Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Kjarista]

i disagree. you'll (knowing you) attempt to argue this, but it's such an obvious argument when one game is an FPS, iso games...like PnP games require the cooperation of the player's imagination and the games resources. personal preference? maybe. i guess i got into cRPG's before FPS existed, so it just never seemed necessary to the genre to me. anyway, i think they all did a pretty great job of this. i have no complaints or praises for either camp more than the other.

 

Ya, this is a strange argument. On one hand folks (I cant remember if you do this...I ought to include you just for Drama's sake) argue that they can't possibly imagine anything that's not spelled out in the game specifically, then they argue that people don't like ISO because the lack imagination.

 

When I was in the military, we used to sit around the hotel room and play DnD, with no dice...with nothing but our collective imaginations. That PnP experience...the root of it...the collective imagination, is all that is needed to roleplay. All the rest is window dressing...the rules, the stats, the environment, are nothing without that imagination.

 

Yet folks want huge, complex stories, apparently because it's easier, and they want rock solid rules, apparently because it's easier, and they want solo games, apparently because it's easier. RPGs have been dummied down because kids these days grew up watching TV and playing console games...no imagination required. When I grew up, I played swordfighting with stick out in the yard and palying with all kinds of stuffed critters my mom made for me. Times have changed.

[Malcador]

i certainly get why Bethie used up every last idea the original devs thought of, though. on the one hand they figured they'd be damned if they "went too far" from beloved canon of the hardcore fan-base (yet in doing so, hilariously stepped on their own feet...losing some major cred-points by not coming up with a single original idea) and on the other hand they must have thought "well, these are such great ideas...we don't have to spend the time coming up with our own ideas...these are tried and true. all we have to do is shine 'em up and introduce them to the "lol'sploshun" crowd and we've got some major greenbacks in our pocket.

 

Hah, couldn't agree more. One thing I did like about stepping out of the vault..after the recoiling in disbelief at the "hey want to redo your character?" screen anyway, was the way the screen represented your eyes adjusting to the sunlight. Reminded me of Fallout's note about the Vault Dweller seeing sunlight for the first time in his life. After that, nothing else got the same reaction, heh.

[Pidesco]

I know I'm not the only one who felt that the achievement, karmic good & evil, and level up ka-ching sounds were a little bit jarring...

 

Ya, now I get it...that was unfortunate, but it still was one of the greatest gaming moments for me.

 

I really hope you haven't played many games.

[Kjarista]

I know I'm not the only one who felt that the achievement, karmic good & evil, and level up ka-ching sounds were a little bit jarring...

 

Ya, now I get it...that was unfortunate, but it still was one of the greatest gaming moments for me.

 

I really hope you haven't played many games.

 

That's cute.

[Malcador]

I know I'm not the only one who felt that the achievement, karmic good & evil, and level up ka-ching sounds were a little bit jarring...

 

Ya, now I get it...that was unfortunate, but it still was one of the greatest gaming moments for me.

 

You left "in Fallout 3" out of your post, I think. If so, I'd probably agree with you. Whoever decided the ka-ching sound was needed, cool or anyway positive deserves a smack.

[Kjarista]

I know I'm not the only one who felt that the achievement, karmic good & evil, and level up ka-ching sounds were a little bit jarring...

 

Ya, now I get it...that was unfortunate, but it still was one of the greatest gaming moments for me.

 

You left "in Fallout 3" out of your post, I think. If so, I'd probably agree with you. Whoever decided the ka-ching sound was needed, cool or anyway positive deserves a smack.

 

Ya, I might ignore you here as well.

[Promethean]

i disagree. you'll (knowing you) attempt to argue this, but it's such an obvious argument when one game is an FPS, iso games...like PnP games require the cooperation of the player's imagination and the games resources. personal preference? maybe. i guess i got into cRPG's before FPS existed, so it just never seemed necessary to the genre to me. anyway, i think they all did a pretty great job of this. i have no complaints or praises for either camp more than the other.

