Obsidian dumbs "downer"

[Musopticon?]

Eh, just a general note here: If you already know what you are doing, pretty well versed with DnD and know how to tune your characters, aka once an Infinity/NWN-nerd, I don't think it is such a stretch of mind to imagine there being hardly any challenge in new commercial

renditions of DnD combat in the computer medium. They are, afterall, built to accomodate beginners as well.

 

Sad to say, but your experience is working against you. You have the right to complain, but I think it is just common sense to assume that you will need mods to get any kind of challenge out of Mask of the Betrayer, should you be "a veteran" already.

 

Me? I'm rather lost on DnD 3.5 and therefore NWN 2 has been delightfully challenging. I expect to be entertained by Mask's combat as well.

[Llyranor]

I too spend valuable time reading up on expansion packs of games I hate.

[Hurlshort]

I don't understand why Roshan hangs out on this board. He's started numerous negative topics about NWN2 and he gets the same reaction every time. No one is saying NWN2 is the holy grail of gaming, but most people here are fans of Obsidian. Roshan doesn't offer any constructive criticism, he just whines and whines. Seriously, why bother? I don't go hang out on a forum for poodles and constantly complain how silly they look. Stop wasting your time.

[Pop]

[roshan]

You're reaching kind of bizarre conclusions about things from what Feargus said. I think the companions in MotB are individually more well-developed than the ones in the core game. They are also (excepting a short period at the beginning) all optional. Core combat in the expansion should be a little easier overall, especially at the beginning, because people are being thrown in with epic level characters. There were battles in NWN2 that a lot of people found challenging. Take Tholapsyx, for instance. Constant Gaw tuned that battle for a long time. A lot of players and testers had a hard time with that fight. I beat her in two rounds. It's pretty hard to tune high level fights so they are fun for both the hardcore player and nubz.

 

Thats why I am disappointed - combat in the main game was already easy enough, clearly geared towards newbies. If a dragon and a giant king and his army can be defeated with absolutely no player input or a dragon can be killed within two rounds then there is something seriously wrong with the game. I want something that will require something from me other than performing mindless tedious actions. It seems that all of the design decisions regarding the campaign also seem to be newbie geared and that Obsidian went to great lenghts to make absolutely sure that even the worlds biggest idiot would win the game. The game was pretty much mistake proof to the point that you can hardly even turn in the wrong direction.

 

I'm pretty sure a magical greatsword was available in Targos and Sherincal drops Winged Blight outside of the Ice Temple. That's just off the top of my head. If people don't consider Winged Blight to be a powerful greatsword, I'm not sure what to say.

 

I probably didnt buy the greatsword in Targos because it cost too much. Winged Blight was what I was referring to - it just didnt seem like enough of a reward after going through so much of the game. Reward doesnt necessarily have to be phat lewt though - for example, in Icewind Dale 1 after clearing Kresselacks tomb there was a cool black armor to be found. It was just a normal item (although still better than anything until that point) but it still felt like quite a reward. When I found a better armor it was actually sad selling away Kresselacks one.

 

The last time I played Icewind Dale 2 though I had a good time, but I knew what to expect and was in it purely for the combat.

 

People who discount Cleaver's ability to ignore armor and shield bonuses aren't really thinking about how BAB works in D&D. It's easy to hit with the first and second attacks out of four or five, but the probability of hitting with the subsequent attacks gets pretty slim. You're at -10 on your 3rd attack, -15 on the 4th, etc.

 

Thats a good point. Where was Cleaver anyway? I thought that was the one that Sherincal dropped(wasnt she the boss at the ice temple?).

[roshan]

I don't understand why Roshan hangs out on this board. He's started numerous negative topics about NWN2 and he gets the same reaction every time. No one is saying NWN2 is the holy grail of gaming, but most people here are fans of Obsidian. Roshan doesn't offer any constructive criticism, he just whines and whines. Seriously, why bother? I don't go hang out on a forum for poodles and constantly complain how silly they look. Stop wasting your time.

 

Im not whining, I am protesting. Some things can be constructively criticized because they can be improved (such as the combat in Icewind Dale 2 - I liked the difficulty but there were times when it felt kind of hollow or pointless - and I provided some ideas for how it could be better, as there was actually potential for improvement). With other features though there is no scope for any constructive criticism. How in the world can I offer suggestions to improve forced resurrection when I simply do not like it and do not see any way for it to be tweaked that would make any sort of meaningful difference to me?

