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There are a couple HUGE improvements though in FO3.

 

1) The level scaling is better integrated into the gameworld. I still don't like it, but its not as poorly implented.

 

2) The god-awful TES learn by doing system is replaced by an XP system. Still not a great system, but so much less wonky and unbalanced then the ES system.

 

3) Exploring actually nets you interesting items rather than just piles of leveled crap loot that filled the world in Oblivion. It makes exploring actually fun.

 

4) NPC faces don't look like their wearing their ass on their shoulders. Although some are still a little wonky looking.

 

I could probably come up with a few more positives as well.

Agreed 100%

 

~Still I wish that they would have found a way to remove the "Obliviousness" and instantaneous mood switches of their the AI scripts. One second they're fighting for their life (or to kill you), and the next second next they're chatting away.. "Sup.. I heard that the raiders are gathering East..." etc...

I saw this [again] for the first time with Butch firing the BB-gun like a madman at the Rad Roaches (

that had just bitten his mother to death

); (and again in Megaton when I tried to

with a flamethrower). Edited by Gizmo
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awhile back i made this post to demonstrate the lackluster implementation of the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system in Fallout 3, using information from the Fallout wiki page, "The Vault". i am hoping that Obsidian can bring us closer, if not completely back to the original implementation of this system...making specific and specialized character creation fun and rewarding again.

 

Strength

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: Hit Points, Melee Damage, and Carry Weight

 

Strength is primarily relevant to two game mechanics: Carry Weight and satisfying the Minimum Strength requirements on weapons. You gain 25 lbs. of carry weight per point of Strength (unless you have the Small Frame trait, in which case it's 15). Also, if you meet the minimum strength requirements of your weapon you do not suffer accuracy penalties with that weapon.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Melee Weapons skill, Carry Weight, melee damage bonus.

 

Perception

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: Sequence, ranged combat distance modifiers and the First Aid, Doctor, Lockpick, Traps and Pilot skills. A player character with higher Perception may notice things that allow them to open up new dialogue options on occasion. It also determines how far away your character starts from hostile critters in random encounters.

 

A high Perception is important for a sharpshooter.

 

In Fallout 2, Perception 7 or above is required for the Chosen One to notice the plug-in slot for the Pipboy on the Vault City computer; plugging it in and choosing the risky sounding Reformat option adds the Vault City Travel Log to the Pipboy. Noticing this slot makes it possible to obtain the Vault City Designer Notes after finishing the game; obtaining the Travel Log is not required for this purpose.

 

Perception is required for many perks, notably PE 6 for Sniper.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies Explosives, Lockpick and Energy Weapons skills

 

Perception also determines when red compass markings appear (which indicate threats)

 

Endurance

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: Hit Points, Poison & Radiation Resistance, Healing Rate, and the additional hit points per level.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Hit Points, Poison Resistance, Radiation Resistance (but not damage resistance) and the Big Guns and Unarmed skills

 

Charisma

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - A high Charisma is important for characters that want to influence people with words. Modifies NPC reactions, and Barter prices. Modifies: Speech and Barter skills

 

In Fallout 2, Charisma also determines the number of base companion slots your character is given. This number is equal to your charisma score divided by two.

 

Predesigned Primary Charisma-based Characters (PPCC) of Fallout are Albert, and in Fallout 2's case, Chitsa.

 

Having a high CH female will change Myron's dialogue trees to a sexual tone.

 

Fallout 3 - A high charisma will generally lower the cost of goods bought, raise prices for goods sold, as well as reducing the cost of sleeping in a rented bed.

 

Intelligence

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: the number of new Skill Points per level, dialogue options, and many skills.

 

One of the unique qualities of Fallout and Fallout 2 was the difference in gameplay, specifically dialogue, if you decided to create a low intelligence character.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Medicine, Repair, and Science skills, as well as the number of new Skill Points per level.

 

Agility

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Action point allocation is based off of the AG stat. Therefore, a character that wishes to keep his enemy on its toes, or claws, needs to have a high agility in order to have multiple combat moves. It is a critical stat for anyone interested in the more mobile and visceral skills such as Unarmed and Small Guns. Other skills rely on it, but these have higher values in AG investment.

 

Modifies: Action Points, Armor Class, and the Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Melee Weapons, Unarmed, Throwing, Lockpick, Steal, Traps and Pilot skills

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Action Points available for V.A.T.S., and the Small Guns and Sneak skills. Your base action point total is equal to 65+twice your agility score.

