New Dragon Age discussion thread

[mkreku]

There won't be any orcs in Risen

Edited August 27, 2008 by mkreku

[Gromnir]

am not bothered that instead of breaking new ground da is actually more lotr than most o' the lotr knock offs. few lotr knock-offs has so boldly embraced the core christian themes o' lotr. few contemporary fantasy authors has had the courage to try and sell their religion along with their fantasy. newc mentions pullman, and perhaps if the blight becomes sympathetic in da then clearly we gots a dark materials kinda pov. that being said, pullman didn't use the lotr conventions the way that da appears to be.

 

btw, am optimistic about da overall... am simply a little surprised that after all the talk o' doing different, gaider is doing even more lotr than most. just look at this thread. if something looks like an orc and fufills same basic function as orcs, then author is gonna have to work that much harder to distinguish from orc... and he won't have a chance to editorialize to achieve distance neither; gaider is gonna have to makes players see different from orcs solely with material from game and he is already working from a self created disadvantage 'cause clearly large numbers o' people is identifying da with lotr.

 

now, is possible that gaider is purpose using the tolkien stuff to actually makes people reevaluate. sometimes you can be using the conventions to actually makes people sees same 'ole, same 'ole in a whole new way. force an epiphany 'pon a person? is a tough grind and takes some skill to manage.

 

oh, and Gromnir is NOT one o' the people that screamed "lotr clone!" after seeing initial trailers. (look above in thread... we expressed optimism for da, but noted that we is cynical 'bout origins, "dark but not too dark" and romances... slam the setting as tolkienesque not occur to us until gaiders pov gots added to the thread.) thought that such comparisons were kinda unfair. that being said, gaider's explanation posted above sounds very tolkienesque. am simply surprised that gaider would make such obvious parallels to lotr given all the earlier talk by developers 'bout doing different.

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, as we said already it ain't 'bout the general stuff so much as it is 'bout actual implementation. is nothing wrong with borrowing from tolkien... as long as you does better. am simply surprised that gaider would go this route considering just how much he claimed to wanna distance himself from the conventions.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Moatilliatta]

@Xard and somewhat Pidesco

TOEE and bloodlines. What? Bloodlines has crappy combat? Try saying that while playing NWN2, KOTOR2, Mass Effect or Jade Empire.

 

Arcanum had incredibly bad combat but it wasn't much worse than the stuff that I had to go through in NWN2 which is the same stuff that led to me not being able to complete either of those games out of sheer boredom.

 

@Tigranes

I'm conflating peoples opinions on purpose since I'm not going to respond to every single issue that people have with a single trailer that was near universally derided.

The purpose of my post was to try and get people to move past that initial trailer and actually interest themselves for all the actually pomising things about this game instead of laming themselves on a single trailer where they happen to take issue with it being generally dark-ish (not som much dark but just darker) fantasy instead of Morrowind, Arcanum, Moor****, Rice, Diablo, Sandman, Ravenloft or whatever else these people find innovative or interesting enough for them to interest themselves in.

 

All I'm asking is that people remember that it is Bioware and remember that Bioware is generic (Bioware comes in all shapes and sizes so long as it is generic) Bioware lives and breathe the stuff that everybody knows and then they move out from there.

 

You've made me a bit interested though, what was it that you believed DA was before the trailer and how did it necesarily conflict with what was in the trailer?

[Wrath of Dagon]

DA combat is rules based, not action, that's well established.

[Gorth]

Someone is on crack. Bloodlines has crappy combat? You have a gun, you aim and fire. You have a melee weapon, you slice and dice or blungeon them to death. What is so hard about that?

Bite them!

 

No opinion on DA yet. Haven't played anything Bioware since Kotor1.

[Dark_Raven]

Someone is on crack. Bloodlines has crappy combat? You have a gun, you aim and fire. You have a melee weapon, you slice and dice or blungeon them to death. What is so hard about that?

Bite them!

 

No opinion on DA yet. Haven't played anything Bioware since Kotor1.

