Thoughts on Mandatory Combat

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I've heard of people beating the HotU endboss that way. Apparently he's not immune to death attacks, so Finger of Death has a 5% chance of killing him.

 

Yeah, it's OK for Malak to have a crit fail on you, once. But he really should be checking his damage rolls.

 

Power Attack goes up to +10 at master level. Someone crunched the numbers and the combat feats are pretty well balanced. Flurry's the least damaging by a small margin, but makes up for that by having the smallest downside. Nice work by WotC

Same with the dragon in IWD II. If you send enough disintergrates at it one of them usually gets through :D

 

I never once looked at the combat readout when playing KOTOR I went purely on the on screen feedback. I think the NPCs should take the same sort of approach as a player would. Once you have a confirmed failure you normally switch tactics and try something else although when it comes to partial immunities thats not always the case. An NPC should do the same. I dont like the idea of the NPC having godlike knowledge over what your party has equipped and automatically exploiting that advantage. I do recall playing an FF game where the boss used scan and then on the second round tore into the characters weakness with a vengeance. But since I had the same tools it was fine. The boss wasnt cheating so much as being clever.

 

Wouldnt flurry depend on what sort of weapon you had equipped for the extra attack? I can see how powerblast would be very effective for blasters at +10 but thats less than minimum damage for some lightsabers.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I've never really understood the fascination of the search for the fabled "pacifist build" for FO and other RPG:s. Would it really add that much to the gameplay value? I'm all for a challenging game and different playing experiences but I just feel that the amount of zots spend on making a completely nonviolent path in a game could be spent on coming up with a more advanced combat engine that allows for different combat strategies such as allowing non-lethal takedowns and allowing true usage of cover.

 

This doesn't mean that I'm against the opportunity to speak/lie/convince your way out of trouble but there are situations that one simply should not be able to speak yourself out of.....

It's too artificial for my tastes. It makes the assumption that the NPC's are there to do what you want them to do , rather than as complete individuals which exist in that world.

 

My phillosophy is that all paths should be the best path at some point in the game but likewise there should always be points where your chosen path is a liability too.

 

I dont mind talking either. As long as the NPC gets something out of it which makes it a worthwhile option for them. Rather than the PC just arriving making whatever speech roll they need and the NPC bowing to their every whim for no other reason.

[Llyranor]

I think diplomacy is a good thing (I usually play diplomatic characters), but like ShadowPaliepoo said, it shouldn't be a be-all-end-all tactic. It should work for dumb morons or with characters with which the diplomacy would also benefit, but not for everyone.

 

For people who want you dead, there should be other nonviolent ways to confront them (perhaps for not confronting them at all).

 

In my NWN mod (NWN SUXXORS), I'm trying to make up CREATIVE ways to avoid combat, and talking won't work all the time.

[kefka]

The RPG "end boss" should be toned down also.

 

Enemies shouldn't be immune to your most powerful attacks. It's a cheap tactic. After playing through the game you deserve a reward. I'm sick of playing games where you spend ages improving your skills but the end boss is immune to them. That's no fun. If you have a spell or power which kills, then let the end guy save or die. I would find that rewarding. HotU gives you that chance, apparently.

 

In KotOR I crushed Malak easily but I had to use energy shields and health packs and I'd rather beat him using my skills alone. Luke didn't fire up a shield against Vader, now did he?

Malak is also a cowardly cheat - he runs away every time you give him a beating to replenish his energy. And he was immune to most force powers. Pathetic! I'm sure you can have a rewarding fight without the enemy 'cheating'.

 

btw, I think a "pacifist" build would be no fun at all, especially in a Star Wars RPG. If you talk your way out of every fight what kind of challenge would there be? RPGs avoid this by having NPCs attack regardless of what you do and I agree with that. Persuasion is an option to avoid conflict, nothing more.

[Atreides]

I really hated Sarevok's magic resistance in BG1. I mean wtf, my mage which I've played the whole game with - relegated to running around and throwing stones at whoever he can.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The RPG "end boss" should be toned down also.

 

btw, I think a "pacifist" build would be no fun at all, especially in a Star Wars RPG. If you talk your way out of every fight what kind of challenge would there be? RPGs avoid this by having NPCs attack regardless of what you do and I agree with that. Persuasion is an option to avoid conflict, nothing more.

I'm not sure about that one.. One of the things I enjoy most about the JRPG's are those three stage end boss battles. I get more of a feeling of accomplishment than from any of the BG's IWD's or pretty much anything non Japanese for that matter.