 

Luck

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - In Fallout, Luck primarily affects your chances with the virtual dice of the game, a high luck means you're more likely to succeed a roll, while the opposite is also true. Luck also affect the chance to score a critical hit on an enemy, with the standard being that your Critical Chance is equal to your luck (keep in mind, standard means without perks, traits, or aimed shots).

 

Fallout 3 - Unlike other SPECIAL scores, luck has no specific skills associated with it. Instead, each point of Luck adds a half point (rounded up) to all skills. Having a high Luck will also improve your critical chance with all weapons.

 

Now really, you don't have to spend a whole lot of time comparing these summaries in order to see how much less involved and rewarding to the game and your character SPECIAL is in Fallout 3. It's not an exaggeration. Sure, SPECIAL does some "stuff" in Fallout 3 but not much more than a few skill point dumps here and there. Pretty unrewarding if you ask me.

 

*discuss*

Edited by TwinkieGorilla
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*rolls eyes* one thread, huh? great. anyway:

 

awhile back i made this post to demonstrate the lackluster implementation of the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system in Fallout 3, using information from the Fallout wiki page, "The Vault". i am hoping that Obsidian can bring us closer, if not completely back to the original implementation of this system...making specific and specialized character creation fun and rewarding again.

 

Strength

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: Hit Points, Melee Damage, and Carry Weight

 

Strength is primarily relevant to two game mechanics: Carry Weight and satisfying the Minimum Strength requirements on weapons. You gain 25 lbs. of carry weight per point of Strength (unless you have the Small Frame trait, in which case it's 15). Also, if you meet the minimum strength requirements of your weapon you do not suffer accuracy penalties with that weapon.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Melee Weapons skill, Carry Weight, melee damage bonus.

 

Perception

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: Sequence, ranged combat distance modifiers and the First Aid, Doctor, Lockpick, Traps and Pilot skills. A player character with higher Perception may notice things that allow them to open up new dialogue options on occasion. It also determines how far away your character starts from hostile critters in random encounters.

 

A high Perception is important for a sharpshooter.

 

In Fallout 2, Perception 7 or above is required for the Chosen One to notice the plug-in slot for the Pipboy on the Vault City computer; plugging it in and choosing the risky sounding Reformat option adds the Vault City Travel Log to the Pipboy. Noticing this slot makes it possible to obtain the Vault City Designer Notes after finishing the game; obtaining the Travel Log is not required for this purpose.

 

Perception is required for many perks, notably PE 6 for Sniper.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies Explosives, Lockpick and Energy Weapons skills

 

Perception also determines when red compass markings appear (which indicate threats)

 

Endurance

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: Hit Points, Poison & Radiation Resistance, Healing Rate, and the additional hit points per level.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Hit Points, Poison Resistance, Radiation Resistance (but not damage resistance) and the Big Guns and Unarmed skills

 

Charisma

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - A high Charisma is important for characters that want to influence people with words. Modifies NPC reactions, and Barter prices. Modifies: Speech and Barter skills

 

In Fallout 2, Charisma also determines the number of base companion slots your character is given. This number is equal to your charisma score divided by two.

 

Predesigned Primary Charisma-based Characters (PPCC) of Fallout are Albert, and in Fallout 2's case, Chitsa.

 

Having a high CH female will change Myron's dialogue trees to a sexual tone.

 

Fallout 3 - A high charisma will generally lower the cost of goods bought, raise prices for goods sold, as well as reducing the cost of sleeping in a rented bed.

 

Intelligence

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Modifies: the number of new Skill Points per level, dialogue options, and many skills.

 

One of the unique qualities of Fallout and Fallout 2 was the difference in gameplay, specifically dialogue, if you decided to create a low intelligence character.

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Medicine, Repair, and Science skills, as well as the number of new Skill Points per level.

 

Agility

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - Action point allocation is based off of the AG stat. Therefore, a character that wishes to keep his enemy on its toes, or claws, needs to have a high agility in order to have multiple combat moves. It is a critical stat for anyone interested in the more mobile and visceral skills such as Unarmed and Small Guns. Other skills rely on it, but these have higher values in AG investment.

 

Modifies: Action Points, Armor Class, and the Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Melee Weapons, Unarmed, Throwing, Lockpick, Steal, Traps and Pilot skills

 

Fallout 3 - Modifies: Action Points available for V.A.T.S., and the Small Guns and Sneak skills. Your base action point total is equal to 65+twice your agility score.

