Mask of the Betrayer Redux

[Kelverin]

My issues is the the "character camera" however I was able to overcome my issues, but I am stuck only playing Gnomes and Halfings. I like to use an almost 1st person view and it is impossible to negotiate the corridors and see what is going on with larger race's. Samples

Edited November 13, 2007 by Kelverin

[Gorgon]

In Mask os the Betrayer there is this dungeon called

The Skain

 

 

Because of the way the camera works you can't see where you are going at all, You basically either grope your way around or use the area map and walk around with the little arrows.

 

After I had cleared the place out and solved a few quests a new way opened enabling me to continue, I walked around aimlessly for 30 mins looking for the set of stairs that would lead me out. The area map was useless because it didn't show stairs, and the camera is so unwieldy you can't see whats in a room unless you battle the camera focus and happen to get lucky, letting it show you what you want to see. The smaller the space, the worse the camera acts.

 

It's quite simply horrible, It has been ever since NWN2 first came out. Some attempts were made to reign it in, but none of them solved the core problem.

[Morgoth]

I never had any problems with the new strategy-mode camera. The Character-mode camera sucks, though.

[Gromnir]

I never had any problems with the new strategy-mode camera. The Character-mode camera sucks, though.

 

am beginning to get the picture that the camera problem is pretty much a character-mode issue... and as Gromnir never uses character mode we gots 0 frame o' reference.

 

 

d&d is, at its core, a squad-based tactical combat game... looks down at graph paper or dry-erase maps and move your pawns 'bout from your godlike pov.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

Yeah, the strat-cam is fine. My comp can't handle the lag from drawing ceilings anyway, and unlike KOTOR games, NWN games are built with narrow corridors that make it much harder to have a behind-the-shoulder cam, no matter how good the camera mechanics are.

 

I play permanent strat cam with minimal movement and have no trouble in any NWN games, except that annoying tendency for it to zoom down when you've just exited a structure, and its hard to get it back on track.

[Wombat]

I have been using exclusively the strategy mode straight from the start (I tried the character mode but I don't think I can use the mode throughout the game or even in one map). Seeing some people claims that they have no problem, there must be some problem with my setting/environment. The first thing struck my mind is the mouse: I am using a very primitive serial mouse with no middle button/wheel at the moment since my wheel mouse is broken. I need to hold down x key and hit end key often to deal with camera and it feels more annoying than when I played the official campaign with my late wheel mouse. I couldn't see if the reason of the annoyance is the mouse or the strategy mode since the mode didn't exist when I played the OC. I have already slowed down the turning speed of the mouse and sped up the scrolling speed in the setting but I am now inclined to conclude the mouse is the main problem. Well, I am going to buy a mouse myself eventually but it will take time since I want to check how it fit to my hand.

 

That said, I still feel "no problem" is overstatement...this may partially come from how much we were happy with NWN camera modes. In my case, I haven't played much of NWN and NWN2. I'd like to look down the party from a farer distance, which may allow me just click on the map and wait the characters move to the location as in Infinity Engine and, above all, I simply want to forget about the camera once I set it up to my liking. I know it is probably not fair to compare NWN2 with the Temple of Elemental Evil and Infinity Engine, where the maps are 2D but I feel I am experiencing the demerit of 3D engine rather than enjoying it at the current state of implementation (BTW, oddly, I liked the 3 dimensionally visualized giant frogs, gelatin cubes and magic missile effects in ToEE, for example). This reminds me of the claim of J.E.Sawyer in which he says that the modern game engine is not well-fitted to PnP mechanisms while back. I basically agree with him except that he has gone too far by insisting that the PnP style tactical combat simulation gameplay be intrinsically inferior. It would have been much clearer to me if he had said that making a good role-playing game with a solid tactical combat simulation on modern engine is not cost-efficient and difficult to realize in the current state of game industry. Then again, considering the circumstances, I think MotB designers did a real great job and, as I have already written, basically I am enjoying the game. After all, my part of complaints are just the other side of a coin: Different from other NWN works, the content is good enough for me to keep interested in the game, which makes me all the more annoyed by some "accessibility" issues.

[Gromnir]

"I know it is probably not fair to compare NWN2 with the Temple of Elemental Evil and Infinity Engine, where the maps are 2D but I feel I am experiencing the demerit of 3D engine rather than enjoying it at the current state of implementation (BTW, oddly, I liked the 3 dimensionally visualized giant frogs, gelatin cubes and magic missile effects in ToEE, for example)."

 

*chuckle*

 

the funny thing is that now that Gromnir has played so much nwn2 and motb, every time we tries to play bg2 or ps:t (would rather have tiny glass shards rubbed into our eyeball than try to play toee again,) we find ourself trying to zoom in and out with the wheel mouse. the fixed overhead perspective, while functional, is far more limiting and limited than nwn2 strat view. you happen to get a battle in a doorway in bg2 or toee (a frequent occurrence as Gromnir typically used doorways as extra immovable and unassailable defenders,) or there just happens to be a large wall or structure in way, and you pretty much gotta simply endure seeing half of battle. yeah, in nwn2 we sometimes get a bad pov and we gotta adjust, but with ie and toee there were some situations in which you need to realize the limitations o' the 2d pov if you is gonna be able to enjoy the game.

