The value of human life

[LadyCrimson]

I was thinking about trying to make a short reply to this thread, but then I got to the end and alanschu said it all for me.

[Guard Dog]

The only "celebrity" death that has had any impact on me the last few years was when Regan passed away. But he was someone I genuienly respected and admired. The rest I feel bad for their families and friends but I don't spend any time mourning them. As for the faceless deaths in Africa and far away places. Heck, I watch the news every morning and the first 10 minuites of every broadcast is about everyone who died the previous night usually due to crime (something Memphis has no shortage of). I feel worse about that than people killed by dictators and thugs half a world away.

 

And to Lord of the Lies, to suggest that I should feel bad because I am somehow complicit in their situation, or somehow benefited from it just by being born and living where I do is absurd on it's face.

[Aristes]

A man lives with his wife and children in the manner of his ancestors. When he was a child, he had learned the ways of his ancestors, believing what he was told by his parents. His parents explained that they had learned from their mothers and fathers who in turn had been taught by their parents before them. The boy learned that the ways of his ancestors were ancient and true. As he grew older, those beliefs were tested, but he kept his faith and that faith grew stronger. He felt blessed by his ancestors and came to believe that he communed with them through the rites and prayers of his faith.

 

One night, the man slept deeply next to his wife. In his sleep, a vision came to him. He saw years pass before him as he taught the ways of his ancestors to his children and he saw those children grow strong in love and faith as he had. Years passed and people came and went. The ways of his ancestors remained true with few changes. Decades passed and his children grew and had children. His children

[Killian Kalthorne]

Human life is cheap. There are over 5 billion people on this miserable little mudball of a planet. People die all the time. people are born all the time. The only thing that separates one person's death from another is what one does that is noteworthy, what he or she has done to contribute to history and to civilization. Even that is fleeting because eventually civilization will fall and nothing of who they were will remain.

[Rosbjerg]

^ Then why not just lie down and die then..

 

Now, the question isn’t what the man thought or did. I will tell you, but the real question is what would you do? Remember that the most thoughtful or flippant of answers will be lost in time. This too shall come to pass, and it too will be forgotten. What would you do?

 

I actually had dream like that once..

 

No matter how insignificant you are, you have some impact on history.. causality is our true contribution to this world, everything you do will have an influence on others and as such his teachings and life will sow the very seeds of changes to come, even if those changes means the death of his culture. I would do, like him, as I've always done - live - and try to live the best I can. What else can you do?

[Walsingham]

I agree that there is a slightly blinkered atttitude prevalent in some political viewpoints, particularly the popular left. It spends vast amounts of time 'facing up to' the negative aspects of their country's history, and adopting conciliatory poses to the victims of their country. I say blinkered because 99% of the time the victims were in the process of behaving identically to some other poor bugger when our side landed on them with both feet. The zulus are a perfect example of this. We behaved atrociously to the zulus, but the zulu empire only existed to be squashed because of a terrifying campaign of slaughter and ethnic cleansing. The xhosa peoples they squashed had in turn behaved atrociously to the bushmen and other aboriginals before them.*

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be mindful of 'our' mistakes. But to adopt a wholly apologetic pose is intellectually dishonest, and I would argue of no value.

 

So, back on topic, I think this debate is a manifestation of LoF's desire to draw attention to a situation he is generally keen on. Not just one that reflects on MJ. But as I say I think he needs to wonder why he is so keen.

 

 

 

 

 

*So far as I'm aware the bushmen were pretty nice, but then it's hard to know what was going on before them. They probably only established dominance by punching the crap out of some wise monkeys.

[Killian Kalthorne]

^ Then why not just lie down and die then..

 

We do, eventually.

[Blarghagh]

We were done with killing American Indians in 1890. Took you until 1949 to give up in Indonesia. Maybe you should think about that?

And the Native Americans got their country back when exactly?

 

Oh, right! They became a pet charity! Just like the one you're trying to guilt people into now!

[213374U]

This thread is a trolling class act. What's scary is that the demerit is in the OP's attitude, as opposed to the substance of his posts.

 

:salutes:

[Walsingham]

Break! Break!

 

I demand an end to this thread!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8125664.stm

 

People have died.

[Blarghagh]

How DARE you draw attention to this while children are starving in Africa every second.

 

 

 

 

Damn, a lot of recent plane crashes. That sucks. That always kills a whole bunch of people in one go.

[lord of flies]

Unfortunately the OP has stripped humanity from the discussion entirely, ironically while trying to educate those about the inhumanity of conditions in poor countries. Here's why people care about the deaths of celebrities more than the deaths in Africa. The celebrity has, in some way, contributing something to the life of that person. Whether it be entertainment, adulation, or whatever. Many people are affected by the death of Michael Jackson (a rich "white" guy I guess), because they grew up listening to his music. It's not a coincidence that, when I got home from work the day he passed, my roommate was watching the music video for Thriller. I stuck around and watched it too, because I have a ton of positive memories and so much nostalgia attached to it. My friends and I (whom I didn't even know until recently) can still bust out into the dance because we did it so much as a kid.