 

Luck

 

Fallouts 1 & 2 - In Fallout, Luck primarily affects your chances with the virtual dice of the game, a high luck means you're more likely to succeed a roll, while the opposite is also true. Luck also affect the chance to score a critical hit on an enemy, with the standard being that your Critical Chance is equal to your luck (keep in mind, standard means without perks, traits, or aimed shots).

 

Fallout 3 - Unlike other SPECIAL scores, luck has no specific skills associated with it. Instead, each point of Luck adds a half point (rounded up) to all skills. Having a high Luck will also improve your critical chance with all weapons.

 

Now really, you don't have to spend a whole lot of time comparing these summaries in order to see how much less involved and rewarding to the game and your character SPECIAL is in Fallout 3. It's not an exaggeration. Sure, SPECIAL does some "stuff" in Fallout 3 but not much more than a few skill point dumps here and there. Pretty unrewarding if you ask me.

 

*discuss*

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Happily I saved what I wrote before I tried to post in a suddenly locked thread:

 

 

 

 

This thred will probably be merged, I'm guessing, but maybe not.

 

1) Strength: I didn't have a problem with how Bethesda did strength. It was the stat they incorporated best into the dialgoue checks and I felt that my stronger characters definitely had a different play feel than my weaker ones.

 

2) Perception: I felt that this was badly under-utilized in FO3. I think the best and most use interesting use of this stat is to allow the pc to gain addtional information about items and the world and npcs. This was a done a little in FO1 and 2 but even there not very much. THis could be a really important stat to a diplomatic or stealth character if implemented well.

 

3) Endurance: My high endurance characters played differently from low endurance characters at low levels, but the difference became less prononuced later.

 

4) Charisma: Was this one any use in FO3 other than cheaper prices? If so I didn't notice. If a crpg is going to have a strong social/dialogue element charisma should be an important part of that. Bethesda isn't too big on that part of a crpg so I imagine they didn't bother too much with this one.

 

5) Agility: I never had a character with more than 4 agility and I never noticed any problems. Interesting how it went from being THE stat of FO1 and 2 to pretty much a nothing stat if you never used VATS. I never used VATS.

 

6) INtelligence: Still somewhat important in FO3 for skill points, but it wasn't like skill points were really a valuable resource. A low int character had no real difference in play through from a high int char

 

7) Luck: I have never liked the way Beth handles luck. They just blend it into the other skills for the most part. I would prefer luck be a stat that has an effect on the game completely outside your pc's normal skills.

 

 

I think a lot could be done by Obsidian to make your stat choices a lot more important to character creation.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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aside from the physical changes, the biggest part of what bothered me was the lack of difference to your character's personality (i.e. speech checks) that SPECIAL and the skills offered. i mean, we went from a scientific explanation of irrigating crops to this:

 

I fight the good fight on galaxy news radio with my voice.

 

[intelligence] so you fight the good fight with your voice?

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Please note that while frank and harsh discussions about anything, including Obsidian itself, is not a problem, profane and/or excessive bashing of any game or company will incur my terrible wrath.

 

Yes, terrible. Terrible things will happen. Groar.

 

Gonna repost this for anyone who missed it. We've got a pretty even-tempered mod team here, and we're happy to let this thread be your sandbox to play around in, but try to keep the discussion focused on Fallout, as opposed to old flamewars or why you got banned from another messageboard. All of our new posters have a clean slate as far as we're concerned, but please endeavour to keep it that way. :) It's ok to disagree and be passionate, so long as everything is kept civil.

 

And try to keep everything in this thread. I'm as big a fan of that as some of you probably are, but unfortunately that's the way it is going to be. There is a Fallout Spoilers thread in the Spoilers sub-forum if you want to discuss plot points.

Matthew Rorie
 

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I really would like to have a poll to see how many folks liked Fallout 3. When it was finally released, the threads on these forums were overwhelmingly positive. Even quite a few skeptics were happy with the end result. It just amazes me how quickly the negative train pulled back into the station, is all.

 

 

Well, it's definitely a huge improvement over Oblivion and I'm enjoying it well enough. The vampire quest was great fun, for example. However, it still has huge issues that go a long way to mar my compliments of the game. The combat, the rules system and the shoddy writing really take a lot from the game's quality. And as I'm playing it on the PC, the GUI is really awful and it's shocking that Bethesda pulled the same stuff with the GUI that they did with Oblivion.

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And try to keep everything in this thread. I'm as big a fan of that as some of you probably are, but unfortunately that's the way it is going to be. There is a Fallout Spoilers thread in the Spoilers sub-forum if you want to discuss plot points.

 

yer. no problem here, i didn't realize it had to be that way.

 

No worries, just clearing it up.

