The All Things Political Topic

[uuuhhii]

sadly this will not be the end of civility politic

it will continue to plague usa

[Sarex]

5 hours ago, Gorth said:

Even if the crime is committed in the past, can the president pardon it if a sentence hasn't been passed yet? I.e. not "officially" a crime yet?

He pardon his son for any crimes he may have committed in the past, known or unknown. Tbh, I would just wait a couple of years, I'm sure they could nail him on something new, he seems like the type.

Edited December 3 by Sarex

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, pmp10 said:

Sure but people were generally pardoned for specific crimes.
Even Trump stuck to that.

I think the only other person to get 'any crimes included' package was Nixon.

I did do a quick google search on the types of crimes. The "gotcha" seems to be its limited to Federal Crimes. I.e. if he is sentenced for violating state laws, his pardons wont work

Meybe he'll end up with local jail time some day...

 

[Malcador]

Trump watching this closely -   https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/south-korea-martial-law-1.7399501

 

[HoonDing]

Well, that was unexpected.

But, then again, not really. The enemy is on the right.

[Hurlshort]

This South Korean story is crazy. Hopefully it gets resolved peacefully. Seems like a desperate power grab by an outgoing president, but I can't say I'm an expert on South Korean politics.

[Also gorgon]

Is it a stunt ?

I mean the whole of parliament voted for the lifting of martial law. It seems a bit flimsy doesn't it. 

[Hurlshort]

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/42549609/inside-san-jose-state-university-2024-volleyball-season-gender-fairness-safety

Pretty detailed breakdown about the controversy surroundingy alma mater. Spoiler alert, they ran the data and the transgender player doesn't hit harder. She isn't even in the top 150 in the country.

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/42549609/inside-san-jose-state-university-2024-volleyball-season-gender-fairness-safety

Pretty detailed breakdown about the controversy surroundingy alma mater. Spoiler alert, they ran the data and the transgender player doesn't hit harder. She isn't even in the top 150 in the country.

Yes I read this statistic about her not hitting that hard

But thats not the legitimate debate, its about fairness in womens sports and the levels of elevated testosterone that intersex athletes can and do have 

Unfortunately transphobia is one of the reasons for this outrage but thats not the real concern, the Lia Thomas story is more accurate 

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

" Just how much of an advantage did Lia Thomas possesses over biological females? The numbers paint a clear picture. The fact that the University of Pennsylvania swimmer soared from a mid-500s ranking (554th in the 200 freestyle; all divisions) in men’s competition to one of the top-ranked swimmers in women’s competition tells the story of the unfairness which unfolded at the NCAA level."

Its really about fairness for female athletes who should be able to only compete against other female  athletes who have the same levels of testosterone

Most intersex athletes have natural elevated testosterone, its not there fault because they were born that way but it doesnt mean they should be competing in womens sports events where this makes a difference around performance 

 

 

[Malcador]

Hama fallen to HTS, that was fast.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Hama fallen to HTS, that was fast.

Yeah, without the previous degrees of support from Russia, Iran and Hezbollah things are not looking good for Assad 

Hopefully he  falls this time but its too early to predict

 

[HoonDing]

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

[majestic]

"The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy." -- Drago Museveni

[uuuhhii]

france finally have one real chance to improve

but macron determine to destroy it

 

[Zoraptor]

If the government fails Macron gets to put it a technocratic one by fiat and essentially rule by decree for a year before new elections. That's every 'moderate' centrist who only has their country's interest at heart's wet dream.

[HoonDing]

If only he were 20" taller. Maybe then he could make "l'état" le sien.

[Chairchucker]

On 12/5/2024 at 4:52 PM, BruceVC said:

Yes I read this statistic about her not hitting that hard

But thats not the legitimate debate, its about fairness in womens sports and the levels of elevated testosterone that intersex athletes can and do have 

Unfortunately transphobia is one of the reasons for this outrage but thats not the real concern, the Lia Thomas story is more accurate 

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

" Just how much of an advantage did Lia Thomas possesses over biological females? The numbers paint a clear picture. The fact that the University of Pennsylvania swimmer soared from a mid-500s ranking (554th in the 200 freestyle; all divisions) in men’s competition to one of the top-ranked swimmers in women’s competition tells the story of the unfairness which unfolded at the NCAA level."