I bite them alright.

[Gromnir]

All I'm asking is that people remember that it is Bioware and remember that Bioware is generic (Bioware comes in all shapes and sizes so long as it is generic) Bioware lives and breathe the stuff that everybody knows and then they move out from there.

 

preaching to the choir. for years Gromnir has noted that bioware builds games for the mythical Average Gamer. broad appeal doesn't = bad, but it makes tough to be exceptional. if your goal is to meet the expectations of the largest number o' potential consumers, is gonna be unlikely that you exceed the expectations of anybody. "dark, but not too dark." is illustrative o' the current biowarian design philosophy. biowarians wanna make a dark and gritty game, but at same time they not wanna lose customers who likes pleasant. so how dark does you think they is gonna really make da? "dark, but not too dark." can pretty much apply the above philosophy to every design choice. make combat tough, but not too tough. make character generation choices deep, but not too deep. make da a low magic setting, but not too low.

 

*shrug*

 

ps:t failed, in part, 'cause it were too unfamiliar and too unique for the Average Gamer. where were the elves and the dwarves? where was the conventions? am not surprised that biowarians is gonna avoid such a similar mistake with da. nevertheless, when we see dave gaider trying to convince self/others that his setting is anything other than tolkienesqe, Gromnir cannot help but wonder if gaider actually believes what he is saying. self-delusion can be a powerful force.

 

...

 

game can still be dark and gritty... am simply surprised that gaider honestly thought that his description o' setting would distance da from lotr.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

...

Edited August 28, 2008 by Gfted1

[J.E. Sawyer]

Combat discussion split off into its own thread because that's how I roll.

[Rylock]

game can still be dark and gritty... am simply surprised that gaider honestly thought that his description o' setting would distance da from lotr.

I'm curious as to why you think I'm trying to "distance" Dragon Age from LotR. Saying that Dragon Age looks like Lord of the Rings is not necessarily a bad thing-- on the surface any fantasy setting that uses the fantasy tropes such as elves and dwarves and the "evil horde" is going to immediately draw such comparisons, especially now when the movies are still very fresh in peoples' heads.

 

In a way, sure, we are partly responsible for that. We used the archetypes and we will have to rest easy with the fact that people are going to draw such superficial comparisons based on the small amount of the game they've seen. All I've been trying to explain is that there is, indeed, more going on beneath the surface. People can and will jaw all they want about how the so-called "Helm's Deep" battle in the trailer must be the entirety of the plot (because it must be, right?) and how it bores their jaded sensibilities, and so be it, but I'm confident in time that people will see that there's more to Dragon Age than they might assume.

 

That's ignoring those who figure they've got Bioware all figured out already, of course, them being such smart cookies.

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware Corp.

[Rylock]

Okay, so they have a different backstory than orcs.

 

But why the hell do they have to look like Orcs? Think of a new concept, damnit.

They look the way they do because that is how the artist's wished to portray them-- not much more that can be said on that point. I mean, whatever look they finally settled on could be criticized for any number of reasons that basically boil down to "I don't like it." I'm sorry that you don't, but I don't really get the whole "they look like orcs" thing, either. I don't think they do.

 

Certainly they serve the function of an orc, which is to say they form the "evil horde". And in that respect you might consider them to be one and the same thing, and that's fine. They are not, however, an evil race that is out to conquer -- they are out to consume, to destroy. There is no reasoning with a horde of locusts, and that is a crucial point.

 

They are also not the entirety of the plot in Dragon Age. There is much more going on than simply the existance of the Blight.

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware corp.

[newc0253]

so is it true that DA will be dark but not too dark?

 

or just dark enough?

Edited August 28, 2008 by newc0253

[kirottu]

OMG HIHI!! ASL?

[Gromnir]

"people can and will jaw all they want about how the so-called "Helm's Deep" battle in the trailer"

 

honestly have never actually watched the trailer. our only reason for linking da to lotr were based on the quotes attributed to you earlier in the thread.