Matthew Rorie
 

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I really would like to have a poll to see how many folks liked Fallout 3. When it was finally released, the threads on these forums were overwhelmingly positive. Even quite a few skeptics were happy with the end result. It just amazes me how quickly the negative train pulled back into the station, is all.

 

 

Well, it's definitely a huge improvement over Oblivion and I'm enjoying it well enough. The vampire quest was great fun, for example. However, it still has huge issues that go a long way to mar my compliments of the game. The combat, the rules system and the shoddy writing really take a lot from the game's quality. And as I'm playing it on the PC, the GUI is really awful and it's shocking that Bethesda pulled the same stuff with the GUI that they did with Oblivion.

 

I read an interview with Todd Howard in which he was asked (a year after Oblivion was released, I believe) if he could have implemented one of the users modifications what would it be. He said (get this) the GUI improvement mod. Why oh why did he repeat if for Fallout 3, if he singled it out as the biggest flaw that was fixed by the community? Strange man.

 

 

I would also like to say that I think Fallout 3 address some technical/gameplay faults that Oblivion had, but the style is almost the same. I liked Oblivion despite the gameplay flaws, and thanks to the fantastic community, most of the flaws were removed. As a result Oblivion (with mods) is one of the best games I've played, without mods it's pretty good.

Edited by FabMan_UK
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aside from the physical changes, the biggest part of what bothered me was the lack of difference to your character's personality (i.e. speech checks) that SPECIAL and the skills offered. i mean, we went from a scientific explanation of irrigating crops to this:

 

I fight the good fight on galaxy news radio with my voice.

 

[intelligence] so you fight the good fight with your voice?

 

 

If FO is going to stay as what is essentially a realtime FPS format, I'd love to see some of the stats manifest themselves in the realtime world.

 

For example, a higher agility means you can run or turn faster. A high perception means certain objects are visible. A high str adds to your hitpoints but slows you down.

 

Luck and perception especially could really be used to provide different play experiences for different character builds.

 

Luck could affect how quickly a raider's morale fails or the chance of a critical failure in combat for an opponent. Lots of things.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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Gizmo and CrashGirl, your assessments of Oblivion seemed pretty good to me. However I prefer the 'learn by doing method' rather than XP points. Oblivion could have improved upon how it was implemented, but that was more of balancing which mods have done. I guess that Fallout:NV will stick to XP, which is fine for more. But most RPG's do that and I kinda like changes.

Edited by FabMan_UK
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Gizmo and CrashGirl, your assessments of Oblivion seemed pretty good to me. However I prefer the 'learn by doing method' rather than XP points. Oblivion could have improved upon how it was implemented, but that was more of balancing which mods have done. I guess that Fallout:NV will stick to XP, which is fine for more. But most RPG's do that and I kinda like changes.

I actually don't mind the "learn by doing" method, but it leads to bunny-hopping your way through the game.

 

It would have been cool if they had implemented a random delay before another use of the same skill was counted.

 

You know, I actually parked my character near the Arena fighters sparring outside, because I wondered if [like Fallout], my character could learn by watching.

 

A somehow balanced hybrid of "Use plus XP" might be interesting, if it could be made to work smoothly.

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Gizmo and CrashGirl, your assessments of Oblivion seemed pretty good to me. However I prefer the 'learn by doing method' rather than XP points. Oblivion could have improved upon how it was implemented, but that was more of balancing which mods have done. I guess that Fallout:NV will stick to XP, which is fine for more. But most RPG's do that and I kinda like changes.

 

 

I do like the idea of learn by doing systems. They're just so hard to balance in reality that they never seem to work very well. They tend to create and encourage exploits as well as lead to the high-level-characters-that-are-all-exactly-the-same-problem.

 

I should also point out that I think the modding community around Oblivion (and also Morrowind) did a great job. Oblivion with mods is a far more playable game than without. My criticisms of Oblivion are aimed strictly at the as-shipped vanilla game. I think its kind of poor form that fans had to fix up a game that developers were paid a lot of money to create.

 

But that is neither here nor there at this point. :)

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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A somehow balanced hybrid of "Use plus XP" might be interesting, if it could be made to work smoothly.

 

 

Wizardry used some of that methodology. It worked pretty well.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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I think its kind of poor form that fans had to fix up a game that developers were paid a lot of money to create.

