Gizmo Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 god i hate this one ****ing thread bull****. Yeah... "Obsidian Making Fallout:New Vegas" would be better suiting as a top level category with three or four threads within. (even if just those few.)
fastpunk Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) god i hate this one ****ing thread bull****. Yeah... "Obsidian Making Fallout:New Vegas" would be better suiting as a top level category with three or four threads within. (even if just those few.) You know what would be perfect? A Fallout: New Vegas sub-forum over here on the Obsidian website. Edited May 13, 2009 by fastpunk "We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 You know what would be perfect? A Fallout: New Vegas sub-forum over here on the Obsidian website. seeing as how i'm banned4life from Bethiesoft so the link in the fake FO:NV forum is worthless to me, yeah. it would. hopw roewur ne?
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Banned for life, Twink? Say it ain't so. (j/k) That is one thing I do hate about the Bethesda boards, no fraking sense of humor. They are just a little more draconian than Bioware when it comes to their rules. At least here when a flame war starts the developers sometimes join in. HAHAHAHA! Personally I think we need to have the primary forums here. If Obsidian is developing the game, the forums should be here and nowhere else. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Banned for life, Twink? Say it ain't so. (j/k) That is one thing I do hate about the Bethesda boards, no fraking sense of humor. They are just a little more draconian than Bioware when it comes to their rules. At least here when a flame war starts the developers sometimes join in. HAHAHAHA! Personally I think we need to have the primary forums here. If Obsidian is developing the game, the forums should be here and nowhere else. mark it down, man. the first time KK and TG agree. hopw roewur ne?
Tagaziel Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Writing good dialogue is an art and harder than one would think, and Bethesda is behind the curve by a good 5 to 6 years compared to Obsidian and Bioware, but they are improving since Morrowind. If they don't revert back with TES5, by TES6 or Fallout 5 we may have Bioware level dialogue. By TES8 or Fallout 7 they might reach where Obsidian is currently at. Morrowind's writing wasn't bad. On the contrary, it was average to good. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Writing good dialogue is an art and harder than one would think, and Bethesda is behind the curve by a good 5 to 6 years compared to Obsidian and Bioware, but they are improving since Morrowind. If they don't revert back with TES5, by TES6 or Fallout 5 we may have Bioware level dialogue. By TES8 or Fallout 7 they might reach where Obsidian is currently at. Morrowind's writing wasn't bad. On the contrary, it was average to good. What ever happened to the writers on Morrowind? What happened to Peterson?
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 "i've actually argued many times that videogames cannot truly be art because their primary goal is capital gain. art, in it's pure form...exists because the artist has something inside which needs to be purged. selling your art should be an afterthought meant to expose yourself to the greatest audience possible. but creating art with the intention to constantly compromise in order to make money immediately changes it from art to commodity. though i WILL argue to the death that some games are, to use a turn of phrase, more of a "work of art" than others. some games held onto their integrity and sunk their artistic principles so deep into them that they said "i hope people want a game like this. here goes nothin'" and you know what? that's why we have games like Grim Fandango, Fallout and Planescape." what a load of self-indulgent nonsense. am not sure if we would use "purge" to describe the artistic imperative, but regardless, rare is the artist who is satisfied with the act o' creation. art and ego is inextricably intertwined as the artist most often fight pretty damned hard to get his art appreciated by the multitude. how many years and how many publishers did Joyce go through to gets Dubliners published? there is almost never "art, in its pure form" as you describe. art is as much 'bout ego as it is 'bout creation; the artist has a need for his art to be experienced, even as he sneers at the unappreciative and unlettered masses. now, as for lack o' compromise being integral to art... that too is a suspect notion. Dickens wrote many o' his works as part o' magazine serializations. why he got those wacky cliffhangers and Dickensian moments? 'cause his muse told him to do so, or 'cause that were the kinda stuff that sold magazines? ever read Dumas? the repetition and redundancy in his dialogues were almost hypnotic... and as he were getting paid by the word much o' his style is readily explained. go through the vast record o' published works from the past few centuries and read up on the actual history o' how artist works went from your purged product to published work and we thinks you find that there is a goodly number o' authors who compromised and yet were still able to produce great works o' art. am not even gonna get into specific dramatic works. anybody who has been involved in theatre can probable explain just how much compromise is involved in getting a dramatic work from writer's final draft to actual stage performance. try to take the commercial aspect out o' a major dramatic production. nevertheless, we expect that there has been some few plays released over the years that qualify as art, in spite o' the compromise that invariably were part o' the production. games, much like plays, not got A artist. is a collaboration of multiple folks working together (HA!) to creates a single product that hopefully sells well during the first 2 quarters following release. how many writers is working on typical game? is it even possible to have those people work on one project and Not compromise? games is also having technical demands... so as much as a writer might wish to stand firm to his principles, perhaps certain aspects cannot be realized or actualized 'cause it just ain't possible to bring writer's vision to life. josh talks a good game 'bout games being taken serious, but even he has thrown sacrifices on the altar o' necessity. am recalling how Gromnir personally blasted him for HoW. josh finally admits that HoW production suffered from a surfeit