 

No disrespect to the many lives wasted in Africa, but I have zero context whatsoever for their lives. I haven't perceived them having any influence on my life at all, even if maybe they had.

Who do you think mined the Coltan to produce your computer, PS2, et cetera? Hmm?

The only "celebrity" death that has had any impact on me the last few years was when Regan passed away. But he was someone I genuienly respected and admired.

Bad news, Reagan was a terrible monster who caused many, many deaths and supported Apartheid. Your respect for him is thusly despicable in context.

And to Lord of the Lies, to suggest that I should feel bad because I am somehow complicit in their situation, or somehow benefited from it just by being born and living where I do is absurd on it's face.

Uh, you do in fact benefit from the third world, just FYI.

I agree that there is a slightly blinkered atttitude prevalent in some political viewpoints, particularly the popular left. It spends vast amounts of time 'facing up to' the negative aspects of their country's history, and adopting conciliatory poses to the victims of their country. I say blinkered because 99% of the time the victims were in the process of behaving identically to some other poor bugger when our side landed on them with both feet. The zulus are a perfect example of this. We behaved atrociously to the zulus, but the zulu empire only existed to be squashed because of a terrifying campaign of slaughter and ethnic cleansing. The xhosa peoples they squashed had in turn behaved atrociously to the bushmen and other aboriginals before them.*

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be mindful of 'our' mistakes. But to adopt a wholly apologetic pose is intellectually dishonest, and I would argue of no value.

Oh look, tu quoque, and combined with a justification for imperialism to boot? What do you think that every single conquering empire thought of its deeds throughout history? If you read their literature, it's clear that every last one of them thinks they were doing what was right, protecting the natives from themselves. Apocalypto was not a documentary.

[Rostere]

Indonesian backs is better than Native American blood, you arrogant, trolling sob.

 

Ad hominem? I find it fascinating that (some of) those who are arguing against LoF accuse him of being a troll, yet keep their own comments on this kind of level. Could this subject be so hard to discuss in a civilized way?

[Llyranor]

Who do you think mined the Coltan to produce your computer, PS2, et cetera? Hmm?

Yeah, alanschu. You're just choosing to remain unaffected because it's convenient and beneficial for you. You're nothing more than an accessory to murder.

[Gfted1]

While I caught up with this thread, 46 Africans died.

[213374U]

Indonesian backs is better than Native American blood, you arrogant, trolling sob.

 

Ad hominem?

Style over substance?

 

Takes one to know one.

[Fionavar]

Derailment Monitor ... 7.8!

 

*wonders if it actually started derailed ...

 

**watches from the Roost

 

FLoSD.ObE

[taks]

Ad hominem?

nope, just an insult.

 

ad hominem literally means "to the man," which is somewhat meaningless, so "ad hominem" and insult aren't really synonymous, though i do realize the phrase is short for the argumentum ad hominem fallacy. however, calling an insult an ad hominem (or even argumentum ad hominem) is actually an ad hominem fallacy fallacy, i.e., insults such as these are not even argumentum ad hominem fallacies. here's a good description of the whole thing.

 

now, some rewording and reorganizing to "you are wrong because you are an arrogant trolling sob," and it would have been an argumentum ad hominem.

 

taks

[Rostere]

Ad hominem?

nope, just an insult.

 

ad hominem literally means "to the man," which is somewhat meaningless, so "ad hominem" and insult aren't really synonymous, though i do realize the phrase is short for the argumentum ad hominem fallacy. however, calling an insult an ad hominem (or even argumentum ad hominem) is actually an ad hominem fallacy fallacy, i.e., insults such as these are not even argumentum ad hominem fallacies. here's a good description of the whole thing.

 

now, some rewording and reorganizing to "you are wrong because you are an arrogant trolling sob," and it would have been an argumentum ad hominem.

 

taks

 

You are of course correct in what you write, I percieved T_Ns comment as trying to strengthen his position by accusing LoF of being a troll (a rationale for ignoring someone). Writing "ad hominem" instead of "argumentum ad hominem" and expecting everyone to understand is definitely something one could argue against, but it's nonetheless something I tend to do for some reason.

[Llyranor]

I just assumed you were full of it.

 

Full of Hades, that is.

[lord of flies]

Indonesian backs is better than Native American blood, you arrogant, trolling sob.

 

Ad hominem? I find it fascinating that (some of) those who are arguing against LoF accuse him of being a troll, yet keep their own comments on this kind of level. Could this subject be so hard to discuss in a civilized way?

Actually, that's tu quoque, not ad hominem. "Yes, my people killed some browns in a brutal campaign to create a colonial empire, as did yours."

[kirottu]

See all? Latin will never die as long as there is mighty e-pen battles at internets.

[Blarghagh]

Ad hominem?

 

Not really. He commented on something I said in a way that was entirely designed to insult me, I replied in kind.

 

I get carried away sometimes. Apologies (not to LoF).

[Kelverin]

Never has this picture been more appropriate.

 

[taks]

i think posting on the web makes you retarded, win or lose. i can feel my IQ dropping as i tap the keys.

 

taks