 

 

Heh, isnt that par for the course now? NWN, NWN2, Oblivion, FO3, Gothis, etc, etc.... Its almost a business model now, lol. Just chug it out the door and let the customers fix it. The part that totally blew my mind was when somehow the fixes in NWN never made it over to NWN2 because they got an "early build". If only they would have had the ability to go to the vault and download stuff. :)

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I really would like to have a poll to see how many folks liked Fallout 3. When it was finally released, the threads on these forums were overwhelmingly positive. Even quite a few skeptics were happy with the end result. It just amazes me how quickly the negative train pulled back into the station, is all.

 

I liked Fallout 3 and am not sure that Obsidian will make a better game.

 

As for the turn around, it's what I expected. It's not enough that Bethesda provide a good game that many people here liked (though I've noticed that we've gone back to pretending that FO3 was enjoyed by 'the masses' and Obsidian posters are not 'the masses'). Bethesda only wins if they start making games in the model that some players prefer above all else and consider 'true rpgs.'

 

If FO is going to stay as what is essentially a realtime FPS format, I'd love to see some of the stats manifest themselves in the realtime world.

 

For example, a higher agility means you can run or turn faster. A high perception means certain objects are visible. A high str adds to your hitpoints but slows you down.

 

Luck and perception especially could really be used to provide different play experiences for different character builds.

 

Luck could affect how quickly a raider's morale fails or the chance of a critical failure in combat for an opponent. Lots of things.

 

I like the perception idea. I remember in Vampire: Bloodlines, if your awareness was high enough, certain objects of interest would glow.

 

I don't think being stronger slows you down.

 

So is this going to be the only discussion area for the game on the site, or is a proper forum in the works?

 

This will be the only area. If a forum is created, it will be on the Bethesda site.

Edited by Maria Caliban

"When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.

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Bethesda only wins if they start making games in the model that some players prefer above all else and consider 'true rpgs.'

 

nonsense.

 

they win with the Fallout crowd if they start paying closer attention to the original recipe. hire better writers, forget the crappy voice-acting, give meaningful consequences or rewards to your choices, ditch VATS/fix combat and fix SPECIAL. i can guarantee you that if these things were fixed you'd have at least half the people at the fansites singing a different tune. as of right now it could barely be called an cRPG. it's more like some other weird LARPy kind of hybrid. sure, it does a good job making you think your choices are going to mean something but they never do. as Gizmo said earlier, all characters everywhere are Oblivio(us) to any thing that happens.

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they win with the Fallout crowd if they start paying closer attention to the original recipe. hire better writers, forget the crappy voice-acting, give meaningful consequences or rewards to your choices, ditch VATS/fix combat and fix SPECIAL. i can guarantee you that if these things were fixed you'd have at least half the people at the fansites singing a different tune. as of right now it could barely be called an cRPG. it's more like some other weird LARPy kind of hybrid. sure, it does a good job making you think your choices are going to mean something but they never do. as Gizmo said earlier, all characters everywhere are Oblivio(us) to any thing that happens.

 

This. Also with a fixed SPECIAL/Skill system one could almost have the same experience in gameplay (replayability) as Fo/Fo2.

 

I'd also like to see the areas with more believability. In f0/F02 you saw farms everywhere and such.... in Fo3 what do these people live off of? :)

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I really would like to have a poll to see how many folks liked Fallout 3. When it was finally released, the threads on these forums were overwhelmingly positive. Even quite a few skeptics were happy with the end result. It just amazes me how quickly the negative train pulled back into the station, is all.

 

I liked Fallout 3 and am not sure that Obsidian will make a better game.

 

As for the turn around, it's what I expected. It's not enough that Bethesda provide a good game that many people here liked (though I've noticed that we've gone back to pretending that FO3 was enjoyed by 'the masses' and Obsidian posters are not 'the masses'). Bethesda only wins if they start making games in the model that some players prefer above all else and consider 'true rpgs.'

 

They'd move to my good book if they would learn how to write and animate things.

 

And if they spent the money they used on short lived celebrity VA on veteran VAs that know how their craft instead.

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I very highly doubt they can scrap VATS altogether and have good combat. Combat without VATS was just like ranged Oblivion combat, which is to say it was completely dull, because of animation but also because characters had so much health and weapons did so little damage. Combat was attrition.

 

Tweak, don't dump.

Edited by Pop
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I think its kind of poor form that fans had to fix up a game that developers were paid a lot of money to create.

 

 

Heh, isnt that par for the course now? NWN, NWN2, Oblivion, FO3, Gothis, etc, etc.... Its almost a business model now, lol. Just chug it out the door and let the customers fix it.

 

And Vampire: Bloodlines, Temple of Elemental Evil, FO2, Arcanum... :)

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