o' resources. as much as Josh wanted to do certain sooper-groovy-kool stuff on burial island, he couldn't: not enough resources and not enough time. and let us not forget The Money. troika takes on toee, a game that is 'posed to be part of a series of d&d games with a short development cycle. Is not as if atari hid the fact that they wanted toee to be first o' a bunch o' cheap-to-make and quick release products. troika took on the toee job with complete understanding o' the motivations o' atari. does such a scenario prevent art? why? "You have X months and Y florins. now go make me some art." isn't that kinda how things worked during the Renaissance with patron and artist relationship? has been some okie dokie games made that way. and more than a few notable works o' art. heck, the fact that iwd were so successful (more successful than fo by far) contributed to fact that it took so long for a fo3 to gets made. ask fergie for the explanation. as for specific games noted... ps:t, unlike many games, were more 'bout One-Man's-Vision than were the typical game, but given the success o' bg and the infinity engine, and recognizing that planescape were an extreme popular setting for tsr, the notion that ps:t were simply a labor o' love wherein the "artist" ignored the wants and desires o' the grubby masses as he built his magnum opus is... silly. am sure that there were dozzens o' things that got "compromised" right out of ps:t. wacky naivete regarding purging and uncompromising artists is... quaint. is even less meaningful when you tries to apply to fo. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 hey, gromnir. just checked out of curiousity. maybe you didn't notice when i told you...i have you on ignore and i'm not going to indulge in your forum-LARP games. wanna talk about self-indulgent nonsense? give your posts a read through, something i'm not inclined to do. want conversation? drop the LARP. until then you can continue having one-sided conversations with me until the end of time. hopw roewur ne?
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Writing good dialogue is an art and harder than one would think, and Bethesda is behind the curve by a good 5 to 6 years compared to Obsidian and Bioware, but they are improving since Morrowind. If they don't revert back with TES5, by TES6 or Fallout 5 we may have Bioware level dialogue. By TES8 or Fallout 7 they might reach where Obsidian is currently at. Morrowind's writing wasn't bad. On the contrary, it was average to good. got any examples? am not being flippant, but Gromnir is having difficulty recalling memorable dialogue from morrowind. if we can't recall, then chances are it weren't particular good. "hey, gromnir. just checked out of curiousity. maybe you didn't notice when i told you...i have you on ignore and i'm not going to indulge in your forum-LARP games. wanna talk about self-indulgent nonsense? give your posts a read through, something i'm not inclined to do. want conversation? drop the LARP. until then you can continue having one-sided conversations with me until the end of time." is amusing that twinkie is such a narcissist that he believes we care for his responses. Gromnir responsds to inanities and stoopidities without some kinda desire to be validated, so it not genuine matter if he or grizzly or vol or vis responds.... and to be honest, our dialogues with twink has become more interesting once he stopped responding... all too predictable. don't anybody spoil the joke, eh? HA! Good Fun! Edited May 13, 2009 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Now now, Twink, there is no need to be rude. Grommie is just being Grommie. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Now now, Twink, there is no need to be rude. Grommie is just being Grommie. don't care. i can't be arsed to read his pretend playtime posts. hopw roewur ne?
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 You are assuming he is pretending. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 You are assuming he is pretending. don't make me laugh. hopw roewur ne?
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) I dont know if Morrowind had strong dialogue but I do remember is had strong lore. Its had a world I was interested in exploring. It had life despite not having radiant AI or whatever other buzzwords Oblivion had. I mean, what happened to the art team behind Morrowind? They give that place something words and better graphics couldnt. Edited May 13, 2009 by Promethean
Gfted1 Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) While were talking about Gromnir Ive had a question Ive been meaning to ask for years. In BGII there is a mini-boss named Gromnir Il-Kahn, which I think Gromnir used to go by back in the day. Was that name used in the game due to Gromnir winning something or was the nick lifted from the game? Which came first? Edited May 13, 2009 by Gfted1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I dont know if Morrowind had strong dialogue but I do remember is had strong lore. Its had a world I was interested in exploring. It had life despite not having radiant AI or whatever other buzzwords Oblivion had. I mean, what happened to the art team behind Morrowind? They give that place something words and better graphics couldnt. am getting that you found the setting more compelling in morrowind than you did in oblivion. however, the essential question remains: why? "strong lore" just not mean much in and of itself. and as for compare morrowind to fo3, we thinks bethesda did a pretty darn good job with fo setting in a localized geographical area. as long as you not bring in fo or fo2, post apoc washington were done very well by bethesda with discussion o' current power groups such as enclave and mercenary groups, as well as the vaults and such. take out your fo pre knowledge o' how fo is 'posed to be, and we thinks that bethesda did a darn good job with setting... far better than morrowind or oblivion. in fact, possibly the best attribute o' fo3 were the setting. HA! Good Fun! ps short answer: Gromnir, the poster, existed considerable before Gromnir the tob game character. not mean anything other than a developer ha-ha moment. "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 To change subject for a second, Gromnir, what parts of Bioware games, writing wise did you like? Cause I find them entirely to derivative most of the time, especially after BG II, and every attempt they have made at romances are really cringe inducing. So what do you like about them? Or what characters?
