death rules

[Volourn]

With the awesome trilogy that were the NW2 NWVault Interview we got a lot of information about NWN2 from Mr. Maximus. Most of the info was on the positive side; but since we are 'netters and we always seem to focus on the negative I decided for this thread at least focus on what may be considered a negative.

 

Obsidian has decided to do a KOTOR series style 'death rule' where 'dead characters' are considered unconcious unless there's a total party wipe out (TPWO).

 

The question for this poll is simple enough: What, amongst the choices, is your favorite death rule? ?

 

This is so Obsidian can see what their TRUE fanboys (Obsidian board posters) think. I'd have done it on the BIO boards but they are evil and don't allow actual polls to easily keep track of stuff.

 

Enjoy. :D

Edited May 23, 2006 by Volourn

[Darque]

Dead is dead, zed.

[Cantousent]

The bio boards are a bit sterile.

 

Anyhow, I voted for the DnD rules. The fact is, I'm used to them and I find them familiar. I'm also loathe to use the "other" option.

 

However, I think each game should use the system that makes the most sense. For example, I thought the way the design team used the concept of death and immortality (not Godhood) as part of the story was inspired in PS:T. However, clearly it's not a model that suits every game.

 

So, if they make the rules fit the game then I'll be fine. I never really minded the way KotOR handled death. I don't imagine it will be a big deal for me.

[Volourn]

"concept of death and immortality (not Godhood)"

 

Picky, picky. So, so, picky. Almost as picky as me. I like it.

 

 

"The bio boards are a bit sterile."

 

No. This is silly talk that is also unrelated to the topic at hand.

 

 

"So, if they make the rules fit the game then I'll be fine."

 

Good. Then you agree that since NWN2 is using D&D rules it should continue to that trend and use D&D death rules.

 

 

"I never really minded the way KotOR handled death."

 

I didn't mind it all that much either even if it's ultimately a 'poor' way of handling death. It is fine ... in KOTOR... unacceptable in a D&D game. :ph34r:

 

 

Edited May 23, 2006 by Volourn

[Bokishi]

I like the one where you lose all your health and then you die.

[Ahkan Stormforge]

I'm not that big of a fan of the KotOR-style dying system. I understand that they had to do it for the KotOR series since resurrection isn't really a part of the Star Wars universe (aside from some extremely rare circumstances, i.e. massive Sith rituals, etc.) and having permanent, un-recoverable death would just be too penalizing.

 

D&D, on the other hand, has all sorts of resurrection spells readily available to the PCs (and also relatively commonly at temples) so I really don't see the need for the "death only upon TPWO" mechanic. If you fell unconscious at 0 HP and *then* the enemy could perform some type of coup de grace to initiate death, I would understand, but it was always a head scratcher to me why the enemy would leave all these prone bodies of their enemy laying around untouched. I also had a problem in BG where death of the main character intiated an immediate game over since then my next question was always, "Why can't the rest of my party take me to a temple and have Raise Dead cast on me again? "

 

I think the D&D bleed rules got it the most right.

[Llyranor]

I'm all for the DnD rules too. Bleeding is pretty fun. Not a big fan of resurrection crap, though.

[Cantousent]

Yeah, I'm not big on resurrection or raise dead. I think it has a place, but it should never be common. It shouldn't be cheap, either. Most of all, it should be something a cleric only casts in the most dire of circumstances.

[Spider]

Hmm, tough one for me. I'm a bit conflicted. Which is why I haven't voted in the poll.

 

The thing is, I really hate my party members dying. If a party member goes down in a fight and I don't have any way to cast an immediate resurrection spell, then it's instant reload. So I should be all for the TWOP system.

 

Only I'm not. I think it's cheesy and removes the challenge from the game a bit. If I screw up, I want there to be concequences, even if that concequence is only a reload. I'll still have the option not to. I actually liked playing Fallout Tactics in ironman mode where any casualty simply had to be accepted (because there was no way I'd restart one of those levels if I didn't have to). Although I didn't like it enough to voluntarily imose such a system on myself unless I get some kind of reward in-game for doing so.

 

So I guess it comes down to bleeding vs just dying. And here I really can't make up my mind. I like bleeding in theory, but in ToEE it kept frustrating me. Specifically, it was all the idiotic opponents that kept attacking bleeding companions that bugged me. Why someone would keep hitting someone who is already down rather than they guys that are still trying to kill you is beyond me.

 

But in the end I'm leaning towards bleeding anyway, but I'm still undecided.