 

Ya, this is a strange argument. On one hand folks (I cant remember if you do this...I ought to include you just for Drama's sake) argue that they can't possibly imagine anything that's not spelled out in the game specifically, then they argue that people don't like ISO because the lack imagination.

 

When I was in the military, we used to sit around the hotel room and play DnD, with no dice...with nothing but our collective imaginations. That PnP experience...the root of it...the collective imagination, is all that is needed to roleplay. All the rest is window dressing...the rules, the stats, the environment, are nothing without that imagination.

 

Yet folks want huge, complex stories, apparently because it's easier, and they want rock solid rules, apparently because it's easier, and they want solo games, apparently because it's easier. RPGs have been dummied down because kids these days grew up watching TV and playing console games...no imagination required. When I grew up, I played swordfighting with stick out in the yard and palying with all kinds of stuffed critters my mom made for me. Times have changed.

 

What!?

 

And besides, CRPGs cant possibly be like PnP, just like a game cant possibly be a movie or a play cant be a novel. And they shouldnt try to be.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Promethean

[Malcador]

Well you're overreacting here already so, hah. You can't seriously rate that as one of the greatest gaming moments of all time.

[Jaesun]

http://www.earlyvegas.com/contents_page.html

 

Net site with some video footage of early Vegas.

 

Would be neat to see some of those old casino's in New Vegas.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Ya, this is a strange argument. On one hand folks (I cant remember if you do this...I ought to include you just for Drama's sake) argue that they can't possibly imagine anything that's not spelled out in the game specifically, then they argue that people don't like ISO because the lack imagination.

 

When I was in the military, we used to sit around the hotel room and play DnD, with no dice...with nothing but our collective imaginations. That PnP experience...the root of it...the collective imagination, is all that is needed to roleplay. All the rest is window dressing...the rules, the stats, the environment, are nothing without that imagination.

 

Yet folks want huge, complex stories, apparently because it's easier, and they want rock solid rules, apparently because it's easier, and they want solo games, apparently because it's easier. RPGs have been dummied down because kids these days grew up watching TV and playing console games...no imagination required. When I grew up, I played swordfighting with stick out in the yard and palying with all kinds of stuffed critters my mom made for me. Times have changed.

 

maybe it's the bourbon, but i actually cannot figure this post out. is there a [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] placement i'm missing?

 

And besides, CRPGs cant possibly be like PnP, just like a game cant possibly be a movie or a play cant be a novel. And they shouldnt try to be.

 

well...not quite the point, imo. cRPG's were an attempt at emulating the PnP experience onto a computer. quite literally. so when comparing cRPG's to each other, it's only natural to cite PnP style gaming.

[Promethean]

 

Oh the colors. Its like candy for the eyes.

[bhlaab]

It wasn't seeing the wasteland for the first time that impressed me, it was the whole Vault sequence. I actually felt an attachment to Amata and the other characters because you actually got to see them grow and establish themselves over time. It was interesting to play through what it's like to be locked away in the vault. By the end I wanted to leave, but I was sad about leaving everyone behind. Returning later was also fun to see how I completely destroyed everybody's lives by leaving.

 

Two problems:

-a long series of linear, scripted sequences does NOT hold up on subsequent playthroughs especially since it's a tutorial sequence stretched out to 20 min in length

-the rest of the game doesn't hold up, narrative-wise, either.

 

As for fps vs iso, I thought the little text description "For the first time in your life, you see natural sunlight" from Fallout 1 had a lot more impact than 3's extreme bloom effect

[Tigranes]

I actually felt an attachment to Amata and the other characters because you actually got to see them grow and establish themselves over time.

 

The way they did this was great. I just couldn't care about Amata because everything in her dialogue, voice acting and behaviour suggested a generic, honey-sweet, unconvincing "Really Likes You And Passively Accepts Everything You Do And Will Help You Out And Give You Tips" videogame invention. (Like our certain Bioware-engineered friend...)

 

Then, you go to Moira and even though I couldn't stand the disgusting voice acting and half of what she said made no sense (nonsense is not always wacky, e.g. see Ctrl Alt Del's crazy chef = not funny, just crap), at least they tried to give her some sort of angle and personality.

