So how buggy is NWN2?

Volourn · November 14, 2006

"Most of the time the characters are required for story purposes. Such as one character knows a back way in to a stronghold and will lead you there. Without him, you have no idea where to go. They aren't just randomly forced on you, its mostly just situations where if you wanted to go alone, then you wouldn't get very far."

No, they are forced on you. You telling me you need Neeshak when you metter her? Khelgar? Brognar? And, on and on. It's lame. Plain, and simple.

Oerwinde · November 14, 2006

Volourn said:
"Most of the time the characters are required for story purposes. Such as one character knows a back way in to a stronghold and will lead you there. Without him, you have no idea where to go. They aren't just randomly forced on you, its mostly just situations where if you wanted to go alone, then you wouldn't get very far."

No, they are forced on you. You telling me you need Neeshak when you metter her? Khelgar? Brognar? And, on and on. It's lame. Plain, and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess my JPRG background makes me not care. I'm used to it.

kumquatq3 · November 14, 2006

When they arn't forcing companions on you, they are taking them away, aka you can't pick them.

Maria Caliban · November 14, 2006

I haven't finished the game but I've only encountered a few bugs: fire beetles, stag beetles, and bombers. Depending on your definition of bug, there's also a massive one in my basement.

Invoker · November 14, 2006

I can't for the life of me get past the first act. I've rounded up all the milita and when I speak to them, they tell me to go speak to Georg. I do that. Only thing is, Georg doesn't want to speak to me. I can't advance at all so I'm stuck.

Fun, innit?

Volourn · November 14, 2006

"guess my JPRG background makes me not care. I'm used to it."

Eh? I like JRPGs just fine. In fact, I love them. But, JRPGS have never bragged about being about the type of role-playing D&D games - or 'Western RPGs' are supposed to be like. Forcing companions on players is NEVER cool when it's supposed to be about player choice.

Oh btw, The bugs keep on coming! Now, I got a major one when dealing with the Lizardfolk Chief in ch3. After beating it; it says "Do as you wish" and my only option is to press continue. After that, it no longer talks, and I am absolutely TRAPPED in a small area. R00fles! Reloading doens't help! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

And, here I thought NWN2 was a a relativley unbuggy game. Oops... That's two major bugs found in the last 24 hours including one game ender. I'

ll have to avoid that entire area now which means I'll likely lose potential allies. YAHOO!!!!!

:joy: :joy: :joy:

Tigranes · November 14, 2006

He meant that thanks to being forced this kind of stuff so often in JRPG, he doesnt mind too much anymore. Surely Volo, you are smarter than that.

But yes, the only 2 major gripes I have with NWN2 are that companions are forced (one for freaking 1/3 of the game?! you have to admit its a poor design choice even if you love the said char, Volo), and you cant attack neutrals / friendlies. You can't make any choice that the devs did not account for. Furthermore, even the quests seem to be odd; for example, in a particular quest

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, instead of doing the quest-giver's bidding I simply pickpocketed the item I wanted from her. The journal, and thus the quest-scripts never recognised this, and when it came to the trial, the scripts didnt realise that I had this item! NWN2 is much mor erestrictive than IE games when it comes to this, and this was not necessary at all. In most cases it would require very little extra scripting.

Pop · November 14, 2006

I'm sure with a few months of work modders should be able to create more playable NPCs to add to the campaign so that you can not get pidgeonholed into having Khelgar or Neeshka for 9 hours of gameplay. Given some dedicated modders, NWN2 could be expanded to at least BG's CNPC pool, where there are always 2 characters that can perform the same function. I think Dark Raven could do that well.

Now to just sit back and wonder if it'll happen

Edited November 14, 2006 by Pop

Maria Caliban · November 14, 2006

Tigranes:

"The journal, and thus the quest-scripts never recognised this, and when it came to the trial, the scripts didnt realise that I had this item!"