The one in Skies of Arcadia is phenomenal. As is the one against your namesake in FFVI .Of course they do tend to be more stand up fights than the staged battle at the end of KOTOR where Malak is artificially enhanced by those annoying pods.

 

People find fun in different things. I think you really have to stretch the credibility of most game worlds to enable a game to be finished without conflict. Playing a coward basically entails reloading whenever you fail your speech roll and is really cheap anyway.

[kefka]

I'm not sure about that one.. One of the things I enjoy most about the JRPG's are those three stage end boss battles.

I'll make an exception for Japanese RPGs. They are unique.

I love end battles. Really, I do! However, some games totally negate your powers and I can't stand that.

 

One of my favorite Jap RPGs is Seiken Densetsu 3 (SOM2). You always have a chance against every boss no matter how powerful they are. None of your own powers are rendered useless, you simply have to use tactics against your opponent.

 

When your only way of winning is pre-determined tactics it's more like blind luck. Big 'M' of HotU has stumped quite a few people. Certain builds are useless against this guy (unless you know his name!), but that's hardly fair when you've played through the entire game just to be humiliated by the end guy.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Being a "pacifist" is no more fun nor different than being any other type of character that can do other things. Its just based on character skills and planning you decide to use in the game. Its not an ultimate tactic, its just a tactic like any other.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

When your only way of winning is pre-determined tactics it's more like blind luck. Big 'M' of HotU has stumped quite a few people. Certain builds are useless against this guy (unless you know his name!), but that's hardly fair when you've played through the entire game just to be humiliated by the end guy.

I kind of felt like that at the end of KOTOR. Didnt have anything that could disable the tanks so it turned into beat on Malek till he runs off and repeat until he ran out tanks.

 

Not that satisfying and nothing like the grand Jedi clashes of SW , or even the JK seires.

 

That happened to me when I was doing minimum seasons on CC. Should have known when it took nearly 2 hours to kill the meteor parasite. But I agree if you have followed the main plot you should at least have a chance of killing the end boss no matter what your chosen build. Quite a few people had trouble with Malak. If you have drain life then its not even a contest because you just drain the pods before he gets the chance. But when its a one on one fight I think you have to pay much more attention to how the end battle is structured and allow for various builds.

[The Situationist]

I really hated Sarevok's magic resistance in BG1. I mean wtf, my mage which I've played the whole game with - relegated to running around and throwing stones at whoever he can.

They did get rid of it with TotSC, IIRC, but his saving throws are still fairly insane.

 

That's what Greater Malison is there for. Ten scrolls from Sorcerous Sundries and he'll be putty in your hand. Charm, Feeblemind, or Polymorph him - whatever you like.

[AlanC9]

Malak is also a cowardly cheat - he runs away every time you give him a beating to replenish his energy. And he was immune to most force powers. Pathetic! I'm sure you can have a rewarding fight without the enemy 'cheating'.

Wait a minute. Malak isn't "cheating" - he isn't immune to anything a PC couldn't be immune to, is he? He has mind immunity, but there are a boatload of mind iummunity items in the game. And he casts Force Immunity on himself, but he's supposed to do that, no? If anything, a player can one-up him on immunity by getting the belt that negates Force Lightning.

 

I notice a recurring problem with Bio endbosses, though. Strategies that carry you through the whole game have a chance of failing outright in the last battle. Nothing wrong with making players think, but it's no fun when you find out your build's no good in the endgame.

 

@ ShadowPaladin: Power Attack's usually better if you're using Master Speed - that's +10 damage on three attacks (four for dual-wielders). Of course, a really good weapon or high strength might put Flurry on top again.

[Darque]

eh? Force immunity?

 

Not the Malak I beat down.

 

I think his saves are just high end... but a well built Consular can beat him easy with force powers... and ONLY force powers

[Tigranes]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but Irenicus is vulnerable to the Vorpal Sword, and SOA can end with a right hit from it.

 

I always find RPG end bosses - especially Final Fantasy ones - depressingly bad. Writing and personality varies from game to game, but the actual fights are nearly always crap, and even the best RPGs don't save themselves from this seemingly inevitable design failure.

 

Let's see. Irenicus has the power to cast spells seemingly without rest for prolonged period of time, throw out powerful death spells for sadistic enjoyment, construct amazing magical equipment, and when you face him all he is is a mage that has speeded through the SOA level progression, with a few extra gimmicks stuck on. Where are the unique spells, special equipment, etc? All he has is defensive contingencies, annoying mazes and a few high level mage spells. Blehhh.