 

Nevertheless, the way they delivered Amata was good; I think most of the problem lay in the fact that you couldn't skip it in subsequent playthroughs, as you say.

[bhlaab]

I'd say the only NPC that gets even remotely close to the people in vault 101 is the girl from the Declaration of Independence quest, but of course as soon as the quest ends she refuses to join you and pisses off to the ghoul underworld to sit around and offer fetch quests

[Wombat]

About sand-box gameplay after skimming through the thread.

 

Both KotORII and Planescape: Torment have more or less fixed protagonist backgrounds, which won't fit FO series. If New Vegas is going to be story-focused at all, I think it will use the format of New Reno with some factions to join/meddle. Hopefully, there would be some desert area for exploration, too, since personally, I think it would be nice if New Vegas turned out to be somewhere in the middle of FO and FO2. In fact, this is why I mentioned hybrid fast-travel and open reputation system since I think they would have some benefits in combining both worlds.

[Gizmo]

And just for the record, stepping out of Vault 101 and seeing for the first time the immense wasteland was one of the best game moments for me. Had one in Fallout too: The intro movie. As far as the dire feeling of wasteland, I think FO3 did taht better than the earlier 2 games.

IMO the opening intro for FO3 pales to FO1 ~ and is almost on par with FO2. (It again follows the pattern; Pelrman's script was not that great in FO2, but even less so in FO3).

 

 

well...not quite the point, imo. cRPG's were an attempt at emulating the PnP experience onto a computer. quite literally. so when comparing cRPG's to each other, it's only natural to cite PnP style gaming.

I would say that not all cRPG's were that way, though many were, and Fallout absolutely was.

 

It wasn't seeing the wasteland for the first time that impressed me, it was the whole Vault sequence.

I still can't watch the vault door open without mild annoyance at them having made a blast-door [designed to deflect an exterior explosion] ~open inward.

 

*The only reason to have it open inward is if the vault has a pressurized atmosphere; but with a door of that weight, opening inward wouldn't be necessary (the pressure to pop the door would kill the occupants).

Edited May 1, 2009 by Gizmo

[bhlaab]

I still can't watch the vault door open without mild annoyance at them having made a blast-door [designed to deflect an exterior explosion] ~open inward.

 

Okay, me too. But just mentioning that makes me feel like my social life is slipping away so I try not to focus on it.

I can see why they did it. They want you to be able to see the Interesting Thing that's happening to the door, and without the isometric perspective it has to open from the inside.

 

IMO the opening intro for FO3 pales to FO1 ~ and is almost on par with FO2. (It again follows the pattern, and Pelrman's script was not that great in FO2, but even less so in FO3).

 

Oh God don't even get me started on that. Before I played it I was like "It's ron perlman doing his thing, it can't NOT be great!"

 

And then the first line had to be ****ing "SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME...!" of ALL THINGS it had to be since the dawn of time.

 

War, War never changes.

Since the dawn of time

In a world

Where one man

Can stand up

And fight for justice...

[Hurlshort]

I think he was referring to the whole intro. tutorial experience. It was awesome in F3. It was lame in F2 and it didn't exist in F1.

[Pop]

I didn't think it was very awesome in F3.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Its only awesome the first time. Afterwards you just wish you could skip it.

 

Or you can do the smart thing and keep a save right before leaving the vault, allowing you to change anything.

[Gizmo]

I think he was referring to the whole intro. tutorial experience. It was awesome in F3. It was lame in F2 and it didn't exist in F1.

Well, no... I was speaking of the opening cutscenes of all three games.

 

The tutorial to FO3 was for all intents, the same as Oblivion ~but drawn out a bit.

 

FO1 & 2 were designed so that your PC was the next to be sent out on the mission, and if your PC dies and you restart, then your new PC is the next to be sent on the mission. (There were at least 3 previous Vault-Dwellers to be found in FO1 ~2 of them dead).