Its really about fairness for female athletes who should be able to only compete against other female  athletes who have the same levels of testosterone

Most intersex athletes have natural elevated testosterone, its not there fault because they were born that way but it doesnt mean they should be competing in womens sports events where this makes a difference around performance

'Biological female' and 'biological male' are crappy dog whistley terms that also don't give enough information. Use the phrase 'cis women' you sorry excuse for a journalist.

 

Also no actually trans women don't necessarily have levels of elevated testosterone, because most competitions require them to have been on HRT to reduce their testosterone for about two years, which was the case with Lia Thomas. On the Lia Thomas story, no again to that worthless excuse for a journalist, the placing does not tell the whole story.

 

While competing in the men's comp, Lia was undergoing HRT from May 2019 until what appears to be her last swim in the men's comp in January 2020 before taking a year off before competing in the women's comp, as per competition rules. Her pre HRT accolades were pretty good, and included a 6th fastest time in the country in 2017. It's interesting that a lot of the dialogue about her 'rise' from some ridiculously off the pace ranking in the men's comp to 'one of the top-ranked' swimmers in the women's comp seems to have her soaring from a mid 500s ranking. One can only assume that ranking is from when she was on testosterone blockers, because a quick squiz at an archived version of the swimcloud site shows something of a different story. That archived page here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220318183249/https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/rankings/

Starts ranked only 84th in the state in 2013-14, rises to 99th out of all high school students in 16-17, and 100th in the country in the 2018-19 season. Her current swimcloud page inconveniently lacks all that, in favour of showing only her 2021-22 ranking, where she apparently rose to 44th in the country. Meanwhile, Cora Dupre, who was 45th in the country that season, was 83rd the season before.

 

So no, actually, Lia Thomas was an elite swimmer when she competed in the men's comp, became merely 'very good' when she was competing against men but taking HRT, and reverted to elite when she was temporarily allowed to actually compete as a woman.

[BruceVC]

On 12/7/2024 at 4:17 PM, Chairchucker said:

'Biological female' and 'biological male' are crappy dog whistley terms that also don't give enough information. Use the phrase 'cis women' you sorry excuse for a journalist.

 

Also no actually trans women don't necessarily have levels of elevated testosterone, because most competitions require them to have been on HRT to reduce their testosterone for about two years, which was the case with Lia Thomas. On the Lia Thomas story, no again to that worthless excuse for a journalist, the placing does not tell the whole story.

 

While competing in the men's comp, Lia was undergoing HRT from May 2019 until what appears to be her last swim in the men's comp in January 2020 before taking a year off before competing in the women's comp, as per competition rules. Her pre HRT accolades were pretty good, and included a 6th fastest time in the country in 2017. It's interesting that a lot of the dialogue about her 'rise' from some ridiculously off the pace ranking in the men's comp to 'one of the top-ranked' swimmers in the women's comp seems to have her soaring from a mid 500s ranking. One can only assume that ranking is from when she was on testosterone blockers, because a quick squiz at an archived version of the swimcloud site shows something of a different story. That archived page here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220318183249/https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/rankings/

Starts ranked only 84th in the state in 2013-14, rises to 99th out of all high school students in 16-17, and 100th in the country in the 2018-19 season. Her current swimcloud page inconveniently lacks all that, in favour of showing only her 2021-22 ranking, where she apparently rose to 44th in the country. Meanwhile, Cora Dupre, who was 45th in the country that season, was 83rd the season before.

 

So no, actually, Lia Thomas was an elite swimmer when she competed in the men's comp, became merely 'very good' when she was competing against men but taking HRT, and reverted to elite when she was temporarily allowed to actually compete as a woman.

I want to have this debate with you and I welcome others views because the debate about Transgender rights is not going away and it manifests in our societies in different ways and its motivated from a wide range of reasons that go from bigoty to genuine concern around fairness in  women sports events 

I will summarize my views on this and then if you can comment and agree\disagree that would be appreciated

Firstly there  are 2 main talking points around this and both these points sometimes get hijacked from people on the left and right to suit there own agendas but that doesnt change the legitimacy of both these 2 talking points 

First point is the whole US culture war debate that includes things like the pronouns debate. Do you believe that there is a valid  definition as a  biological female ? Its a loaded question because its easy to say "what do you mean by a biological female " ?