 

Sarevok wasn't any better; all he ever did was swing a sword and be immune to magic (which was, yes, verrrry annoying). The battle was improved by traps, Sarevok's allies and resulting chaos that emulated a proper battle, but it was depressing to pepper arrows into the endboss till he dropped on his face.

 

I can't think of any examples that are better; in fact, Sephiroth of FF7 comes to mind (nearly a God? he can't do anything.), and Ultimecia of FF8, Necron / Kuja at FF9... they all are ridiculously weak, reduced to a beefed character with one or two extra gimmicks.

[newc0253]

It's only different if you add in the party dynamic. Otherwise its very similiar. Especially to IWD II with its active feats.

yes, i agree. apart from the fact that the party-based, turn-based approach makes it very different, it is otherwise completely similar.

 

Curious that. What did you like about IE combat ? (my guess would be the party dynamic).

 

dynamic? not sure what you mean there. for me, IE combat was essentially turn-based in a way that was only slightly less formal than TOEE. of course, you could play using henchmen AI and not use the pause key but that would have been pretty retarded.

 

Not sure what you mean by silly. If it worked for lightsabers it must by default work for other melee. Unless your of the opinion that a lightsaber should be able to cut through other weapons.

 

sure, but that's only because my idea of how lightsabres work comes from the star wars movies. stupid me, huh?

 

the bottom line is that KOTOR combat looks like D&D combat. whereas it should look like combat from the star wars movies. with the exception of light sabre duels, it does a pretty terrible job.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

yes, i agree. apart from the fact that the party-based, turn-based approach makes it very different, it is otherwise completely similar.

 

dynamic? not sure what you mean there. for me, IE combat was essentially turn-based in a way that was only slightly less formal than TOEE. of course, you could play using henchmen AI and not use the pause key but that would have been pretty retarded.

 

sure, but that's only because my idea of how lightsabres work comes from the star wars movies. stupid me, huh?

 

the bottom line is that KOTOR combat looks like D&D combat. whereas it should look like combat from the star wars movies. with the exception of light sabre duels, it does a pretty terrible job.

NWN and KOTOR work like that too. Probably on 5 or 6 second turns like in the IE games.

 

KOTOR is 4000 years before the films and Jedi are relatively common. Hence you have large numbers of weapons with cortosis weave in them. After the purge when there are hardly any Jedi left and they are rather concerned with staying out of sight you no longer need it.

[newc0253]

NWN and KOTOR work like that too. Probably on 5 or 6 second turns like in the IE games.

except that the lack of NPC control in NWN meant that the tactical feel of NWN combat as against the IE games was utterly different.

 

KoTOR was better. but my complaint against KoTOR isn't with NPC control. it's the D&Dization of the combat, which leads to phony combat scenarios where people face off with blasters at point blank range. now maybe that's your idea of realistic gun battles, but it sure as hell ain't mine.

 

KOTOR is 4000 years before the films and Jedi are relatively common. Hence you have large numbers of weapons with cortosis weave in them. After the purge when there are hardly any Jedi left and they are rather concerned with staying out of sight you no longer need it.

 

what purge?? is this some extended universe thing? because, if it is, i gotta say i don't really pay attention to that stuff.

 

as for the idea of cortosis weave, that's just plain stupid. if it were so effective against jedi, why wouldn't the more advanced society 4000 years later have it as standard? how come the droid army didn't have cortosis plating? or the stormtroopers? hell, in 4000 years you could probably have developed cortosis weave evening-wear.

 

face it, if a jedi in the movies can use a lightsabre to cut through most metal like it was butter, then they would be a lot more devastating in hand to hand combat than they are in KoTOR. i'm sorry you feel the need to come up with lame excuses to justify why its different in KoTOR, but then i guess you wouldn't be fulfilling the role as a fanboy.

[Lord Tingeling]

Hmm, I agree with most things newc said.

 

what purge?? is this some extended universe thing? because, if it is, i gotta say i don't really pay attention to that stuff.

 

The Jedi purge. You know, not too long (relatively speaking) before episode IV.

 

as for the idea of cortosis weave, that's just plain stupid. if it were so effective against jedi, why wouldn't the more advanced society 4000 years later have it as standard?

 

Because it might have been very expensive and there were very few jedi around?