There's no journal entry for "I now have powder X" There's only a journal entry for the quest she gives you, which you admitted you didn't complete.

How do you know that the "scripts didn't realize" you had that item. Did you talk to Sand?

Spider · November 14, 2006

I never got a journal entry for her quest. Probably because I convinced her to give me the thing needed straight up.

Maria Caliban · November 14, 2006

My paladin thought it only right to help her.

Tigranes · November 14, 2006

Maria: This is how I realised it. Through forum searching, I discovered that if you do everything possible, Sand says "we definitely have all the evidence." I had every single thing you could get (again checked with forum searching), and yet Sand says he thinks this may do it, but he is not sure.

Yep, Marcus, Nya's corpse burials, quartermaster's log, poisoned corpse, Signet Ring of spy, Callum's testimony, etc, etc.

Anyway, as far as I could tell the "good" option was not to help the nymph; if you attack the nymph Elanee accuses it of being an abomination that should be destroyed; the goblins depend on the glowstone for survival; and Elanee doesnt want you to take it. Of course, I dont think theres a good or evil option anywhere in that quest.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Tigranes

Maria Caliban · November 14, 2006

Elanee told me that without the glowstone the goblins would be at the mercy of the spiders. So, I killed the spiders.

On the other hand, the dryad told me that the glowstone was polluting her forest or somesuch so I figured that was radioactive fallout that the poor goblins had started worshipping. I swiped it from them and ran before I had to fight.

You're right though, there wasn't a clear good or evil option available.

aVENGER · November 14, 2006

Maria Caliban said:
You're right though, there wasn't a clear good or evil option available.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, there is.

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Edited November 14, 2006 by aVENGER

CoM_Solaufein · November 14, 2006

I have not encountered any game killing bugs yet or any bugs for that matter. But I have just reached Neverwinter so I have some more playing time to go.

Gfted1 · November 14, 2006

I think I ran into my first minor bug last night. I just entered chapter one and saved those two kids in the house. Afterward when I try to talk to whatshername in the next room she says something and I have the lone choice of "continue". When I click that the dialog box just closes. Im able to continue but I hate leaving "quest" things unsolved (and not getting my reward. )

I think its because Im not patched to 1.02 but I was kinda going to wait for 1.03 because of all the "My f-ing game wont run AT ALL after 1.02" threads Ive read.

Also, occasionally, the little kid (thief) who I picked up portrait wouldnt display and Ive had some training dialog boxes open up that were just blank.

Nartwak · November 14, 2006

I too had Neeshka lift the powder from the Dryad.

Spider · November 14, 2006

Gfted1 said:
I think its because Im not patched to 1.02 but I was kinda going to wait for 1.03 because of all the "My f-ing game wont run AT ALL after 1.02" threads Ive read.

That was with the 1.02808 patch, they re-issued it as 1.02809 and then those problems should have been taken care of. Personally I never had a problem with either version though.

Deraldin · November 14, 2006

Volourn

I hit that problem in my last game also. The problem there is that the big baddy in the fight accidentally killed someone that has dialogue during that conversation, but because the character is dead, he can't respond. The only way to fix it that I know of right now is to reload and go through the fight on normal instead of hardcore. Get's ride of the mage friendly fire which should allow you to finish the fight properly.

Wistrik · November 14, 2006

On average this game isn't any more bug-infested than prior games by these folks. (Going back to Infinity engine days since I won't touch KotoR.) That said, there is a fixpack for BG2 now that attempts to address thousands of mostly minor bugs which are bugs nonetheless. Taken as a whole, the fixpack subtly improves the game and makes it seem more polished.

Back to NWN2... There are multiple textual errors, such as misspellings in NPC/Item descriptions, and conversation text not matching recorded vocals. Given developers' track record of fixing such things, I'll end up having to do it with the toolset, which isn't hard. (The toolset is a joy to use, thanks Obsidian.) They should have had me on the team to proofread their text, but oh well, my current employer benefits instead.

