NWN2 XP2 Storm of Zehir Wishlist

[Morgoth]

KOTOR combat is foolish. NWN combat is awesome.

Well, in your world maybe....

[Pidesco]

KOTOR combat is foolish. NWN combat is awesome.

 

 

Kotor combat is NWN combat with three characters to control instead of one.

[Volourn]

"Kotor combat is NWN combat with three characters to control instead of one."

 

Nope. It's dumbed down NWN combat that has none of the awesome factor. KOTOR combat is a joke. A big fat mystical joke on REAL gamers.

 

NWN combat is just plain awesome. It's that simple.

[tripleRRR]

For the most part I found NWN combat to be just as boring as KotOR. All you did just about every fight was queue up your party's moves for a couple turns then hunt for loot.

[~Di]

Hmm. There were some wishes for more interesting companions... but are there even going to be companions? I thought this would be like IWD, where we create our own party.

 

I for one would like resting to be implemented as it was in NWN2. For the first time ever, mages were flat worth the money in NWN because they weren't relegated to flinging bullets and buffs after blowing their spells in the first few minutes... or worse, saving all their big spells for "when they are really needed", which usually means they are never used because the player knows as soon as they're gone, the mage will be useless again.

 

People who don't want to rest don't have to rest; but if resting is disabled, or turned into a nighmare of having to run back to an "inn" and spending 8 hours to recharge (one of the most annoying things about BG/BG2, and the reason I never, ever played as a mage in those games), those of us who don't find that tedium to be fun have had our choices taken away. I was really, really disappointed when the rest system that had been in place throughout the entire NWN series was suddenly changed for MOTB.

 

If the hardcore "permanent death, no rest, friendly fire so your mages become equal-opportunity killers, turn it from an RPG to a tactical combat game" crowd gets its way, I'm sure they'll be very happy. But it won't be an NWN game, and only the hardcore gamers will be buying.

[Jaesun]

Hmm. There were some wishes for more interesting companions... but are there even going to be companions? I thought this would be like IWD, where we create our own party.

 

There ARE companions who can join you. We don't know how many of them there are though. And since the party cap is at 4, I *assume* that if you have the free slots, you can then bring them along.

 

I for one would like resting to be implemented as it was in NWN2. For the first time ever, mages were flat worth the money in NWN because they weren't relegated to flinging bullets and buffs after blowing their spells in the first few minutes... or worse, saving all their big spells for "when they are really needed", which usually means they are never used because the player knows as soon as they're gone, the mage will be useless again.

 

There *MAY* be a new resting system in SoZ, but they are still testing it out. I assume if they don't like it, we would just have the same rests system that was in MotB.

 

People who don't want to rest don't have to rest; but if resting is disabled, or turned into a nighmare of having to run back to an "inn" and spending 8 hours to recharge (one of the most annoying things about BG/BG2, and the reason I never, ever played as a mage in those games), those of us who don't find that tedium to be fun have had our choices taken away. I was really, really disappointed when the rest system that had been in place throughout the entire NWN series was suddenly changed for MOTB.

 

?? I do not remember any changes in resting from NWN2 OC and in MotB, other than you could now rest until morning etc.. It was the same? As in you could not rest if enemies were near by, and a few areas (not many) were marked as you could not rest.

[Dark_Raven]

KOTOR combat is foolish. NWN combat is awesome.

Nah. Your comment is foolish. Kotor combat was good.

[Pop]

You didn't really need to rest at an inn in BG2. Whereas in BG1 you could be interrupted during any of the 8 hours it takes for a full rest, in BG2 if you paused the game you technically couldn't be interrupted in the cities (actual enemies excluded) and you could just spam the rest button until you succeeded (though if you unpause it after 18 failures there will be 18 guards telling you off)

[~Di]

There ARE companions who can join you. We don't know how many of them there are though. And since the party cap is at 4, I *assume* that if you have the free slots, you can then bring them along.

 

Oooooh. I see! Thank you!

 

?? I do not remember any changes in resting from NWN2 OC and in MotB, other than you could now rest until morning etc.. It was the same? As in you could not rest if enemies were near by, and a few areas (not many) were marked as you could not rest.

 

The rest systems were way different. In NWN2 (and the NWN 1 series as well), resting consisted of a 5-second break with no real time impact. Made it wonderful for mages. We could fling our entire inventory of fireballs, rest, then fling them over again at the next wave. I'd have never made it through the Crossroad Keep siege with the MOTB system, which was a full 8-hour rest, time sensitive (in order to further screw with your depleting Spirit Energy), could not be used between battling groups of enemies or inside a half-cleared dungeon. Bah. I hated it. Mages were useless again.

