Dutch youths convicted of virtual theft

[Gfted1]

Oct 21, 2:53 PM (ET)

 

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - A Dutch court has convicted two youths of theft for stealing virtual items in a computer game and sentenced them to community service.

 

Only a handful of such cases have been heard in the world, and they have reached varying conclusions about the legal status of "virtual goods."

 

The Leeuwarden District Court says the culprits, 15 and 14 years old, coerced a 13-year-old boy into transferring a "virtual amulet and a virtual mask" from the online adventure game RuneScape to their game accounts.

 

"These virtual goods are goods (under Dutch law), so this is theft," the court said Tuesday in a summary of its ruling.

 

Identities of the minors were not released.

 

The 15-year-old was sentenced to 200 hours service, and the 14-year-old to 160 hours.

 

Interesting. Im not sure where I stand on virtual property and whether it can be "stolen". Thoughts?

[Aristes]

Wow. That's interesting. More and more, virtual reality is taking the place of reality. That's interesting, but also disturbing. Can they try these folks in virtual court?

[crakkie]

Can virtual people be virtually murdered?

[jaguars4ever]

Only if they had the virtual intent.

[neckthrough]

Regardless of whether virtual crimes are tried in a virtual court or a real one, I do think the punishment should be limited to within the virtual world. Stole somebody's virtual property? You'll lose all your gold and your high-level character (or perhaps all your characters) has to spend 6 months in a virtual jail cell (I'm pretty sure that'll drive an MMO addict nuts).

[Gorth]

If I stole all your virtual money on your bank account, I am not sure you would settle for a bit of virtual spanking, I think you would rather see me behind bars

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

The punishment should be virtual.

[Gorgon]

This whole virtual property deal is nonsense. The MMO handlers can take it away at a whim, so how can you own anything.

[Hurlshort]

This whole virtual property deal is nonsense. The MMO handlers can take it away at a whim, so how can you own anything.

 

Technically most governments can take away property as well, so how can you own anything in reality?

[Nick_i_am]

The people who run MMOs arn't elected.

[Hurlshort]

The people who run MMOs arn't elected.

 

What? Not every government is elected either.

 

And really, you are giving the MMO developers your support by simply subscribing to the game. Heck, I don't remember ever having a choice about paying taxes. I'm sure we can go on and on about the diffrences and similiarities of a virual and real world.

 

I don't actually care, really, I was just playing a bit of devil's advocate for Gorgon's post. I think it's silly to get attached to virtual property and even sillier to have laws about it. But there is a real world economy at work in these virtual worlds. People pay real money for fake property, so it's not surprising to see real laws being enforced.

 

I'd much rather people use common sense and figure out that paying for virtual merchandise is silly and really defeats the purpose of playing the game in the first place. If you don't think the game is rewarding enough based on your own gameplay ability, then don't play it.

[Tigranes]

Of course it's a form of property, there is a socially accepted value to these things. So of course it's theft, and of course it's punishable. Very basic stuff. That's a pretty high number of community hours, but I gather that it took into account physical / 'real-life' coercion and abuse as well.

[Maria Caliban]

Interesting. Im not sure where I stand on virtual property and whether it can be "stolen". Thoughts?

 

That would be crazy. That would be like people taking little pieces of paper and pretending they were worth gold, or having an electronic version of that paper which represents that gold.

 

This doesn

Edited October 22, 2008 by Maria Caliban

[Mamoulian War]

Regardless of whether virtual crimes are tried in a virtual court or a real one, I do think the punishment should be limited to within the virtual world. Stole somebody's virtual property? You'll lose all your gold and your high-level character (or perhaps all your characters) has to spend 6 months in a virtual jail cell (I'm pretty sure that'll drive an MMO addict nuts).

 

 

You would change your mind about virtual punishment, if you have put 6 or more month into your character and some jerk would log onto your account and transfered your character to his account...

 

If every single hour i spent with my character last four years cost 1 Euro, i would have lost 4512 Euro if that would happen to me... Tbh i would like to see that person rot in prison somewhere in Uzbekistan for that...

Edited October 22, 2008 by Mamoulian War

[Musopticon?]

Well, to be honest, this was Runescape. The virtual effort needed for success pales in comparison to any of the big names, like EQ2 and WoW.

 

I call harsh. Seriously, they weren't even 16, what's wrong with this particular judge?

Edited October 22, 2008 by Musopticon?

[Kaftan Barlast]

This is just plain stupid, should we charge people with assault for TK'ing aswell?

 

 

According to a MMO playing friend of mine, coercing other players to give up gold and whatnot is a legit gameplay feature. Thats apparently his guilds main cource of income in EvE online; they jump people and threaten to PvP kill them if they dont pay up. I asume that would beclassified as armed robbery in Holland.

[Gorgon]

This whole virtual property deal is nonsense. The MMO handlers can take it away at a whim, so how can you own anything.

 

Technically most governments can take away property as well, so how can you own anything in reality?