 

fixed 2d left Gromnir with far more situations in which we had less than an optimal view o' the battlefield... 'least compared to nwn2 and it's expansion.

 

oh, and we gots another annoying bug. built ourself a favored soul/rogue/storm lord. the favored soul spell casting primary attribute (from Gromnir pov) is wisdom as wisdom determines dc o' spells cast. however, fs charisma determines max spell level the character can cast as well as bonus spells. gave our fs a 14 charisma and planned to use stat boosting items to get us to 19 by time we reaches point where we could cast 9th level spells... character level 22 or so.

 

one small problem with our plan: reloads wipe out known spells 'bove level 4. as long as Gromnir not have to exit game, everything is fine. our +6 nymph cloak allows Gromnir to use level 9 spells, but if ever we gotta reload game, all spells 'bove level 4 is blacked out til we rest... and this game purposefully makes rest more o' a challenge in some specific areas. not a big problem... is simply more sand in our shoe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wombat]

"I know it is probably not fair to compare NWN2 with the Temple of Elemental Evil and Infinity Engine, where the maps are 2D but I feel I am experiencing the demerit of 3D engine rather than enjoying it at the current state of implementation (BTW, oddly, I liked the 3 dimensionally visualized giant frogs, gelatin cubes and magic missile effects in ToEE, for example)."

 

*chuckle*

 

the funny thing is that now that Gromnir has played so much nwn2 and motb, every time we tries to play bg2 or ps:t (would rather have tiny glass shards rubbed into our eyeball than try to play toee again,) we find ourself trying to zoom in and out with the wheel mouse. the fixed overhead perspective, while functional, is far more limiting and limited than nwn2 strat view. you happen to get a battle in a doorway in bg2 or toee (a frequent occurrence as Gromnir typically used doorways as extra immovable and unassailable defenders,) or there just happens to be a large wall or structure in way, and you pretty much gotta simply endure seeing half of battle. yeah, in nwn2 we sometimes get a bad pov and we gotta adjust, but with ie and toee there were some situations in which you need to realize the limitations o' the 2d pov if you is gonna be able to enjoy the game.

Hmmm... Just the other side of another coin, then? This can be mere psychology of that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know...I guess I am still adapting to NWN engine. This may explain a situation where the designers fail to see "the problems" which the beginners may come across, too, though. About D&D system, I think my cutting edge is coming back...I feel the combat easier now. After all, I think the blank period was much longer than I thought.

[Spider]

I know exactly where Gromnir is coming from. I am currently replaying Fallout Tactics and I keep wishing I could turn that damn camera. Virtually all the time.

 

I've been handling the camera in NWN2 in exactly the same way since the game came out (which would now be called free strategy mode) and haven't had any issues with it. Of course, being used to the Silen Storm camera that is basically identical could have helped getting over the initial hurdle. But even in SS it only took me a few hours before I learned to love the camera.

[Pidesco]

Check this out.

 

As you can see on the right, at Portuguese FNAC (a big chain of stores), MotB is the 6th best selling game for all platforms. It's even ahead of FM2008. Yay!

[Nightblade]

The nwn1 cam was good. They should've just used the nwn1 cam, and added more zoom-out. And it would have to zoom out automatically as well, as you walk up and down roads, so you don't have to manually adjust it (maybe they fixed that already. Haven't played nwn2 since I shelved it 3 days after release). Then if we could choose to remove the circle-markers around the avatars and all the spell-effect-graphics, it might've been a decent tactical-squad-based d&d game where combat was interesting and immersive. I'll get MotB some day.. when it hits the bargain-bin and the game has been patched a few years.

 

N.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Nightblade

[Xard]

NWN2 has exactly same camera as NWN1

 

rosetinted glasses etc.

[Tigranes]

NWN1 also had the same problem of zooming itself to the max when you exited buildings, getting itself confused over elevation changed, etc.

[Volourn]

Nowhere to the same degree, though.

 

 

"rosetinted glasses etc."

 

Nah. That's not true. If it were, I (and the others) would be saying that NWN1 does everything better than NWN2. That simply isn't true. NWN2 does many things better than NWN1 (and vice versa). In the case of the caemera (control), NWN1 wins this. On the surface, it may seem the same; but it sure doesn't feel like it.

 

P.S. Finished MOTB. Pretty good. I'm going back and forth trying to figure out if I prefer MOTB or HOTU as the best NWN series expansion. It's a tough call. Still, definitely better than NWN OC, SOU, and NWN2 OC. And, trumps both KOTORs.