[Jaesun]

The rest systems were way different. In NWN2 (and the NWN 1 series as well), resting consisted of a 5-second break with no real time impact. Made it wonderful for mages. We could fling our entire inventory of fireballs, rest, then fling them over again at the next wave. I'd have never made it through the Crossroad Keep siege with the MOTB system, which was a full 8-hour rest, time sensitive (in order to further screw with your depleting Spirit Energy), could not be used between battling groups of enemies or inside a half-cleared dungeon. Bah. I hated it. Mages were useless again.

 

OK I see what you mean. Well yes without the Spirit Meter, the Rest System for MotB is basically the same, though yea, you would not be able to rest in the crossroads keep siege, in that i *believe* the rest checks for more enemies near by and yea there is the whole 8 hours do transpire.

 

I didn't need to rest in the crossroads keep siege, but we all play NWN2 differently.

[Volourn]

"If the hardcore "permanent death, no rest, friendly fire so your mages become equal-opportunity killers, turn it from an RPG to a tactical combat game" crowd gets its way, I'm sure they'll be very happy. But it won't be an NWN game, and only the hardcore gamers will be buying."

 

Actually, it would be a NWN game. Great thing about NWN is that it incorporates all sorts of rule including variant resting rules. Heck, in HOTU, you cna get attacked when trying to sleep. IIRC, you couldn't rest in every area in SOU either. You also didn't have insta teleport stones after NWN1 except briefly in SOU either.

 

NWN series is about rule changing, and experimenting. Heck, in most modules including some BIO created ones, there were actual hardcore death rules. *shrug*

 

This is why NWN series is awesome as is Aurora. There is no set rules. It cna change module to module. Totally cool!!!

[Monte Carlo]

If the hardcore "permanent death, no rest, friendly fire so your mages become equal-opportunity killers, turn it from an RPG to a tactical combat game" crowd gets its way, I'm sure they'll be very happy. But it won't be an NWN game, and only the hardcore gamers will be buying.

 

So, what you're really saying is that you prefer unlimited power so combat doesn't interrupt the next soppy romance / plot / cookie cutter NPC chatter cutscene?

 

Tactics are and always have been a vital part of CRPGs. Those that avoid this rule are usually less than the sum of parts (I know this forum is stacked full of Planescape fans but PS:T is a case in point).

 

Developers have to satisfy both camps - the gamers like you who prefer to not have to think about how they use their combat abilties and powers, and players like me who love thinking about it and find romances and similar guff secondary distractions. Good games contain enough of each to keep us all happy.

 

Simple, logical dynamics like having to plan a bit about where you can rest and where you throw extremely lethal spells aren't "hard-core." They simply assist (a) gameplay and (b) the suspension of disbelief. Personally, I find the bizarre fact that a fireball thrown into melee only harms your enemies completely irritating. I wish it was an option you could switch on and off. Infinity Engine combat was far more satisfying in this respect.

 

Cheers

MC

[Gromnir]

If the hardcore "permanent death, no rest, friendly fire so your mages become equal-opportunity killers, turn it from an RPG to a tactical combat game" crowd gets its way, I'm sure they'll be very happy. But it won't be an NWN game, and only the hardcore gamers will be buying.

 

So, what you're really saying is that you prefer unlimited power so combat doesn't interrupt the next soppy romance / plot / cookie cutter NPC chatter cutscene?

 

 

 

Di is, for better or worse, an unabashed 1007 greedy munchkin of the first water. she were one o' those re-roll fanatics with the infinity engine games... trying to get an Uber-Di character. she bemoaned the fact that bioware and bis nerfed ranged weapons following bg1, and she has admitted that the will take a dozen trips to town to sell of dropped armour n' such... to maximize her ph47 10075. doesn't make her a bad person or nothing, but Di is pretty much immune to any "balance" or "challenge" argument.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[~Di]

Oh crap. I give up. There is only one way to "correctly" enjoy a game, and that's how the hardcore players decide a game must be played. Screw you all. I am but munchkin powergamer who is to be disrespected, insulted, mocked and ridiculed. Nobody has any worthwhile feedback except those who are DnD afficionados who adore the thrill of perma-death and constant reload.

 

There's little reason to post any feedback here unless it conforms to the whims of those who believe themselves the true heroes of DnD hardcore. The rest of us are mere idiots or "greedy muchkins". Go ahead. Drill the developers with demands from the hardcore folks who are about 1/10th of the sales necessary to make a game's breakeven point. After all, only what you like is important.

