Magic System Discussion

[Gorth]

All magic users should be burned at the stake.

 

Problem solved

[Volourn]

"sleeping every 2 minutes while in the midst of battle"

 

If you have to sleep every 2 minutes you arne't playing intelligently and/or your DM (and this includes the silly NWN OC rules or even other D&D PC games) didn't plan the adventure enocunters properly.

 

Next exuse... so I can destroy it.

 

Thank you, and have a nice day.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I see a lot of accusations of me being stupid, and how "unbalanced" D&D magic; but have yet to see any proof of the latetr; and the former has been known for almost 3 decades so nothing new there.

I didn't say either of these.

 

Drakron has alreaydd ealt with magic missile. It's very easy to counter with another level 1 spell as well as tons of other spells.

If you have the prescience to cast it. In pen and paper games, the number of times I've seen wizards/sorcerers get off a shield spell when they need it has been low -- whether they were enemies or PCs. The spell only lasts a minute a level, so a caster is almost never just "walking around" with it up. If a wizard puts it up, opposing casters often detect that it was cast and either a) target others with their magic missiles b) target the caster with other spells or c) cast from the direction opposite their shield.

 

Mana is about spmaming spells at your whim with pretty much no limit. Even Drakron's examaple of SW while tolerable is not that impressive.

Mana is about having a common pool of energy from which a variety of effects are drawn. Specific implementations of mana systems don't discredit the type of system itself.

 

D&D magic is plainly better because as a wizard you actually have to think and use your intelligence - obviously something that many abhor doing.

A lot of times, the challenges of an adventure are unknown until they are encountered. That's why it's an "adventure" and not a plodding path through predictable encounters. A D&D wizard can plan for encounters for hours and still be caught completely unprepared by what awaits him or her in the session.

 

Go figure. It's also very logical due to how the D&D magic ethos works.

The system mechanics fit how the designers built the cosmology of the D&D universe. Not exactly an awesome or even difficult task.

[Volourn]

"I didn't say either of these."

 

Never said you did; but unlike us normal pukes; you are above simple name calling.

 

 

"If you have the prescience to cast it. In pen and paper games, the number of times I've seen wizards/sorcerers get off a shield spell when they need it has been low -- whether they were enemies or PCs. The spell only lasts a minute a level, so a caster is almost never just "walking around" with it up. If a wizard puts it up, opposing casters often detect that it was cast and either a) target others with their magic missiles b) target the caster with other spells or c) cast from the direction opposite their shield."

 

All true; but it still useful to have as since a magic missle spell is more dnagerous to a mage in a party than it is to a warrior. The fact you got the opposing mage to change targets is already a good thing. And, that's if he passes the spellcraft check to detemrine which spell is being cast (more than likely for any wizard worth his beans; but not an absolute given). And, like I said, there are tons of other ways to deal with magic missle. Shield is just the easiest and most absic way since it's also a 1st level spell. Remember, that unlike PC d&D games, your typical pnp D&D game is not going to have lots of battles during one day unless the campaign s REALLY, REALLY combat heavy so not being able to cast your sheild spell as soon as you wake up isn't too bad anyways.

 

 

"Mana is about having a common pool of energy from which a variety of effects are drawn. Specific implementations of mana systems don't discredit the type of system itself."

 

Maybe. But, everything cna look good in theory; but in practice I have yet to see personally a mana magic system that gives the versality that people brag about and still keep the spam a spell under complete control. Until then, I'll contninue to have my doubts when hearing people praise it.

 

 

"lot of times, the challenges of an adventure are unknown until they are encountered. That's why it's an "adventure" and not a plodding path through predictable encounters. A D&D wizard can plan for encounters for hours and still be caught completely unprepared by what awaits him or her in the session."

 

True, and false. Sure, adventiures are often unpreditcable. Afterall, in theory, that's what makes them most interesting. Of course, that's why scroll creation was invented by some know it all wizard all those eons ago. Scroll crafting is rather cheap (too cheap almost, imo) so you can use that to make sure you have at least a few copies of those odd spells that rarely come into play but when they do are very useful ( water breathing one example of this), and a few extra combat spells just in case you do run out of your spells.

 

 

"The system mechanics fit how the designers built the cosmology of the D&D universe. Not exactly an awesome or even difficult task."

 

Maybe so; but it is still very logical; and still gives a wizard (and other casters) a lot of freedom to play their character as they see fit without completely free reign to spam spells like mana systems do.

[Astatine]

A mana system doesn't allow wizards to "spam spells" if you judge the available mana quantity so that you can't cast any more magic with it than you can with a D&D style spell slot system (in fact, with a mana system the total amount of magic castable per day should be somewhat less to make up for the fact that it's more flexible and you're likely to use more of your available spells than in a spell slot system).