The AI is atrocious, and I haven't looked into it yet, but it should be easy enough to modify the scripting and the XML Behavior interface (for additional options) so as to provide more robust, and more intelligent, AI. I've resorted to telling my party to Stand Ground while my rogue goes into stealth and runs around disarming traps; otherwise the idiots will run right over a detected trap and injure themselves. Additionally, the main character will not inititate new attacks once his current foes are dead, unless someone attacks him. Thus I'm always having to tell him to attack someone. This is with Puppet Mode disabled.

Rogues 'stand up' prematurely while disarming traps and picking locks, which allows them to interrupt the process if they are attacked and return the favor. The amount of time before they 'stand up' seems to be random; I've had them stay hunched over until the progress bar reached 100%, and I've had them stand up before it got 25% complete. Certainly a bug in there somewhere.

When entering an area for the first time, it's not uncommon to see all traps detected, even if they're clear across the map.

There is a fog of war, of sorts, in that the game hides rooms you haven't found yet. But a bug can cause the game to reveal these rooms when you exit the map. I don't mind not having fog of war in the outdoor environments because line of sight is usually unobstructed. (Just as characters stand still while searching, so too can they climb a tree and scope the horizon without doing anything. That's how this game treats such activities.)

Certain combat animations aren't working. Great Cleave and Cleave, for example, often do not display; instead the monsters take damage while my character stands there. Sometimes the animations display, but usually they don't. Same goes for multiple hits per round on high level fighters. Something's fishy there.

Dialog cutscenes don't always focus on the speaker correctly. Last night we met Elanee and she initiated conversation after combat, but instead of seeing her, I was treated to a view of the blue sky. When someone else spoke, the camera corrected itself and focused on Elanee when it was again her turn to speak. (This annoyed me because I think Elanee is beautiful. )

Neeshka has no tail. I've yet to keep her in the party after reaching Neverwinter, but so far only Khelgar has mentioned a tail. Neeshka never did.

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In Neverwinter, Ammon starts offing nobles while searching for a shard. The first noble he kills is mentioned by name ('Lord F....." I can't recall the name off the top of my head) by Cormick and later by Duncan. However the middle of the conversation with Sand, they start calling him 'Lord Gentry', and this glitch carries through to Captain Brelaina.

Sometimes NPCs who are on the move will stop for cutscene dialog, say their piece, and then run out of view of the camera before they finish speaking. One example of this is Amie Fern in the tutorial when we're running over to the oversize hog (or maybe it was the man in green).

Perhaps it's by design, but hats/helmets placed upon the heads of joinable NPCs will not display on their heads, although they'll get the bonuses. Not that I mind looking at Elanee's beautiful hair, but I thought she'd look good in a wizard hat. (You can buy four specialty hats from a merchant in Highcliff.)

Pathfinding has bugs. If you command a character to attack an enemy and another NPC (regardless of allegiance) stands between them, the character may or may not path around the NPC to get to the enemy. This seems to be hit and miss 50/50, as it works sometimes and fails other times. I've also told a character to run to a point on the street, and instead of taking the broad street to get there, he paths around a stack of crates and other obstacles. He'll even reverse course to do this, oddly enough. Finally, NPCs will warp from place to place while traveling, even if they didn't get stuck on anything. I've had my character suddenly jump forward or backward, and last night he even managed to land a blow on a shadow priest who was clear across the screen, before one or the other finally warped to the right place. This kind of lag is usually expected with an online connection to a game server, but is ridiculous in a singleplayer environment.

There are collision issues too. Characters can get stuck on each other and will humorously vibrate in place or look like they're having a spastic attack. If a character has ranks in Tumble and this happens in combat, you'll be treated to a stream of *Tumble* messages floating up from the character's head. If DebugMode is active, you'll occasionally see action overflow messages displayed in the text window when an NPC gets stuck.

