well in Deus Ex. SO it's hardly a bad thing.

 

Invisible War, which allowed a sex choice in character creation was a massively inferior game, so there's really no correlation that such a choice makes a game better.

 

Nobody is saying it makes the game better, people are arguing that it would make the game more appealing to them.

 

Putting the choice into a crappy game won't make them game any better and the other way around, why should it?

 

 

Yeah, all I'm saying is that a good game without character choices is still a good game and a bad game with character choices is still a bad game.

 

I'm not trying to define or dictate what should appeal to people.

 

If someone wants to not play Deus Ex because they are female and if they can't play the pc as a female the game doesn't appeal to them, that's fine. But they are missing out on a well made game.

 

 

From my point of view, quality games being as scarce as they are, it's not something that is worth not experincing a good game over. But to each their own.

 

We can't make the same argument for AP, of course, yet simply because we don't know how good the game is going to be.

[Grone]

Equality by default is bad. Equality in the sense of avoiding neglecting or disregarding options because of genderpreference is good. Meaning:

 

To make precisely 50 games with female protagonists and 50 games with male, because you want equality, is bad. Likewise is making 100 games with both.

 

Making sure gender is not in the mind of the developers when they create the game, but just choose whatever seems best for the game's story, is good.

 

This is because true equality between the sexes isn't when every board in every company has 50% male and 50% female members. True equality will arise only when you disregard gender as having anything to do with ability.

 

Disregarding gender when it comes to telling a story though, is not something to aim for.

 

In Alpha Protocol, they wanted to tell the story of an agent, with a Bond-like focus on suaveness as well as a ping-pong humor between the protagonists and the women in the game. This is not degrading in itself in the slightest, because its surrealism is in itself a parody on this kind of thinking in reality - just like the James Bond-flicks.

 

You can't make a male protagonist in the a Joan of Arc-type story either.

 

Genders matter, and they matter a very great deal in storytelling.

 

So no arbitrary sex-equality in my games thank you. Let's do whatever is best for the game and the story.

 

 

As for not being able to roleplay: Well, that says more about your limits as a roleplayer, than the games limit in choice of protagonists. I can roleplay girls just fine. Its a matter of personal taste and ability if you have problems roleplaying the other sex - and that's not something Obsidian should care about.

 

 

I do agree it would be very interesting to see an RPG with only a female protagonist however. Especially one that didn't show off her cleavage more than her personality. RPGs are rather lacking in this reagard, and I do understand if some of you girls feel left out and disregarded in this matter.

 

There is much reason to fight the genderbattle on the platform that is video games, but my point is: Going into that fight stating every game should host female AND male protagonists is wrong. The problem lies a whole other place; namely with the fact that very few companies even consider the option of having female protagonists - and if they do, the mainly do so because sex sells. I'm looking at you, Lara.

 

In short: The harm towards Obsidian is misdirected. The harm is legitimate, but it should be directed elsewhere.

 

- Casper (who is an active member of the feminist group in his political party, by the way)

[Purkake]

Slowtrain, I agree.

 

@Grunker: I can think of very few games where there was any significant difference to the game/story based on your gender. Can you think of some? I guess it made some difference in the Fallouts, but even that wasn't particularly dramatic.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Purkake

[kreese12]

I think asking every game company to always have the option of playing as either gender is totally unneeded. It's not being very realistic either, for most companies (and their budgets). I rather have a good story and the choice to play as one sex (and I don't care which gender), than have half the story and dialogue but the choice to be able to play as another gender.

 

I don't really mind not being able to change Mike's look or race either -- though I can see what people would expect that though. If he can wear a turban and some funny shades that's enough for me

[213374U]

@Grunker: I can think of very few games where there was any significant difference to the game/story based on your gender. Can you think of some? I guess it made some difference in the Fallouts, but even that wasn't particularly dramatic.

That's kind of the point. One of the most common complaints toward CRPGs is that, other than romance options, gender makes no difference, gameplay or storywise - it's just a skin. Forcing gender neutrality waters down the end product. By removing the gender variable, they are, hopefully, able to create a more involved and coherent world around the character.

 

Great post, Grunker.

[Purkake]

Yeah, but wasn't the OP pretty much asking for a female skin ala NWN2 etc.?

[213374U]

If it's just a skin she wants, she can mod it in herself, I'm sure. :D

[Purkake]

I'm pretty sure that AP is mostly unmoddable or very unmod-friendly.

 

Also, the voice might be an issue, you're going to be Michelle "trannysurprise" Thorton

Edited October 5, 2009 by Purkake

[Raithe]

Hey, and there they were planning on surprising folks with the Thailand hub...

[deleteduser]

Late to the party, but it doesn't bother me when I can't pick my character's gender, depending on how the game is presented/sold to me. And as I understand it, Obsidian never implied that this would be a full "create your character exactly as you want him OR her" type of RPG. This is "Alpha Protocol, where you roleplay as Michael Thorton."

 

It DOES bother me when I'm able to pick my gender, but I am then forced to be heterosexual in my dialogue responses. I find it even more infuriating when I am given homosexual responses, but only as one gender (as it was in ME, or so I hear).

 

/two cents

[Amentep]

Late to the party, but it doesn't bother me when I can't pick my character's gender, depending on how the game is presented/sold to me. And as I understand it, Obsidian never implied that this would be a full "create your character exactly as you want him OR her" type of RPG. This is "Alpha Protocol, where you roleplay as Michael Thorton."

 

It DOES bother me when I'm able to pick my gender, but I am then forced to be heterosexual in my dialogue responses. I find it even more infuriating when I am given homosexual responses, but only as one gender (as it was in ME, or so I hear).

 

/two cents

 

No I don't think it ever presented as a "create your character exactly as you want him or her"; of that Obsidian was very up front. Which I think is great since there was never any illusions about what the game wasn't going to be.

 

I am in general against offering one gender (when both are playable) certain options the other doesn't have. To use romance options, your example is one or when the male PC gets three romance options but the female gets two.

 

That said SOME difference - in how NPCs react and such should be there or why the point in allowing gender selection.

[Pop]

Won't someone think of the children?

[213374U]

Why would you want to play as a child?

[Raithe]

Why would you want to play as a child?

 

Maybe some people want to try playing as the Artful Dodger type...

Child labour laws withstanding...

[Killian Kalthorne]

Well, according to the Sega website it is out now. Where is it? Sega is the official site so I like to know why it isn't in stores yet if Sega says it is out. This would be something to be pissed about.