And to me thats obvious, a biological women is capable of having children

But thats not the same as someone wanting to be defined as a women because thats  a gender reference based on what a  person believes or they identify with and I support that. If I met you in RL and I know you a man but you explained to me you want me to refer to you as a female I would have no issue with that 

But that doesn't make you biological female. 

2% of the world population are born with intersex traits and then gender dysphoria is a  reality and I will always support how people want me to personally identify with them 

But  for me the term " biological female " is not a dog-whistle in any of  our Democratic societies , it should be an absolute agreed on definition for everyone. But that doesnt mean  you cant recognize and respect someone's personal reference around gender if they want to be called a women

 

And then sports is the second talking point and this is a different debate because its about fairness for women and everyone  competing fairly

If Trans athletes are taking HRT I assume that lowers the levels of elevated testosterone that many Trans athletes would have? If so then there is no reason they cant compete in  womens events 

Because thats my only concern, the elevated testosterone 

I made a post in 2019 about Caster Semenya but back in those days she didnt want to take HRT and there was legitimate criticism about how she had an advantage compared to other women in the events she competed in 

I have included the original post I made below, if you can through it that would be great so you can understand my view in this specific South African story 

But to summarize from the link below 

 

 

"Her intersex trait means she has elevated, natural testosterone compared to other women. this is not her fault as she was born like this. We measure natural testosterone  in the human body on nanomoles/liter. Women have between 0.12-1.79 nanomoles/liter and men after puberty have 7.7-29.4 nanomoles/liter

Caster has over 5 nanomoles/liter and this means elevated testosterone so the IAAF ruling wants her take medication to reduce her nanomoles/liter to below 5 "

But the main point Im making around sports is there is no reason that any Trans athlete should not be able to compete in female events if there testosterone levels are in the same range as other women but in Casters case it was more than double than any level a women could have and thats not fair or right 

 

 

 

[Chairchucker]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

First point is the whole US culture war debate that includes things like the pronouns debate. Do you believe that there is a valid  definition as a  biological female ? Its a loaded question because its easy to say "what do you mean by a biological female " ?

And to me thats obvious, a biological women is capable of having children

I would say that 'biological female' is not a remotely useful term, and frequently it is not used for clarity, (because that is not what it provides) it is used with the intent to hurt and deny the identity of trans women. Because frequently it is used in conjunction with calling a trans woman a 'biological male'.

 

To demonstrate why I don't think 'biological female' is a particularly useful term, in this or any context, I'm going to talk briefly about Mack Beggs. Mack was the subject of an ESPN 30 for 30 documentary entitled Mack Wrestles. He was a collegiate wrestler, and in 2017 he beat Chelsea Sanchez to win the Texas Girls' 110 lb championship. If you're wondering why Mack, a person I've just used the pronoun 'he' for, was wrestling against a girl in a girls' championship, it's because Texas athletic rules at the time had a rule that you must compete in the league for the sex assigned at birth. Mack is a trans man, or as someone might ignorantly say, a 'biological female'. But, crucially, Mack is obviously not who people like the author of that crappy article are talking about when they refer to 'biological females'. Now they could say 'biological females who haven't transitioned to men', but guess what, there's already a term for that, and that term is 'cis woman'.

 

So no, Bruce, I would say to anyone wanting to use the term 'biological females' to refer to women who are not trans, do not do this, say 'cis women'. You will be achieving a better level of clarity and as a bonus, not making trans women feel trash by the comparison.

 

Of course a big problem with using 'capable of having children' as the definition is that many are not. Not after menopause. Not if you're sterile. Not, for many, if you've had certain conditions like endometriosis. Some people prefer definition relating to numbers of X and Y chromosomes, with the issue being that some people may instead be born with XXY, or XO, or have the usual expected chromosomes but not have the sexual characteristics to match. And for most people you or I interact with, their number or type of chromosomes or what sexual organs they have will never be any of our business. In  my day to day life, in the ways I interact with someone, what someone is 'biologically' is as meaningless as it is hard to pin down. Socially, in terms of how I relate to people, I'm gonna find terms like 'man', 'woman' or 'non-binary' with adjectives like 'cis' or 'trans' if further clarification is needed, infinitely more useful.

