Wombat Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) We are going in circles O.K. I felt in the same way. lol @ people defending any aspect of Oblivion. I was not trying to defend any game but was simply trying to figure out how design decision worked and why they were so successful, which is, unfortunately or fortunately, an unignorable fact. Edited April 23, 2009 by Wombat
Slowtrain Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I was not trying to defend any game but was simply trying to figure out how design decision worked and why they were so successful, which is, unfortunately or fortunately, an unignorable fact. I don't think the leveling rate in either game contributed to its success or failure. As show by the number of mods that change the leveling rate for both games (and for Oblivion the number of mods that attempt to complete rework the entire horribly broken skill.levelign system), a lot of people don't like the levelign rates thta Bethesda gives their games. Its illogical from a design pov: huge big world with lots of combat that EMPHASIZES exploration combined with a super high leveling rate. The games go by way too fast. Oblivion especially. But Bethesda appears to BELIEVE it is what people want. I just think they are terrified of boring customers with short attention spans Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Wombat Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 But Bethesda appears to BELIEVE it is what people want. I just think they are terrified of boring customers with short attention spans However, it doesn't explain why so many people bought the game. If it hadn't sold well, then, I wouldn't even bother to try to figure it out.
Slowtrain Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 But Bethesda appears to BELIEVE it is what people want. I just think they are terrified of boring customers with short attention spans However, it doesn't explain why so many people bought the game. If it hadn't sold well, then, I wouldn't even bother to try to figure it out. People bought the game because they wanted a crpg. After the bought the game they discovered the leveling rates were completely b0rked. I don't know if you remember, but almost immediately after Oblivion came out, even before people had started making mods, people were complaining about the leveling rate and everybody started making metagamed characters that put their most used/automatic skills in minor slots and filled up the major slots with skills they either didn't use or whose usage could be controlled. Just to slow down the leveling. Once large mods like miods like OOO started appearing and other smaller mods that made changes only to the skill systems/leveling rates, pc players could staop doing this, but console players still had no choice. Oblivion is a worst-case scenario and FO3 wasn't AS bad, but Bethesda apppears to believe in super fast leveling even though there's a large number of players who don't like it. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Tigranes Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 People buy games even if they are not happy with some of the decisions. It doesn't excuse the decisions. I do think that overall and on many counts FO3 was an improvement over Oblivion, and i was pleased tos ee that. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress)
Hell Kitty Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I also remember a very creepy series of questions about sex with corpses in Oblivion. That conversation was to explain why the player character starts out in a cell. The dirty minx.
TwinkieGorilla Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 lol @ people defending any aspect of Oblivion. agreed. *rubs sleep out of eyes* so, hey...wassup guys? wadder we talkin' 'bout now? hopw roewur ne?
Wombat Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I have my likes and dislikes, too, and, to me, Oblivion was a huge disappointment to me since I liked the politically complex Morrowind. The direction is almost totally opposite of what I wanted it to be. However, it sold well especially on Xbox 360. It is very easy for us to tell what likes/dislikes but most likely we are rather ignorable portion of demographic in the major game industry share battle field. Nobody need to defend Oblivion since its strongest defense is the sales figure.
Tagaziel Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I have my likes and dislikes, too, and, to me, Oblivion was a huge disappointment to me since I liked the politically complex Morrowind. The direction is almost totally opposite of what I wanted it to be. However, it sold well especially on Xbox 360. It is very easy for us to tell what likes/dislikes but most likely we are rather ignorable portion of demographic in the major game industry share battle field. Nobody need to defend Oblivion since its strongest defense is the sales figure. A shame, Cyrodil after the Emperor's death would be an even better stage for Political Drama. Barenziah? Wolf Queen? That'd be pre-school compared to post-Septim Empire... HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
TwinkieGorilla Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 However, it sold well especially on Xbox 360. well that's the whole point nowadays ain't it? A shame, Cyrodil after the Emperor's death would be an even better stage for Political Drama. Barenziah? Wolf Queen? That'd be pre-school compared to post-Septim Empire... <3 mikael (even if you are a damn Khajiit-loving furry) hopw roewur ne?
alanschu Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 well that's the whole point nowadays ain't it? It's always been the point IMO. Sure some developers may like a particular style and you can claim (correctly IMO) that some feel that the art component of game design is important. But the bottom line is people will only make and distribute games that they think will actually sell. I'm unaware of many philanthropists in the game development field.
Tagaziel Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 <3 mikael (even if you are a damn Khajiit-loving furry) Hey, don't tell me you never wondered how a female Khajiit would... 'feel'. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
Llyranor Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 You're the only one who ever wondered about that. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
TwinkieGorilla Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) It's always been the point IMO. it's always been the point to sell to the Xbox? i think you missed my joke, mate. Hey, don't tell me you never wondered how a female Khajiit would... 'feel'. ahhg! get away! get away goddammit! Edited April 23, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla hopw roewur ne?