[metadigital]

Since we know nothing about upcoming Death System Revised

[Fionavar]

Permadeath has been a debatable issue I suspect since the first attempt to transfer to a digital environ from PnP - in fact I remember it filling pages on old BBS sites. I also remember that when most mainstream games that have balanced market penetration with adhering to the intent, if not the specific DnD rulesets, have often been pressured by the majority of gamers who do not want permadeath. I think meta's challenge is apt, though it does not detract from the play-feel for some, it does nonetheless illustrate the need for practical consideration when one's market is wide-spread, as opposed to niche.

[roshan]

Since we know nothing about upcoming Death System Revised™, bitching about it is stupid.

Actually Feargus' method for making death matter is really just about making time matter which is not the same thing.

I am curious as to why you think time-sensitive gaming is so unworkable. Certainly making it significantly more difficult to play if you rest into the night will have a dramatic effect on the game, even if it isn't permadeath ... and I wonder just how many people would be complaining if Obsidian implemented permadeath (in comparison to those that complain that the game isn't permadeath).

 

I think time sensitive gaming is great and workable but i dont see how it addresses some of the main problems I have with permadeath such as:

- trivializing death and thus taking tension out of combat.

- since death is the main penalty for failing at combat, combat itself is also trivialized, since there is no chance of failing

- making combat really easy

 

At best I see time sensitive gameplay as leading to people stocking a few more potions or bringing a cleric along so that they can heal instead of resting - and even that depends on how likely combat is to lead to death in the first place, and that also depends on how much time sensitive gameplay there actually is and whether there actually are consequences to missing out on this sort of gameplay.

 

Im not sure why Obsidian would choose to implement forced resurrection. At least I dont think its because of the demands of players. Thinking as a casual gamer, I dont see myself buying expansions packs. Why buy an expansion pack when you can just buy a new game with better graphics? NWN2 isnt exactly the sort of game that casual players would be attracted to anyway - theres just too much complexity in terms of the ruleset etc that would most likely turn off any casual gamers. There are many commercial releases out there much better suited to the casual gamer. I think most people buying Mask would be veterans or who are already familiar with earlier games and thus used to the idea of dying or modders who are "hardcore" enough to create modules and thus not casual gamers at all. I guess Im just too far off from Obsidians target market to understand!

[Tale]

- since death is the main penalty for failing at combat, combat itself is also trivialized, since there is no chance of failing

- making combat really easy

Considering that a large amount of "failure" at combat in CRPGs comes down to either encounters not customized for your party, a bad roll (or succession of such), or (as is to often the case) an expectation from developers that your characters have been powergamed or otherwise optimized heavily towards combat, how is substituting death for a different, yet still existant, penalty a bad idea?

 

Partial failures become a waste of time that is not desired, while still not forcing the party into a cookie cutter design specific for each encounter or the developer's explicit expectation for what your party should include. One thing I absolutely abhored about Baldur's Gate II (although, I love it so) is it expected you towards the end to practically have two fighters in your party with +5 swords. I'm playing a RPG and the only fighter I liked was Sarevok, so up until Throne of Bhaal, closest thing to a fighter I had was Jaheira and Minsc.

 

IF, just IF, D&D characters and parties were capable of overcoming any hurdles thrown at them it would be one thing, but they're not.

Edited May 29, 2007 by Tale

[Walsingham]

I've just read the article and my conclusions are totally different. It sounds pretty reasonable, all told. Although I'm not convinced I'll enjoy it, it doesn't sound dumb.

[metadigital]

There is a fine balance between making death less trivialized, with permadeath, and making the game increasingly irritating for the sake of "realism". Especially with insta-savegames and quick-reload.

[Volourn]

"not the specific DnD rulesets, have often been pressured by the majority of gamers who do not want permadeath."

 

This mythical 'majority' must be the reason why games like the BG series were so successful then. Espicially, since we're talking about a D&D game which already has a fair, balanced, and as far as its fantasy roots goes, a solid method dealing with the pitfalls of 'permenant death'. It's called healing potions, healing spells, raise spells, ressurection, and so on. This illogic is very illogical.

[J.E. Sawyer]

There are a lot of complexities in a computer implementation of D&D that go beyond what you would experience in tabletop sessions. When a character dies in a tabletop game, it's easy for the DM to track and/or gloss where that character's body and equipment are, ignoring things like encumbrance in the process. It's also easy for the DM to allow a simple exit for the party to make it back to a convenient healer.

[Cantousent]

I agree with Roshan about the way death works in NWN2. I've often said I don't like it. NWN2 had some good points and bad points for me, but my experiences with the NWN franchise has been spotty all along. Yes, I liked NWN2 better than NWN. Whatever the hell that says about either game or my tastes.

 

However, the thing is that death will be what death will be in MotB. Fretting over death and resting rules in this title doesn't make much sense because most of Obsidz resources will probably go to implementing the new stuff, such as epic rules.