Hurlshort Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I think the strong lore refers to the unique setting, races, species, architecture, and environment. My first sandstorm was very memorable. Oblivion was much more of a standard fantasy setting, and a lot of people found that much less engaging.
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) I think the strong lore refers to the unique setting, races, species, architecture, and environment. My first sandstorm was very memorable. Oblivion was much more of a standard fantasy setting, and a lot of people found that much less engaging. Thats what I was getting at, and why I mentioned the art style. Oblivion just look like generic fantasy land I've seen in games and movies a thousand times before. Shivering Isle was still pretty bad, but at least it looked interesting, and I mantain art style is orders of magnitude more important to a game then pretty graphics. Edited May 13, 2009 by Promethean
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) To change subject for a second, Gromnir, what parts of Bioware games, writing wise did you like? Cause I find them entirely to derivative most of the time, especially after BG II, and every attempt they have made at romances are really cringe inducing. So what do you like about them? Or what characters? bgii is seeming invariably under or overrated. the macbeth stuff were excellent and is a shame that so few folks played bards as the bard stronghold were particular well done and reinforced parallels 'tween and twixt the bg2 main characters and those from macbeth. irenicus were an excellent antagonist, but sadly he were underdeveloped at crucial end part o' game; the lazy reader could easily see irenicus as the typical mad-for-power wizard. blame not on lazy players but on lazy writers. the circus tent quest were well-done, if brief... does a fair good job o' foreshadowing without being ham-fisted 'bout it... get more macbeth. generally we enjoyed the party npc dialogues. etc. (we can go on considerable with a number o' the good quests... some o' the dream sequence stuff were actually pretty good too, if not really our kinda shtick.) side note... am gonna agree that the romances were terrible, and am sad that they were so popular as the tangential and optional romance became a bioware staple afterward. even worse, horrible and abbreviated romance in bgii were so popular that other game developers began to adopt similar models. terrible. I think the strong lore refers to the unique setting, races, species, architecture, and environment. My first sandstorm was very memorable. Oblivion was much more of a standard fantasy setting, and a lot of people found that much less engaging. Thats what I was getting at, and why I mentioned the art style. Oblivion just look like generic fantasy land I've seen in games and movies a thousand times before. Shivering Isle was still pretty bad, but at least it looked interesting, and I mantain art style is orders of magnitude more important to a game then pretty graphics. and again, even if we ignore writing complete and go with gestalt regarding setting, we still wonder how one can laud morrowind and sneer at fo3. bethesda did a fantastic job with the fo3 setting. HA! Good Fun! Edited May 13, 2009 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) I think Fallout 3's writng plus how many times I had to suspend disbelief hurt the setting for me. I really liked it at first, but the immersion breaking was too much. It was stuck between FO and FO2 and I guess that just wasnt the setting I wanted. Also the general question of why am I exploring? A lot of the places just ended up being similar hallways filled with similar things in similar buildings. Eventually it was just my OCD for getting 100% that kept me going. In Morrowind the scenery changed like every 10 minutes of walking. In Fallout is was either out of the city, in the city, in the subway, in a building or in a cave, with lots o copypasta textures and assets. What about post BG? I really liked BG writing wise as well. And I like KotOR cause its captured the OT feel. But what about other than that? Edited May 13, 2009 by Promethean
Pop Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 As far as atmosphere goes I think Bethsoft did a pretty fantastic job with F3. I wasn't happy with the relative polarization of its moral universe, but then as Grom acknowledges F3 loses a bit of its luster in comparison to the first two games. Still I think they passed the sniff test. It just makes me anticipate F:NV more. Join me, and we shall make Production Beards a reality!
Cl_Flushentityhero Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 As far as atmosphere goes I think Bethsoft did a pretty fantastic job with F3. I wasn't happy with the relative polarization of its moral universe, but then as Grom acknowledges F3 loses a bit of its luster in comparison to the first two games. Still I think they passed the sniff test. It just makes me anticipate F:NV more. This.
Aram Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) hey, gromnir. just checked out of curiousity. maybe you didn't notice when i told you...i have you on ignore and i'm not going to indulge in your forum-LARP games. wanna talk about self-indulgent nonsense? give your posts a read through, something i'm not inclined to do. want conversation? drop the LARP. until then you can continue having one-sided conversations with me until the end of time. Personally I'm about to put you on ignore because you're such a whiny dip****. You also use no punctuation and every third word you say is "lulz" so don't whine at people about how they post. Edited May 13, 2009 by Aram
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