 

(Note that I refer to "amount of magic" rather than "number of spells". Clearly your average mana system will allow you to cast many more low-level spells than, say, the D&D spell slot system will; however, those many low-level spells are no more powerful than a single high-level one that costs the same amount of mana unless your ruleset is broken, so it hardly deserves the label "spamming").

 

What mana systems do do is seriously reduce player frustration (and therefore increase the fun factor) for most people. Having no appropriate spells to hand in many situations despite a perfectly reasonable spell selection, and having lots of wasted spells at the end of every day, is very annoying. My gaming group has played D&D with both the standard spell slot system and with the spellpoints system from Unearthed Arcana and these days we won't even consider starting a new adventure using the standard spell slot rules. And we reckon the spellpoint system in Unearthed Arcana is reasonably well balanced.

 

Must give the recharge magic system (as published in the same book) a go at some point, though.

[Ellester]

A mana system definitely is depressing (not many games up to this point have made a good mana system that wasn

[Monte Carlo]

If you get attacked by wondering monsters

 

I'm intrigued. If you were attacked by wondering monsters, presumably you'd get a distraction bonus. Depending, of course, what they were wondering about.

 

For example, an orc wondering about what he was having for lunch might only attract a -1 distraction penalty on his attack roll.

 

OTOH, let us imagine an evil fighter henchman seriously wondering about why that ugly barbarian has been promoted above him by his evil wizard boss might get a whopping -4.

 

The possibilities are endless. If I were Evil Dungeon Overlord I'd put up notices to warn monsters not to wonder whilst on patrol.

 

Lastly, gelatinous cubes and rust monsters aren't smart enough to wonder about anything much and do not attract a distraction penalty.

 

Cheers

MC

[knightsubzero]

A mana based system is fine if you cant just refill it with a potion.

 

like warcraft 2's mana system (yes strategy blah blah) it simply recharged over time there is no potions to top it up therefore there is a limit to how many spells you can cast.

 

if done right it can work

 

i say lose some as many DnD restrictions as possible.

[Drakron]

Sawyer my point is the magic missile is not that mush powerful, it can be offset by a simple spell of the same level.

 

Also I seen a lot more broken spells in D&D, I remenber a druid spell that was worded in such a way it end up being a "Save and die" spell.

 

We cannot say D&D spells are broken, I can point out "Physical Shield" of Fable (since cRPGs were brought up) is a hell of a broken spell, having it on means no worry over being knocked out and in efect making the mana bar a second health bar.

[Memengwa]

If you get attacked by wondering monsters

 

I'm intrigued. If you were attacked by wondering monsters, presumably you'd get a distraction bonus. Depending, of course, what they were wondering about.

 

For example, an orc wondering about what he was having for lunch might only attract a -1 distraction penalty on his attack roll.

 

OTOH, let us imagine an evil fighter henchman seriously wondering about why that ugly barbarian has been promoted above him by his evil wizard boss might get a whopping -4.

 

The possibilities are endless. If I were Evil Dungeon Overlord I'd put up notices to warn monsters not to wonder whilst on patrol.

 

Lastly, gelatinous cubes and rust monsters aren't smart enough to wonder about anything much and do not attract a distraction penalty.

 

Cheers

MC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now, that's funny

 

But please don't laugh over us poor outlandish people...

[~Di]

I like mana-based games. I like non-D&D games. I'm looking forward to Dragon Age.

 

Of course, I'm looking forward to NWN2 too... although it will be stuck with the old D&D ruleset that I have come to understand fairly well, but still find to be... lacking.

 

Two hopefully excellent games on the horizon. The FAR horizon, unfortunately. And so I wait...

[J.E. Sawyer]

Sawyer my point is the magic missile is not that mush powerful, it can be offset by a simple spell of the same level.

And, with a few other rare exceptions, that is the only counter to it.

 

Also I seen a lot more broken spells in D&D

Okay, and?

 

We cannot say D&D spells are broken, I can point out "Physical Shield" of Fable (since cRPGs were brought up) is a hell of a broken spell

How does that lessen the inflexibility of D&D's magic system?

[caesarbear]

Rhomal was right, the Shadowrun Magic system is a great mana system.

 

My biggest problem with D&D magic is the illogical way casters "forget" spells all of a sudden. It's very contrived. D&D may still be king but it's old and decrepit.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...magic sucks anyway; so who cares...stop bein' such a bunch o' tree-huggin' pansy-arses an' pick up an Axe an' start swingin'...that's DnD!!...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[J.E. Sawyer]

The fact you got the opposing mage to change targets is already a good thing.

One could argue that the fact that I got you to waste a spell slot on shield is a good thing. As a player and a DM, I've won more than a few battles by provoking a round of buffs, retreating, waiting, and returning to really start the battle.