 

 

face it, if a jedi in the movies can use a lightsabre to cut through most metal like it was butter, then they would be a lot more devastating in hand to hand combat than they are in KoTOR

 

Well, a lightsaber doing only a little more damage than your average plain longsword is indeed a bit strange.

[Berserk]

^

The "purge" is the Jedi genocide that the emperor starts in Episode 3.....

[newc0253]

uh? how can Vader's purge explain the rarity of jedi/lack of cortosis weave in episodes 1 to 3?

[Berserk]

uh? how can Vader's purge explain the rarity of jedi/lack of cortosis weave in episodes 1 to 3?

Don't ask me, you wanted to know what the purge was, so I told you

The only thing I can think of is that during KOTOR:s timeline Jedi were far more common and more active in the galactic politics so it kind of figures that certain "elements" wanted to be somewhat prepared for intruding Jedi. Not that it helped those fools that were dumb enough to get in way of my lightning......

Edited April 5, 2004 by Berserk

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

KoTOR was better. but my complaint against KoTOR isn't with NPC control. it's the D&Dization of the combat, which leads to phony combat scenarios where people face off with blasters at point blank range. now maybe that's your idea of realistic gun battles, but it sure as hell ain't mine.

 

what purge?? is this some extended universe thing? because, if it is, i gotta say i don't really pay attention to that stuff.

 

as for the idea of cortosis weave, that's just plain stupid. if it were so effective against jedi, why wouldn't the more advanced society 4000 years later have it as standard? how come the droid army didn't have cortosis plating? or the stormtroopers? hell,  in 4000 years you could probably have developed cortosis weave evening-wear.

 

face it, if a jedi in the movies can use a lightsabre to cut through most metal like it was butter, then they would be a lot more devastating in hand to hand combat than they are in KoTOR. i'm sorry you feel the need to come up with lame excuses to justify why its different in KoTOR, but then i guess you wouldn't be fulfilling the role as a fanboy.

Depends on which definition of realistic you are using. For modern combat most hand weapon encounters take place around 15 feet appart.

 

If there is no cover its not like you have any option.

 

Because with fewer Jedi and the destruction of the Sith it would then be a purely blackmarket/bounty hunter item.

 

Star Wars is a pretty static universe as far as technology goes. 4000 thousand years before EP1 they are using blasters. At the end of EP VI , still using blasters.

4000 years before EP 1 they have FTL travel and they still have it with very little change 4000 years later.

 

Why would you outfit an entire army in cortosis when there are only a handful of Jedi(even less after EPII). The droid army was taken down by destroying its control centre. Not by hacking it appart on the battlefield.

At the time of the StormTroopers the only active Jedi was on their side anyway.

 

It's hardly a lame excuse its simply a demontration of how weapons technology follows the needs of the times. Me a bioware fanboy LOL. Your mistaking me for Voloun I think.

 

Just because the implementation of cortosis dosnt fit with your personal little Jedi fantasy dosnt make it wrong or badly done.

[Volourn]

Beh. You had to dragme into this.

 

For the record, ..

 

 

Fanboy = Rating games 75%, making fun of KOTOR's simplified combat, laughinga the controls and BLAMING BIO while most others blem the consoles. yeah, if that's the definition of fanboy youa re using then sure that's what i am.

 

 

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Beh. You had to dragme into this.

 

For the record, ..

 

 

Fanboy = Rating games 75%, making fun of KOTOR's simplified combat, laughinga the controls and BLAMING BIO while most others blem the consoles. yeah, if that's the definition of fanboy youa re using then sure that's what i am.

 

 

 

Still you are a self confessed fanboy

 

I just read that MS bought WOTC wonder if its true because that could throw all sorts of interesting spanners in the works.

[Judge Hades]

Microsoft buying WotC?!?!?!

 

JESUS H. CHRIST! They already got R. Talsorian by the balls for not letting Mike Pondsmith the time to finish Cyberpunk v3.

 

DAMN YOU BILL GATES!

[triCritical]

You can't be a 'total pacifist' in the Fo games. Stop spreading myths, rumours, and innuendo.

In FO1 you only have to blow up the military base, and have the option of using a loud count. Anyhow its just like saying you can't be a total pacifist in Texas since people on death row die all the time, and its the state of Texas, hence the citizens, which are condemning them to death.

 

Anyhow your mission is to destroy the Master and destroy the Supermutants. While blood will spill inevitably, you can beat the game without engaging in any combat, and have NO kills marked on you character sheet. I have never seen another game that allows you to play that game. What you are saying is much more misleading then someone saying you can play a pacifist.