Furthermore, weapons do not collide with objects outside of combat/bash and will humorously run characters through while they're standing around or emoting. Finally, doors are considered ethereal once opened; characters will freely attack and walk through open doors as if they aren't there. These things may have been done for performance reasons, but it hurts realism.

It is hard to click on a target NPC during combat because the hotspot is typically much smaller than the creature's outline, and isn't always located near the character's 'center'. Thus I have to pause the game to target reliably with the mouse, otherwise my character usually runs behind the creature I tried to target. (Do this sometime, pause and move your mouse over a creature and notice how small the hotspot is compared to the overall creature outline. Sometimes there is a huge difference. By 'hotspot' I'm referring to the location where the cursor changes to a sword or a dialog icon.

Joinable NPCs don't keep their skill assignments. I can assign skills all I want, but when they level up, the skill points I previously assigned have vanished into thin air. Thus I gave up and just click Recommend to get past the skill assignment screen. At least they keep the feats you assign to them.

The user notes portion of the journal is difficult to edit thanks to a very rudimentary text editor, and tends to disappear/reappear so I can't reliably keep notes in it. This is a shame because I used this heavily in NWN to keep track of puzzle solutions and whatnot. Now I'm back to writing notes in a notebook.

A few NPCs with dialog have a blank state just before their dialog terminates, so you see an empty box with a Continue button in it. Doesn't break anything, but it's an extra click to get rid of a dialog box that should have already disappeared.

The silver sword always replays its re-assembly animation when you enter an area while wielding it. Though the effect was cool the first time, it's unnecessary for the remainder of the game, and a bit unrealistic. Does my character's will waver whenever he steps through a door?

Not a bug, per se, but I wish it was overhauled. There is no way in the nine hells that I would ever, ever, invite someone like Bishop into my party, much less my stronghold. Thus the whole deal with his betrayal is a forced plot element. The final dialog with Garius was ridiculous, making wild, untrue assumptions about things that never took place. Ugh. Talk about breaking immersion. I place this above even the weak AI in terms of annoyance. The campaign would be so much better with a BG2 party system and no forced involvements.

The influence system is nice, but characters are way too picky. I don't start hating someone just because they disagree with my point of view, and people who do display this behavior are often berated by their community. So why do our party members behave so childishly? Save the influence adjustments for major events and stop applying penalties to silly disagreements. If they don't like how I do things, they shouldn't have forced their way into my party!

Okay so I advanced from bugs to design issues. These are things I'd like to see changed, but hold out little hope for. I can use the toolset to write my own module and have more realistic party control, but I can't fix code-based errors in the engine without breaking the EULA. " (Not that I'd want to wade through all that bloated code anyway.)

I'm hoping most of these things will make it into the next major patch.

Edit: added AI note about main character, corrected misspelling.

Edit: added spolier tags. :angry:

Edited November 14, 2006 by metadigital

Deraldin · November 14, 2006

Nice post. Brought up some issues in there that I can't say I ever really thought of when the happened, but I can see where you are coming from with the complaints.

Jorian Drake · November 14, 2006

Deraldin said:
Nice post. Brought up some issues in there that I can't say I ever really thought of when the happened, but I can see where you are coming from with the complaints.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yep, a good post, and maybe dev-s will look at it too.

Sand · November 14, 2006

More than likely. So far I am pleased with Obsidian's support of the game.

Jorian Drake · November 14, 2006

Sand said:
More than likely. So far I am pleased with Obsidian's support of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

agreed

Oerwinde · November 14, 2006

Wistrik said:

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In Neverwinter, Ammon starts offing nobles while searching for a shard. The first noble he kills is mentioned by name ('Lord F....." I can't recall the name off the top of my head) by Cormick and later by Duncan. However the middle of the conversation with Sand, they start calling him 'Lord Gentry', and this glitch carries through to Captain Brelaina.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This I believe isn't a glitch, but a storytelling problem.

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So how buggy is NWN2?

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