[alanschu]

I try to play ironman now as well Spider. I find it to be a bit more fun for some reason.

[Tigranes]

In BG series, the main character could not be resurrected: spawns of Bhaal who have a very high concentration of Bhaal's essence have their corporeal form disintegrate upon death, a la Sarevok. Therefore if YOU die once, it's over. Also, I think they still intend you to play the game from the POV of the protagonist: so that you as a player could be watching your party members die then resurrect them, but when the arrow hits you then the screen should go black.

 

I am fine with anything except KOTOR-style dumbdowns, there's really no excitement to already-easy battles because there's no risk. You never lose anything unless you have to reload. IE games were good because there was always a chance that you could do something stupid (or get a bad roll) and have a character clean chopped off.

[Atreides]

We need the option of disabling the KOTOR death rule. I think it's a fair tradeoff that would satisfy most people.

[LadyCrimson]

Since (PC) games these days have a save-almost-anytime/reload-anytime feature, dead should be dead and either require spells/temples whatever, since if you don't like something and want to do it better, well, just reload. If you haven't saved in 3 hours or don't want to take up inventory/skill space with res. spells etc. that's your fault. I do, however, like it when the dead can be automatically 'carried' around till you trek to a temple, ala the Might & Magic series method.

 

That's for the more detailed RPG's. Action-RPG's are totally different and I don't really care how they do it in those.

 

Edit - actually, in M&M, party members did fall unconcious, but they could also take more damage (radial dmg from spells say) while in that state as a fight continued around them, and then die even so. I kinda liked that aspect. But being unconcious forever w/no chance of dying...eh...worked in Kotor2 but it's not very interesting.

Edited May 23, 2006 by LadyCrimson

[Pidesco]

We need the option of disabling the KOTOR death rule.  I think it's a fair tradeoff that would satisfy most people.

 

 

Seconded.

[ramza]

J.E. Sawyer was reading this thread and didn't post anything. So here you go, no changes will be made...

 

Since it's a NWN game, the most logical thing would be to have the NWN1 style of death (with respawning, etc). The thing is that I have never used that feature (I prefer to re-load). Personally, the way one died in the BG series was more appealing to me.

[Tigranes]

I thought they said they were using KOTOR deaths.

[alanschu]

We need the option of disabling the KOTOR death rule.  I think it's a fair tradeoff that would satisfy most people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

KOTOR deaths make more sense when characters are very intertwined with the story.

 

It makes sense, given that from my observations, most people just reload after losing a party member anyways.

[ramza]

I thought they said they were using KOTOR deaths.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When I said that probably no changes would be made, I meant that they intended to use the KOTOR death system despite the fact that many fans complain about it.

[Ummi]

DnD rules. PC death should not be game over. As long as there's somebody alive in the party who can rez you if you're dead or heal if incapacitated you should be able to continue. Such rules would make most sense in a DnD game IMO.

[mkreku]

Die at zero hitpoints. Although I quite liked the system in Wasteland where you were injured for a while and, if untreated, you went from injured, to seriously injured to critically injured to mortally injured to death. Permanent death. Kind of like the D&D, I guess, but the D&D always felt.. unnatural to me. Too strict. And I hate resurrection!

[ramza]

No, the D&D death rules (this whole wounded, unconscious system when you have 0 HP) are stupid. You die or you do not die. It should be as simple as that. If you die, you can always cast a ressurection spell or use a ressurection rod. But you SHOULD die when you reach 0. In my own p&p rules, a character falls unconscious when his HP gets between 0 and 10, after the opponent has striked him (the opponent must have the Deathblow feat to do so, however). Then, it is up to the opponent to finish up the character or leave him agonizing.

 

Note: I have somewhat changed the Deathblow feat. The character's opponent falls automatically unconscious if the character reduces his HP below 10. Moreover, if the opponent fails a fortitude save, he will start bleeding, and losing 1HP per round.

[Atreides]

KOTOR deaths make more sense when characters are very intertwined with the story.

Good point.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I like the BG series of death. You die, game over.

 

Or restart a previous saved game.

[Hassat Hunter]

0HP = dead.

 

An alternative could be 0HP=onconscious, but then the enemies should try to make a hit... and one hit should splatter their brains over the floor...

[Walsingham]

I like the system in Aliens, the pnp game. Huge hit location/penetration tables. I liked it because suddenly you were, like, "Ow, my spleen!" rather than "Huh, I lost ten hp".