 

What did I hate about NWN2? Warlocks, for one thing. Resting, for another. Talk about wasting my breath on either of those issues. Epic level characters in the expansion? What the hell? Of course, a lot of folks probably didn't get to level 20 in the original game, and so a lot of folks undoubtedly won't peg the level-o-meter in MotB either. Still... epic levels?

 

So, it's not like I'm giving NWN2 a pass here. What I am saying is that, should they deliver the goods in terms of the story, I'll be happy. If it is Planescapesque, I'll be ecstatic. If it is the spiritual successor to PS:T, then I will sing it's praises for years to come, as I have sung the praises of PS:T for some years past.

 

Now, I can't speak for combat or difficulty in MotB, but if it's essentially the same as the combat in NWN2, I'll be fine with it. With Epic level spells and feats, especially with attendant items, I'll mow over the encounters in MotB. So what? I mowed over everything in my path in KotORs one and two and the only difficulty NWN gave me (and that wasn't much) was due to the fact that I hated the henchman AI so much I soloed the whole game.

 

Your rants, Roshan, seem ridiculously long winded considering the circumstances. This isn't like the things that caused uproar before NWN2, in which I sometimes participated. This is your own personal, petty little grudge match against Obsidian.

[Tale]

Did I see a slight against Warlocks? I'll cut you. I can't play anything but, now. The only way I can is if it's something mixed with Warlock!

[Cantousent]

I hate every prestige class. Period. I despise them with a passion unmatched by mortal men. I truly loath them from the bottom of my endless soul.

 

*Ahem*

 

:Cant's taking a long breath and his blood pressure medicine icon:

 

What I was trying to say is that I've never played a prestige class in PnP or on any of the DnD computer games. Guess they're just not my cup of tea.

[Tale]

Warlocks aren't a prestige class, though!

[Volourn]

Yet, Warlcoks ar ethe worst class/prestige class ever invented!!!

[Cantousent]

Warlocks aren't a prestige class, though!

 

WhatEVER, Tale. They might as well be one.

[Tale]

Yet, Warlcoks are the MOST AWESOME CLASS EVER CREATED!

Fixed.

[kirottu]

NWN 2 was pretty hard to me. I played it through with Warlock without the "use magic thingies" skill, because I don

[Tigranes]

Game hype in this sense is entirely worthless because the same kind of comments roshan was saying was depressing, oculd be applied to Oblivion or PS:T or Fallout or TOEE or PoR2 or whatever. Once again we just have to wait and see how they did it.

 

NWN2 was decent in difficulty, for me - nothing really difficult and probably a bit too much on the easy side, but not as much as K2 and overall it was still fun to play.

 

I skipped the middle pages, but um, from the first page, and roshan's quotations, I saw nothing about how they'll make it linear? Expansion stories are nearly always linear anyway, but still.

[Atreides]

It'd be nice if the difficulty slider adjusted AI to be "smarter" in terms of item, ability, tactics and spell usage for big encounters and not just rule adjustments. If hardcore devs like JE can take down dragons in 2 rounds, I bet he has several ideas how to make crazy party vs party battles. Maybe 'Normal' difficulty on default and a 'JE challenge lulz' setting that pimps up the same encounters.

 

Btw I admit the powergamer in me loves the Craft Wand feat. My Eldritch Knight's running around casting arcane spells, taking heads off with my scythe and casting Barkskin, Call Lightning etc as needed. Plus Knock and not to mention Cure Disease and Remove Poison wands are cool too. Tasha's H.L. and Gust of Wind wands ain't half bad too. If only Body of the Sun could be a wand...

[Niten_Ryu]

Sad to say, but your experience is working against you.

 

This is true in just about every genre. I can put hardest difficulty in just about any FPS without knowing anything about the game. I probably won't die unless there's chance of being one shot or some gimmick boss fight. Thus my previous experince from all singleplayer and multiplayer FPS is working against me because it would be unrealitic to expect developers to balance game around my skill level. I haven't played PnP AD&D since 2nd edition but even experience from those days help me with in games like NWN2. And of course since I've played just about every computer RPG from last 25 years, I have bit unfair advantage.

 

These days with stupidly high budgets, developers should balance main game around newbies and casuals. This makes sure they don't get discouraged by too hard difficulty and stop playing. If they find game fun and play it thru, they might buy sequel and addon too. We hardcore players can only hope that there's few interesting and challencing optional encunters and perhaps bit higher difficulty option (that's hopefully actually tested and not just double hitpoint and double damage). Best difficulty option system that I've seen in long time was in Silent Storm - Sentinels. There you could adjust difficulty in various categories. I'd like to see similar feature in other games too.