Protection of property is a basic cornerstone of modern democracies. Government can requisition land, that is force you to sell, but they sure as hell can't confiscate your belongings without criminal procedures. The MMO handlers are the real owners of the virtual item market. They control every facet except the actual transaction, assuming that selling loot for real currency is even allowed.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Gorgon

[Magister Lajciak]

That's very... interesting. It seems that legal systems are gradually being extended to virtual worlds.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I talked to my friend again and he claims all MMO's has clauses in the eula that states that all the player actually owns is the physical disc and box, everything else, especially ingame content belongs to the publisher. So this case should never have made it to court, unless they somehow managed to prova that the kids hadnt signed the eula.

[Magister Lajciak]

In many jurisdictions, EULAs are not legally binding.

[Blarghagh]

Well, to be honest, this was Runescape. The virtual effort needed for success pales in comparison to any of the big names, like EQ2 and WoW.

 

I call harsh. Seriously, they weren't even 16, what's wrong with this particular judge?

 

See, the part of this crap that you guys are all missing (that I haven't, seeing as I live in Holland where this has gotten quite a bit of coverage) is that these kids forced the other kid to come home with them, type in his personal information and send it over under threat of violence. They may have gotten it on a bogus charge, but I can't say I wish they hadn't been charged.

[Tigranes]

Yep. If it was a purely virtual robbery (I am higher level, will kick ur virtual arse if you don't pay), then it'd just be part of a game.

 

The stuff about EULA is nonsense, there is a socially accepted value in virtual chars and goods, no matter what any non-legal document says.

[Aristes]

Well, to be honest, this was Runescape. The virtual effort needed for success pales in comparison to any of the big names, like EQ2 and WoW.

 

I call harsh. Seriously, they weren't even 16, what's wrong with this particular judge?

 

See, the part of this crap that you guys are all missing (that I haven't, seeing as I live in Holland where this has gotten quite a bit of coverage) is that these kids forced the other kid to come home with them, type in his personal information and send it over under threat of violence. They may have gotten it on a bogus charge, but I can't say I wish they hadn't been charged.

 

Well, good Lord! That's a game changer. If they physically forced the kid to do something, then they got what they deserved. In my opinion, public service is not an excessive punishment anyhow. I've done a lot of public service as a volunteer that some folks have been forced to do as punishment. Give me a break. If performing physical labor makes for punishment, then our whole lives are punishment. A couple of punks losing some hours being forced to help out the community by picking up trash or the like is not an outrage.

 

Now, if it were truly virtual, as in the entirity of the crime took place online, then I would certainly be a bit more sceptical.

[Calax]

This is just plain stupid, should we charge people with assault for TK'ing aswell?

 

 

According to a MMO playing friend of mine, coercing other players to give up gold and whatnot is a legit gameplay feature. Thats apparently his guilds main cource of income in EvE online; they jump people and threaten to PvP kill them if they dont pay up. I asume that would beclassified as armed robbery in Holland.

Thats EvE online. that's got its own freaking Economists working on it and it's a space sim. technically what they are doing is being hitech highway men... or pirates... space pirates with android monkies.

[Gfted1]

More virtual craziness:

 

Online divorcee jailed after killing virtual hubby

 

Oct 23, 11:30 AM (ET)

 

By MARI YAMAGUCHI

 

TOKYO (AP) - A 43-year-old Japanese piano teacher's sudden divorce from her online husband in a virtual game world made her so angry that she logged on and killed his digital persona, police said Thursday.

 

The woman, who has been jailed on suspicion of illegally accessing a computer and manipulating electronic data, used his identification and password to log onto popular interactive game "Maple Story" to carry out the virtual murder in mid-May, a police official in northern Sapporo City said on condition of anonymity, citing department policy.

 

"I was suddenly divorced, without a word of warning. That made me so angry," the official quoted her as telling investigators and admitting the allegations.

 

The woman had not plotted any revenge in the real world, the official said.

 

She has not yet been formally charged, but if convicted could face a prison term of up to five years or a fine up to $5,000.

 

As in "Second Life" in the U.S., players in "Maple Story" raise and manipulate digital images called "avatars" that represent themselves, while engaging in relationships, social activities and fighting against monsters and other obstacles.

 

The woman used login information she got from the 33-year-old office worker when their characters were happily married, and killed the character. The man complained to police when he discovered that his beloved online avatar was dead.

 

The woman was arrested Wednesday and was taken across the country, traveling 620 miles from her home in southern Miyazaki to be detained in Sappporo, where the man lives, the official said.

 

The police official said he did not know if she was married in the real world.

 

In recent years, virtual lives have had consequences in the real world. In August, a woman was charged in Delaware with plotting the real-life abduction of a boyfriend she met through "Second Life."

 

In Tokyo, police arrested a 16-year-old boy on charges of swindling virtual currency worth $360,000 in an interactive role playing game by manipulating another player's portfolio using a stolen ID and password.

 

Virtual games are popular in Japan, and "Second Life" has drawn a fair number of Japanese participants. They rank third by nationality among users, after Americans and Brazilians.