 

Go ahead, insult me personally, Gromir, Volourn, Monte Carlo, et al. You are so superior to me, after all. ONly your preferences are important. Anyone who disagrees is obvious a munchkin, powergaming idiot. At this point, I really don't give a damn. If Obsidian capitulates to a dozen loud-mouthed, demanding fanzillas, then they deserve what they get from the majority who don't enjoy irritating interpretations of DnD and taunting interpretations leading to tedium and frustration. Only your desires are important, after all. Anyone who doesn't share them is subject to ridicule.

 

I've given my last dollar to Obsidian, if they continue to cater to y'all at the expense of those who simply want a fun and enjoyable gaming experience. Revel in your superiority, you self-important twits. Narcissism is its own reward... or so I'm told.

Edited July 26, 2008 by ~Di

[Monte Carlo]

Who mocked you? I merely politely pointed out a difference.

 

Furthermore, hardly anybody here agrees with each other. About anything.

 

Chill out. You know you want to.

[Atreides]

It's good to hear many opinions and I think Di puts more thought/effort into her posts than many. As such I look forward to reading what you post.

 

This rest-rules thing and friendly fire(ball) thing seems like a simple indicator variable thing that can be changed in the difficulty/rule implementation options. We already have the puppet mode and full rules settings so it already addresses many of the concerns here.

 

Only thing that couldn't easily be tweaked was the non-perma death because in the previous games the story was heavily dependent on your companions surviving to the point. Since this is a own-party with optional companions thing maybe that need's lessened and perma death can be toggled on/off.

[Tartaro]

Many of the opinions I've read are things that can be changed with the toolset... I understand people who only plays OC also wants simple things for the single player, but I'm developer and I prefere PW, so I would like to see big changes. No more stupid classes, improve the Dm client instead. No more epic levels and powerfull things, create a new duel magic system. Make ride available, no only horses, I want to ride a warg wolf.

I hope I like the new traveling and merchant system.

 

This rest-rules thing and friendly fire(ball) thing seems like a simple indicator variable thing that can be changed in the difficulty/rule implementation options.

 

Is this true? Can I attack with "Disarm"(for example) to a neutral or defender Npc? How? Where are these options?

If not, please, change that too, it's important in a role playing PW.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Tartaro

[Tigranes]

Oh crap. I give up. There is only one way to "correctly" enjoy a game, and that's how the hardcore players decide a game must be played.

 

Let's be fair. Your statement that "If the hardcore "permanent death, no rest, friendly fire so your mages become equal-opportunity killers, turn it from an RPG to a tactical combat game..." strongly implies that the kind of tactical considerations being discussed (mage resource management, etc) are a foreign element to CRPGs, and they benefit nobody but a minority of hardcores. Monte Carlo ("Tactics are and always have been a vital part of CRPGs.") is saying basically the same kind of thing, but from the opposite angle - that on the contrary, such tactical considerations hvae always been a part, has a place, and optimally, he "wish[es] it was an option you could switch on and off". I wouldn't say there's anything offensive or narrow-minded about that.

 

Yeah, okay, Gromnir is Gromnir and personally I think his use of charged words were careless and unnecessary. But take away the silly-sting, and isn't "Di is pretty much immune to any "balance" or "challenge" argument." a fair (and inoffensive) assessment? You're not looking for a 'realistically' balanced tactical change, and in fact, you believe it to benefit only a small minority. There's nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with certain folks here being very vocal about what they want in a game. It wouldn't help the industry for either party to lay down and give in.

 

Anyway, difficulty's a hard thing to get spot on. I find post-KOTOR CRPGs very easy for the most part, so it's hard for me to imagine where the challenge lies - makes it hard for me to try and understand. But I really have to agree with MC here, and vote for the IE method of difficulty. Drop it all the way down to easy, and your mages won't friendly fire anyone: you'll generally be able to fight at a more relaxed pace because it is more forgiving: if you want to just win quickly and move on, you can. As you crank it up more tactical considerations come into play. I'd say RPGs and strat games are actually the most flexible in this regard, because with say, a platformer, if you can't make a jump, you can't make that jump, and you're going to sit there pulling your hair out until you can. When everything is just numbers and dice rolls you can take out things like friendly fire, resistances, decrease save rolls, etc.