 

and as to why we thinks you were trying to distance da from lotr... is 'cause you and the other da developers has been saying for a couple o' years now that you were not gonna just do same old fantasy world with same old conventions (and tolkien's name has come up once or twice in those threads.) also,

 

"The dark spawn are sort of the... you look at them and think they’re sort of like Lord of the Rings rocs, right? And in that respect they are sort of the evil horde. The idea is there is so much more behind it."

 

sounds like you were responding to criticism that orcs=blight... or whatever. the thing that confused Gromnir is that your explanation made sound more orc-like than we had previously considered. orcs=fallen elves/angels. they is, first and foremost, destroyers of beauty who lay waste to all in their path. sauron wants to conquer, but orcs...

 

again, Gromnir never made a genuine connection 'tween orcs and blight until we saw your quoted material in this thread. go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2008 by Gromnir

[Rylock]

so is it true that DA will be dark but not too dark?

 

or just dark enough?

I'm sure you are smart enough to realize that the whole "how dark is it?" question rests entirely on what someone considers to be "dark". There are whole gradients of relative darkness between such "dark and gritty" settings as the Witcher, Warhammer and George R.R. Martin's world... so it's simply not an easy question to answer without giving a whole list of "we do this, but not that"... something we're just not willing to do, yet. All I can really say at this point is that we're aiming for a more mature storyline and setting with a lot of violence. If people want to leap to conclusions such as "oh my god, you're saying there's baby rape?!" -- well, that just complicates things.

 

But, no, we're not "innovating" darkness as a theme. It's been done, as recently as the Witcher. All we have for comparison, really, is our earlier fantasy titles-- which is really what people know us for best, no?

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware corp.

[Pidesco]

All we have for comparison, really, is our earlier fantasy titles-- which is really what people know us for best, no?

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware corp.

 

Speaking of which, how different will Dragon Age be from your last few titles? Because repetitiveness in Bioware's games has really set in for me.

[Gromnir]

"I'm sure you are smart enough to realize that the whole "how dark is it?" question rests entirely on what someone considers to be "dark"."

 

am gonna agree that there is no satisfactory way to address such a question... other than with specific examples, and that ain't gonna happen.

 

btw, we wouldn't be too confident that fans will see more in da plot than tolkien. if you give 'em conventions, people will fill in blanks, and not necessarily with material you provided. recall irenicus? he becomes the stereotypical evil-wizard-mad-with/for-power in spite of actual game development.

 

if in da you give people orcs...

 

throw in a twist ain't gonna be enough to disabuse people o' notion that your mythology ain't simply tolkien with a twist.

 

'course maybe you owe peter jackson a debt. your blight explanation is straight out of tolkien's original mythology. keep in mind that lotr were mythology more than it were meant to be lit... and a catholic mythology at that. the highhanded religious themes that were so important and integral to tolkien were far less important to peter jackson. your addition of a religious component to the basic tolkien shtick actually ain't gonna seem tolkienesque to most of your audience who identify lotr with elijah wood and ian mckellen.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rylock]

Speaking of which, how different will Dragon Age be from your last few titles? Because repetitiveness in Bioware's games has really set in for me.

That really depends on what you're asking.

 

"Is it set in a futuristic science-fiction univers? Or a pseudo-Asian fantasy world?" -- Then no.

 

"Is it an Action/RPG hybrid like Jade Empire or Mass Effect?" -- Then no. DA is just an RPG, focusing on party-based tactics and RTwP as opposed to the action-based "twitch" mechanics.

 

"Does it focus on cinematic storytelling and cutscenes to the extent that Jade Empire and Mass Effect did?" -- we use some of the cinematic acting techniques we've developed in those games, sure, but we go back to the more traditional style of dialogue (exact player responses to choose from, no player VO)and rely less on cutscenes overall (though we do have plenty). DA focuses more on character customization and having the choices you made at character creation be recognized throughout the game.