[Gorgon]

NWN1 Has a zoom lock, you can only go so far in, and many of the areas are simply much larger meaning less of the scitzoid cam when it gets cramped, e.i. focusing on a left middle toe in combat.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Gorgon

[Kelverin]

P.S. Finished MOTB. Pretty good. I'm going back and forth trying to figure out if I prefer MOTB or HOTU as the best NWN series expansion. It's a tough call. Still, definitely better than NWN OC, SOU, and NWN2 OC. And, trumps both KOTORs.

I really don't understand the love for HOTU???? It took the most imaginative pen and paper dungeon and dumbed it down and make it very ordinary. The dungeon tiles in NWN really hurts the visual representation of a underground experience. Kinda critical since the game is Dungeons and Dragons. Terrible game that I have yet to finish, along with the NWN OC.

 

I would go like this - MOTB best DnD game since BG2, NWN2 OC, KOTOR, SOU, HOTU,

 

 

NWN OC

 

Haven't finished KOTOR2 yet

Edited November 18, 2007 by Kelverin

[Pop]

Everybody likes HotU because it's the best of the official NWN1 content.

[Volourn]

"I really don't understand the love for HOTU????"

 

Fun combat, lots of cool (but epically over powered equipment), interesting characters, C&C, LOTS of endings, you don't have to kill the last boss to complete the game, and so on.

 

 

I agree that Undermountain wasn't done justice (espicially in some ways); but it wasn't bad.

 

 

 

"I would go like this - MOTB best DnD game since BG2, NWN2 OC, KOTOR, SOU, HOTU,

 

 

NWN OC"

 

 

I'd go like this: 1. MOTB + HOTU (tie) 2. NWN2 OC 3. NWN1 OC 4. TOEE + SOU (tie).

 

KOTOR isn't D&D (though it's D20). I'd rate it (and KOTOR2) around NWN1+2 level.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Volourn

[Gorgon]

NWN oc is pretty terrible imho, still I played all the addons so it must have done something right.

[Leferd]

I never finished anything of Neverwinter 1 except for Pirates of the Sword Coast and Shadowguard. The whole game left a bad taste in my mouth. NWN2 definitely raised the NWN experience for me, but the game's interface is still too NWN. I like MOTB's story, but I still haven't motivated myself into finishing the campaign. The underlying Auroraness of the Electron engine is just too much.

[Nightblade]

The underlying Auroraness of the Electron engine is just too much.

 

NWN Aurora was beautiful. Good animations, lots of avatar-emotions and socials. NWN2 seems to be based on the KotOR engine. Char creation, item creation, work-bench, components, auto-rez'ing, animations (or lack of such), all KotOR, no?

 

N.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Nightblade

[Pop]

Except that it was an alteration of the Aurora engine. They reused some animation and such from KOTOR2 (notably some of the H2H combat animations) but it is indeed based on the NWN engine.

[Gorth]

The underlying Auroraness of the Electron engine is just too much.

 

At least the radial menus were gone. It wasn't so much the primitive gfx that put me off NWN, as it was the story (and Aribeths voice). I wonder if I might have changed my opinion if I had waited for a later boxed set that included HoTU and just played the expansion.

 

MotB wasn't perfect, but the positive impressions far outweigh the negative ones...

 

Cons: The default camera settings, the extra game mechanism management, the party members felt oddly "detached" somehow and finally the high level play, which I liked no more than I did in Throne of Bhaal.

 

Pros: The configurability of the camera, nice story, good sound and visual work, interesting choice and consequence incidents, simplified crafting, no more forced party members, no excessive "grind" levels.

 

Probably a lot more, but being human, one seems to forget all the smaller, nice details.

[Pidesco]

The underlying Auroraness of the Electron engine is just too much.

 

NWN Aurora was beautiful. Good animations, lots of avatar-emotions and socials. NWN2 seems to be based on the KotOR engine. Char creation, item creation, work-bench, components, auto-rez'ing, animations (or lack of such), all KotOR, no?

 

N.

 

 

Aurora was a bit ugly, even for its time. However, Its problem wasn't the graphics, it was the rather awful gameplay. In my book, only allowing for the player to control only one character in a single player DnD game is one of the most idiotic design decisions of all time.

[Volourn]

Worst gameplay decision ever? Exaggeration if I ever saw one. Besdies, D&D is suoppsed to be played 1 player = 1 character. D&D tends to lose part its role-playing charm when you start allowing players to play more than 1 character. That should be reserved to more dungeon delving games. Not that I mind multi character games as evidenced of my enjoyment of the IE and GB games; but the GB games were nothing more than glorified dungeon hacks (with few exceptions), and the IE games while better in the role-playing department weren't classic D&D either.

 

Aurora's gaemplay was awesome. Some of the best gameplay ever. And, while the graphics weren't awesome; theyw ere more than solid. NWN2's graphics are better though yet some of NWN1's special effects and melee combat look and sound cooler.

 

 

"NWN2 seems to be based on the KotOR engine."

 

NWN2 is based on NWN1.