 

Fallout 3 breaks this and grooms your special character from birth, then basically copies Oblivion from then on...

Your PC dies and you have to go through the whole thing all over again.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Gizmo

[Aristes]

I thought the intro to Fallout 3 was quite clever. ...And I mean that as the good sort of clever, not the "you're just making points in an argument" clever. The child's ABC book made me chuckle the first time I saw it. I will own that replaying the sequence was frustrating for me, but mostly because I couldn't skip certain parts. I think it would have been okay to force the player to go through the intro the first time but skip it (or truncate it in some way) on subsequent starts. As a fan of the series, I thought they did a great job with the Fallout feel, even though the similarities between Oblivion and Fallout 3 were apparent to me immediately.

 

Now, on Bethesda's part, they probably figured that most folks wouldn't be bothered too terribly much on repeating the intro. For me, that's true. I was frustrated by it because I tend to be impatient, but I wasn't excessively angry. I just clicked through the dialogue. However, it's not like there weren't parts of either 1 or 2 where I didn't click through the dialogue because I'd memorized it.

 

Mostly, I think comparisons between Fallout 1/2 and Fallout 3 become less relevant as time passes. Beth's already hardened their hearts to hardcore fans of the first two games. I don't like draconian rules on a message board, but I can at least understand the way Bethesda approached the fan base. Hell, they probably decided to throw over the hardcore fans as too volatile before they even purchased the rights.

 

As someone who enjoyed Fallout 2 more than Fallout 1, I have to say that it's kind of refreshing that the Fallout 1 fans have a new target for their ire. haha

 

The upshot is, I think folks who argue from a Fallout 1/2 perspective are marginalizing themselves somewhat, although I have hopes that like... well some poster above... said about the success of Fallout 3 leading to different games from the franchise which could include an isometric game with turn based combat. After all, that what I want also.

 

Obsidian has proved to be quite good at intros, so I have high hopes for NV. In fact, I think the KotOR 2 intro is a classic.

[Tigranes]

I wasn't excessively angry.

 

It's super boring the second time you have to sit there and gaa gaa while your dad comes back. Temple of Trials was boring as hell as well, but you'd think Bethesda would learn from a publisher-forced, immersion-stretching, publicly-disavowed affair that was ToT.

 

But then, even the best tutorials suffer from unskipability (Irenicus' Dungeon, Peragus, etc).

[Promethean]

Well Peragus was integral to the story so its not like you should be able to skip it. T3's mad dash to save the Ebon Hawk is the real tutorial. And its a great one.

 

Since T3 is awesome.

[Wombat]

Obsidian has proved to be quite good at intros, so I have high hopes for NV. In fact, I think the KotOR 2 intro is a classic.

If I took you right, I'm yet another who lament that games that focus on writing became quite rare especially in major game market. The Witcher and Mask of the Betrayer are pleasant exceptions but, at the same time, I couldn't but notice they have no console port*. So, I think somewhere between FO and FO2 would be reasonable in terms of identity of Obsidian and the reality in the current game industry.

 

*Well, story is bit more complicated for the Witcher but I guess I can skip it especially now...

 

FO3 gameplay seems to be O.K. So, I guess minor tweaks would be enough in this area. New implementations in this area would not only be costing but also dangerous considering that it unavoidably includes quality management ranging from dependency issues, re-balancing, AI tweaks and final polishes... Even if there are new implementations, I hope it will not be too complex. The game-play nowadays mean more than text-based descriptions, so, even if some ideas may sound good in theory wouldn't be as good in the final outcome.

 

It's super boring the second time you have to sit there and gaa gaa while your dad comes back. Temple of Trials was boring as hell as well, but you'd think Bethesda would learn from a publisher-forced, immersion-stretching, publicly-disavowed affair that was ToT.

 

But then, even the best tutorials suffer from unskipability (Irenicus' Dungeon, Peragus, etc).

In shot, "give us an option of skipping intro." Yes, I felt the same thing with Oblivion but I didn't need the implementation since my interest in the game was waned quickly. The lack of the content was that severe to me.