Lady Evenstar Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 My take on the leveling issue in FO3 is that it was the first time Beth used experience-based leveling in their sandbox, and they miscalculated the size of awards. Not really surprising and a mistake I see them unlikely to repeat (although in FO4 there's the chance they'll over-compensate and make them too small ).
Gizmo Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 Sorry, We don't need another hero. "Think about your hero... When you're at ground zero..." http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/2921/sheldonmq5.swf
Ausir Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I think using the NCR-run Hoover Dam from Van Buren would be a good thing, even if not as an actual location (although it is quite close to Vegas), then as a major faction with its stakes in New Vegas. Hoover Dam's government would be a good contrast to a (likely) mob-run Vegas, and it would be interesting to see what the relations between the two towns are. Pillars of Eternity Wiki * The Vault - Fallout Wiki * Wasteland 2 Wiki
IguanaBob Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 My take on the leveling issue in FO3 is that it was the first time Beth used experience-based leveling in their sandbox, and they miscalculated the size of awards. Not really surprising and a mistake I see them unlikely to repeat (although in FO4 there's the chance they'll over-compensate and make them too small ). They have stated in many occasions, that they make most of the adjustments/corrections to their game while playing it and that in the last phase of development, everyone in the dev team plays the game extensively, giving suggestions, pinpointing mistakes. Do you think it
Ausir Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 By the way, I do hope that the Brotherhood of Steel won't appear in the game, or at least won't be part of the main storyline. They've been overused already. Pillars of Eternity Wiki * The Vault - Fallout Wiki * Wasteland 2 Wiki
Aristes Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) I understood the Oblivion bashing before FO3 shipped, but now that FO3 is here, Oblivion seems irrelevant. I enjoyed Oblivion, even disagreeing with some of the design decisions. Yes, I hated the encounter scaling, but I can find some fault with every game I've ever played. So, yeah, that scaling idea was the big fault with Oblivion, but I had a lot of fun playing it and it appears as if I weren't the only one. Getting away from the game that isn't part of the Fallout franchise, I have faith that Obsidian can make improvements on some of the deficiencies in the FO3. Most of those problems aren't tied to the engine at any rate, or not so dramatically that the design team can't modify them. For example, the pacing should be easy to change, although I doubt Obsidian will make a huge alteration to the scheme that worked so well for Bethesda. After all, even accounting for the mods, Fallout 3 received a lot of critical and popular acclaim. I doubt, even giving a nod to the number of end user mods, that most players altered the game other than patching. I know that it was a common enough gripe that Obsidian will probably make some changes, but there's virtually no way for them to include side quests and areas without the chance that the PC will reach the level cap before the end of the game. ...And why shouldn't the PC reach the level cap before the end of the game? Sure, don't max out halfway through the main questline, but maxing out towards the end seems perfectly reasonable. The other deficiencies I see really have nothing to do with the engine. The NPC interaction, dialogue, side quests, and ending had nothing to do with the engine itself. Obsidian has the talent to provide a better experience in these areas, and I expect they will. EDIT: The best thing Obisidian could do, in my opinion, is to remove the exp penalties/rewards based on the difficulty setting. If you play on a harder setting, but you get substantially more exp, then of course you're going to level faster. Edited April 23, 2009 by Aristes
Jaesun Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 By the way, I do hope that the Brotherhood of Steel won't appear in the game, or at least won't be part of the main storyline. They've been overused already. AMEN. Some of my Youtube Classic Roland MT-32 Video Game Music videos | My Music | My Photography
Gorgon Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Nothing quite says 1950 and style like a big band . It's a shame the 50s is just before jazz got progressive and truly interesting Ben Webster was so smooth his sound made him cry on stage. Edited April 23, 2009 by Gorgon Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all.
Gizmo Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I understood the Oblivion bashing before FO3 shipped, but now that FO3 is here, Oblivion seems irrelevant. I enjoyed Oblivion, even disagreeing with some of the design decisions. Yes, I hated the encounter scaling, but I can find some fault with every game I've ever played. So, yeah, that scaling idea was the big fault with Oblivion, but I had a lot of fun playing it and it appears as if I weren't the only one. Once I accepted Oblivion for what it was, I had fun with it. (played to 26th level before my PC got stuck in swim mode, (swimming through the tree covered hills). I'm one of those that played Oblivion in third person unless underground in the dark. As for Fallout 3 and Oblivion... I can't help but see them as two sides of the same coin. Almost as Warhammer & WarHammer 40k. [To me] the games play the same, but for a few trivial changes. I know that some don't see it that way... but they don't often explain why.
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