 

And, like I said, there are tons of other ways to deal with magic missle.

No, not really. You can

 

a) Not be seen

b) Wear a brooch of shielding

c) Cast shield

d) Employ a very small handful of other tactics that replicate these effects.

 

The list really isn't very long. That's why people use it so much.

 

Remember, that unlike PC d&D games, your typical pnp D&D game is not going to have lots of battles during one day unless the campaign s REALLY, REALLY combat heavy so not being able to cast your sheild spell as soon as you wake up isn't too bad anyways.

It's much easier to use shield in a PC RPG because you can usually anticipate battle and you can really anticipate it on a reload. DMs are also much more capable of adapting to D&D tactics than a computer.

 

Maybe. But, everything cna look good in theory; but in practice I have yet to see personally a mana magic system that gives the versality that people brag about and still keep the spam a spell under complete control. Until then, I'll contninue to have my doubts when hearing people praise it.

The theory is pretty simple. Reduce the power of all available spells by about one or two equivalent "levels". Allow the wizard access to more of them. Give them all mana costs, with enough of a pool to cast four or five in an hour at first level.

 

If a D&D wizard started with a set of four or five equivalent 0-level spells and could do that, I think that would be great. The wizard would be unable to cast spider climb and immediately climb better than the party rogue. The wizard would be unable to cast magic missile and unerringly hit a guy at 100 ft. for more base damage than a dagger. And instead of balancing that by saying, "Well, he can only do X of those at a time N times a day," you balance it by saying that they can't do any task as well, with magic, as the mundane specialist is capable of doing it. If the wizard wanted the equivalent of a D&D magic missile, allow them to use a basic attack with mana power-ups, like the L5R "raises". It would (or could) blow their pool for a long time, and that's their cost.

 

In my opinion, anything that helps a wizard use magic more often and in more ways without allowing them to overshadow the core capabilities of other classes is a good thing.

[Drakron]

D&D system is inflexible for wizards in relation to what spells they can cast, it requires wizards to prepare each day and have scrolls and wands as backup.

 

True it sucks to not have a spell prepared to deal with a certain situation but then again in "3.5" we have that new "damage resistence" materials that must really piss off fighters (not that I know, only experiance I have with 3.5 is ToEE game).

 

I am not saying D&D system is the best but its not the worst, I could come up with a "mana" system tied with a vitality system (like Star Wars d20, I really like their vitality/wound system) but in the end it just more rolls to be made and more things to keep tracking off ... perhaps its not much of a issue with cRPGs since rolls are done in the spot.

[Lady Evenstar]

But, there are no mana potions lying around everywhere where you can cast an unlimited number of a single spell (usually your best spell) per day. If you use up all your sorcerers spells for that level during a day, then you

[Cantousent]

If you get attacked by wondering monsters

 

I'm intrigued. If you were attacked by wondering monsters, presumably you'd get a distraction bonus. Depending, of course, what they were wondering about.

 

For example, an orc wondering about what he was having for lunch might only attract a -1 distraction penalty on his attack roll.

 

OTOH, let us imagine an evil fighter henchman seriously wondering about why that ugly barbarian has been promoted above him by his evil wizard boss might get a whopping -4.

 

The possibilities are endless. If I were Evil Dungeon Overlord I'd put up notices to warn monsters not to wonder whilst on patrol.

 

Lastly, gelatinous cubes and rust monsters aren't smart enough to wonder about anything much and do not attract a distraction penalty.

 

Cheers

MC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hahahahaha! Monte strikes again!

 

I especially like the evil henchman wondering about his promotion and the the gelatinous cube. Maybe the cube would wonder why he's not a gelatinous glob or some such.

 

Anyhow, I can see making the players search for a couple of hours to figure out the enigmatic sign only to let them know, in the end, that it tells the monsters not to wonder... and to stay off the grass.

[mkreku]

I love threads like these where Volourn gets shred to tears and stomped into the ground.. but doesn't realize it!

 

Keep it coming, it is highly amusing

 

Uhm.. On-topic: I prefer mana based spell systems (the few times I play a magic user) because I hate planning ahead. That simple.

[Nightwolf]

Make no mistake about it; I am of course getting both NWN2 and DA and will beat both games. The problem is I have beaten NWN a few dozen times in SP and played MP quite a bit since it arrived. I have no problems with the resting required to cast spells, and like having a fighter do the dirty work.

 

I enjoyed Diablo2 quite a bit online, even though it had mana. I just think it's stupid the mana are "generic power", or something. Why would a barbarian need the same mana to use the whirlwind attack as the sorcereress need to cast a fireball?