 

Rest? Yeah, okay, thats a bit different. I think it wasn't quite so much MOTB's new resting system as the fact that it was connected to the Spirit Meter - you could still rest quite often, but then you'd need to go eat something up. I'd agree that you can't really deny the Spirit Meter & the interconnected mechanisms were quite restrictive in the kind of playing style it forced. But I wouldn't see that in terms of a casual-hardcore scale at all. It was just a different game. Let's just get away from silly casual vs. hardcore, What-is-RPG arguments. MOTB is a video game. It is a video game which offers a specific kind of gameplay. If you want to rest a lot and have your mages firing without having to bother with the Spirit Meter so much, I would suggest that that is a problem with the playing experience offered, not the fact that it's made too 'hardcore'. You didn't enjoy MOTB as much as you might have because you didn't want to play the game it was, you wanted to play NWN2 with the new story. That's like me trying to play GTAIV as a slow, twitch-hater, of course it's going to make things hard and awkward.

 

The only caveat would be that MOTB was an expansion pack, so it was fair of you to expect to be able to play the same kind of game as the original. But personally, I like the fact that Obsidian sees each xpack as really an original game on a smaller scale, because you can't always get the same kind of new gameplay features when you are having to develop a game from the ground up. I think it's a nice thing to do, even if I may not agree with the new experience offered.

 

This post is way too confusing. Ai-ya.

[Atreides]

Is this true? Can I attack with "Disarm"(for example) to a neutral or defender Npc? How? Where are these options?

If not, please, change that too, it's important in a role playing PW.

Ain't sure 'bout your example, but you can toggle on more D&D rules like critical hits from enemies, friendly fireballs etc from Difficulty under Options.

[Volourn]

"I wish it was an option you could switch on and off. Infinity Engine combat was far more satisfying in this respect."

 

Umm.. It is. Just play on hardcore rules, and play on player vs player settings. You can burn your companions just fine in the NWN series. You can also web them, grease them, and any other area e4ffect spells that effects everyone in the area. IE is NOT better in this area.

 

 

And, Di, I never insulted you nor did I attack you in that post.

 

All I said was NWN series isn't locked into one particular playstyle or ruleset. Heck, the base death rule is bleed to you die. BIO actually had to make a script in the NWN OC to get respawning to work. And, respawning was taken away in NWN1 starting in SOU (though in ch1 you had that vteelport ring that brought you back to your mentor's house); btu that no longer worked in in the next section.

 

 

...

[Gromnir]

am thinking that Di were a bit too sensitive 'bout this. weren't really trying to be mean, but you has been pretty upfront in past 'bout how you will hike back to town to get every farthing and shilling from sale o' dropped items o' 1007... and you re-rolled quite a bit in the ie games. you hated that the developers "fixed" ranged weapons after bg1 and these is just a handful o' examples.

 

as we has said dozens o' times in past, we don't get Di's pov, but your way o' playing is hardly inferior. if you enjoy playing as you do, and you get money's worth from games, then good for you. even so, you IS a munchkin in every sense o' the word, and you does try to maximize 1007 cycle. it not make you a bad person, and is not wrong that you enjoy playing as you do... but for folks to try and convince you o' the error o' your ways with a balance or challenge argument is doomed from start.

 

 

whatever.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Whipporwill]

The engine wasn't designed for squad-based tactical combat and handles it badly. It was designed as a single-character action game, and the farther it gets pushed from that concept, the more clumsy and frustrating it's going to become.

[Volourn]

"The engine wasn't designed for squad-based tactical combat and handles it badly. It was designed as a single-character action game, and the farther it gets pushed from that concept, the more clumsy and frustrating it's going to become. "

 

Totally wrong.

 

Aurora is no more action combat than any IE game. It has the same base combat engine - 6 second rules, and combat is done solely based on character skill not player skiller (outside of player intellect).

 

Aurora combat > IE combat.

 

It cna handle squad based tatical combat eaisly, and does it awesomely.

 

AURORA > IE

 

Period.

[Whipporwill]

I don't recall mentioning IE. I don't know why you're bringing it up, except that you obviously think it proves something or other. In fact, you haven't addressed what I wrote at all, other than to quibble over my use of the word "action."

Edited July 26, 2008 by Whipporwill

[Volourn]

Actually, I did address your point. You called Aurora combat action combat with the not so subtle implication that IE isn't.

 

Aurora combat isn't actiony. Not even close to it. By definition, it can't be. It's mechanics - at least for the D&D versions of the engine - can't be.

 

 

 

"The engine wasn't designed for squad-based tactical combat and handles it badly"

 

The engine was designed for D&D combat be it with one controleld character + npcs or the multi headed monster. And, it does it awesomely.

 

Best. engine. evar.