 

"Is it a short game? Because I like really, really long games." -- That depends on your definition of "short", as I've said in interviews in terms of the amount of content in DA it's the biggest game we've attempted since BG2. Just how long that ends up being is something we'll better estimate once we get closer to ship.

 

"Will it continue to offend my delicately jaded palette like your most last few titles?" -- Of that I have no idea.

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware Corp.

[Rylock]

btw, we wouldn't be too confident that fans will see more in da plot than tolkien. if you give 'em conventions, people will fill in blanks, and not necessarily with material you provided. recall irenicus? he becomes the stereotypical evil-wizard-mad-with/for-power in spite of actual game development.

 

if in da you give people orcs...

 

throw in a twist ain't gonna be enough to disabuse people o' notion that your mythology ain't simply tolkien with a twist.

 

'course maybe you owe peter jackson a debt. your blight explanation is straight out of tolkien's original mythology. keep in mind that lotr were mythology more than it were meant to be lit... and a catholic mythology at that. the highhanded religious themes that were so important and integral to tolkien were far less important to peter jackson. your addition of a religious component to the basic tolkien shtick actually ain't gonna seem tolkienesque to most of your audience who identify lotr with elijah wood and ian mckellen.

Fair enough. "Tolkien with a twist" isn't exactly a terrible place to be, all things considered.

 

As for my Blight explanation being "straight out" of Tokien's mythology -- I assume what you're referring to comes from the Silmarillion? I've never read it, myself, and was going more for a Paradise Lost feel, so it certainly wasn't intentional. Certainly the aspects of the darkspawn that make them what they are will affect the game as more than a footnote of the setting.

 

Even so, people are going to be able to draw comparisons to all sorts of previous fantasy, most of them by accident. I'll assume that most of those comparisons won't be as esoteric as the Silmarillion, either.

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware corp.

[Pidesco]

How about this: Will an ancient, forgotten group of very powerful beings be a main part of Dragon Age's plot?

[Rylock]

How about this: Will an ancient, forgotten group of very powerful beings be a main part of Dragon Age's plot?

Sure (other than the forgotten part).

 

But then if I were to simplify you in a similar manner -- you're just a person. How boringly repetitive is that?

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware corp.

[newc0253]

so, assuming that there's quite a substantial backstory to the DA setting, how much are folk gonna be able to know about Ferelden before playing DA?

 

Mass Effect has its novelizations, what will DA have?

[Rylock]

so, assuming that there's quite a substantial backstory to the DA setting, how much are folk gonna be able to know about Ferelden before playing DA?

Before playing? I assume that information on the setting and the DA system will roll out with greater frequency as we get closer to the actual ship date. I think that ideally they'd like to put the information out there -- it's spoiler-free and yet builds up interest (from some, anyhow).

 

We're still a ways from 1st quarter 2009, remember. We're not kicking into the high gear just yet.

Mass Effect has its novelizations, what will DA have?

Mass Effect has a novel, yes. Whether DA has a plan for similar in the works hasn't been announced yet.

 

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware corp.

[Gromnir]

*shrug*

 

as Gromnir already stated earlier in the thread, whether you borrow conventions from tolkien or pullman not matter to us so much as how you implement.

 

"Will it continue to offend my delicately jaded palette like your most last few titles?"

 

 

hmm. once a fortnight or so, Gromnir embraces more... common diversions. takes the 1955 recording of Gould's Goldberg Variations off the phonograph, and set aside that first edition Pale Fire. put a cork in the 1982 Chateu Le fiet Rothschild and forgo the pheasant... Gromnir's palette, while discriminating as ever, is also finding enjoyment in the plebeian fare currently being served up by bioware. we actually enjoyed much o' mass effect... though am still uncertain how the dialogue wheel were innovative.

 

in any event, am looking forward to da... though am as dubious as ever 'bout those seemingly diminishing origins.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2008 by Gromnir

[Deadly_Nightshade]

David Gaider

Lead Writer - Dragon Age

Bioware Corp.

 

Not to say that you are lying about your identity, but could you somehow prove that you indeed who you claim to be?