 

From what I know of DA, it can be brilliant. Maybe even better than NWN2. I'm just saying the mana-system drags it down.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Bah. I hate rules... towards the end of my P&P career Id just write a description of my character and let the GMn handle absolutely everything that had to do with game mechanics.

[Volourn]

"My biggest problem with D&D magic is the illogical way casters "forget" spells all of a sudden."

 

Huh? It's very logical why it happens. There's a reason why they have to study their spellbook everyday.

 

 

"love threads like these where Volourn gets shred to tears and stomped into the ground.. but doesn't realize it!"

 

Ahh. I love when trolls enter threads, and don't even add anything to it except to flame their betters. R00fles!

 

 

"One could argue that the fact that I got you to waste a spell slot on shield is a good thing. As a player and a DM, I've won more than a few battles by provoking a round of buffs, retreating, waiting, and returning to really start the battle."

 

Yeah, that's most likely because your oppostion (*ie. either the players or DM) were stupid enough to let you get away with such strategy. You mean your enemies didn't chase you down? That just seems silly.

 

 

 

"No, not really. You can

 

a) Not be seen

b) Wear a brooch of shielding

c) Cast shield

d) Employ a very small handful of other tactics that replicate these effects."

 

*sigh*

 

Just off the top of my head you can also do the following which your d does cover but way more than just a handful

 

a) minor globe of invulnerbility

 

b) spell resistance through natural ability (very rare for PCs unless the camapiagn allows for drow), spells, or items (also should be extremely rare)

 

c) interrupt the caster

 

 

Not exactly a few ways do counter the spell...

 

 

"It's much easier to use shield in a PC RPG because you can usually anticipate battle and you can really anticipate it on a reload. DMs are also much more capable of adapting to D&D tactics than a computer."

 

For, the most aprt, a PC party should be be able to expect and prepare for a battle in pnp. Why? The area should give a hint. If you are in the middle of a dungeon you should always be ready to start casting and swiing, if youa re enter your main quarry's lair/home; be prepared, if youa re in town; you *usually* are safe so you don't have to worry about it as much. If youa re travelling long distances, most things won't be able to sneak up on you simly since it's much easier to see far in the distance giving you time to prepare. Only at night are you in any type of jeopary of being surprised but that should be even limited if prepared with guards, dfensive spells like alarm, a nice fire though not always wise to have one) or light source, etc. Only with teleporting /invisible wizard or sneaky thieves should you even worry then. An unprepared group will have more things to worry about than a simple magic missle.

 

I'm not saying magic missle is useless. It's very useful. But, it's not the be all end all of spells.

 

 

"The theory is pretty simple. Reduce the power of all available spells by about one or two equivalent "levels". Allow the wizard access to more of them. Give them all mana costs, with enough of a pool to cast four or five in an hour at first level.

 

If a D&D wizard started with a set of four or five equivalent 0-level spells and could do that, I think that would be great. The wizard would be unable to cast spider climb and immediately climb better than the party rogue. The wizard would be unable to cast magic missile and unerringly hit a guy at 100 ft. for more base damage than a dagger. And instead of balancing that by saying, "Well, he can only do X of those at a time N times a day," you balance it by saying that they can't do any task as well, with magic, as the mundane specialist is capable of doing it. If the wizard wanted the equivalent of a D&D magic missile, allow them to use a basic attack with mana power-ups, like the L5R "raises". It would (or could) blow their pool for a long time, and that's their cost.

 

In my opinion, anything that helps a wizard use magic more often and in more ways without allowing them to overshadow the core capabilities of other classes is a good thing."

 

I see. You see magic as just a simple replacement of weapons and other "real" thigs. I see it different. It should be special, i think. It should go beyond the usual into the abnormal; but also not be so freeform that a wizard can cast with impunity which is whre spell slots have their strengths as well as spell components and xp penalty for some spells as well. I don't want a wizard to be basically be someone who weilds a magic missle like some common dagger. That is just plain boring to me, and ruins the whole point of magic being wonderous.

 

 

I should I, I could live with a 'man system' that allows a spellcaster to cast a spell of their choosing each day 9depending on their level) as long as the mana point pool makes sense, doens't simply regenerate over minutes/hours and the wizard cna only regain them through rest. It wouldn't be my favorite system; but I could accept it as an alternative. Sadly, the majority of mana systems simply don't do that.

[Ellester]

Bah. I hate rules... towards the end of my P&P career Id just write a description of my character and let the GMn handle absolutely everything that had to do with game mechanics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You would have loved 1st ED d&d then, as there weren

[Ellester]

But, there are no mana potions lying around everywhere where you can cast an unlimited number of a single spell (usually your best spell) per day. If you use up all your sorcerers spells for that level during a day, then you

[Phosphor]

Thread title changed to more accurately reflect the thread topic.