 

As it relates to sport, however:

 

Sport isn't fair. Some people are taller. They have an unfair advantage over me in a bunch of sports like basketball or volleyball where height matters, and no amount of training will make that not true. Michael Phelps has an abnormally large lung capacity. I'm not averse to requiring a certain testosterone level at certain levels of competitive sport, but in the overwhelming majority of cases my stance is: let women play sport with women, let men play sport with men, stop proposing dumb stuff like a whole separate league for the three trans people in the state.

[Malcador]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/unitedhealthcare-shooting-inevitable.html

Found this as Fetterman got his knickers in a twist over this

[Hurlshort]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/unitedhealthcare-shooting-inevitable.html

Found this as Fetterman got his knickers in a twist over this

That is an excellent article. I am alright with health care executives living with some of the fears that classroom teachers and students have been facing for the last decade+.

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/unitedhealthcare-shooting-inevitable.html

Found this as Fetterman got his knickers in a twist over this

What has surprised me is how many people seem to be fine with this killing?

I can understand the frustration and anger towards the  medical aid industry but killing people in the streets is not going to change anything in the industry 

Why stop there, lets go around killing politicians and bank CEO?

 

 

[ShadySands]

38 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Why stop there, lets go around killing politicians and bank CEO?

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

I would say that 'biological female' is not a remotely useful term, and frequently it is not used for clarity, (because that is not what it provides) it is used with the intent to hurt and deny the identity of trans women. Because frequently it is used in conjunction with calling a trans woman a 'biological male'.

 

To demonstrate why I don't think 'biological female' is a particularly useful term, in this or any context, I'm going to talk briefly about Mack Beggs. Mack was the subject of an ESPN 30 for 30 documentary entitled Mack Wrestles. He was a collegiate wrestler, and in 2017 he beat Chelsea Sanchez to win the Texas Girls' 110 lb championship. If you're wondering why Mack, a person I've just used the pronoun 'he' for, was wrestling against a girl in a girls' championship, it's because Texas athletic rules at the time had a rule that you must compete in the league for the sex assigned at birth. Mack is a trans man, or as someone might ignorantly say, a 'biological female'. But, crucially, Mack is obviously not who people like the author of that crappy article are talking about when they refer to 'biological females'. Now they could say 'biological females who haven't transitioned to men', but guess what, there's already a term for that, and that term is 'cis woman'.

 

So no, Bruce, I would say to anyone wanting to use the term 'biological females' to refer to women who are not trans, do not do this, say 'cis women'. You will be achieving a better level of clarity and as a bonus, not making trans women feel trash by the comparison.

 

Of course a big problem with using 'capable of having children' as the definition is that many are not. Not after menopause. Not if you're sterile. Not, for many, if you've had certain conditions like endometriosis. Some people prefer definition relating to numbers of X and Y chromosomes, with the issue being that some people may instead be born with XXY, or XO, or have the usual expected chromosomes but not have the sexual characteristics to match. And for most people you or I interact with, their number or type of chromosomes or what sexual organs they have will never be any of our business. In  my day to day life, in the ways I interact with someone, what someone is 'biologically' is as meaningless as it is hard to pin down. Socially, in terms of how I relate to people, I'm gonna find terms like 'man', 'woman' or 'non-binary' with adjectives like 'cis' or 'trans' if further clarification is needed, infinitely more useful.

 

As it relates to sport, however:

 

Sport isn't fair. Some people are taller. They have an unfair advantage over me in a bunch of sports like basketball or volleyball where height matters, and no amount of training will make that not true. Michael Phelps has an abnormally large lung capacity. I'm not averse to requiring a certain testosterone level at certain levels of competitive sport, but in the overwhelming majority of cases my stance is: let women play sport with women, let men play sport with men, stop proposing dumb stuff like a whole separate league for the three trans people in the state.

You dont go around referring to any women in public as a "biological women",  in a  social environment you not going to  ask any women you meet " are you a biological women " 

Its a technical term because of this  ongoing debate. And the definition should be clear, a biological women is capable of having children. Of course some women cant have children for the reasons you mentioned but that doesnt change the obvious physiological differences between men and women and the real differences is the ability to have children. Thats the basic genetic reason how most species exist, women  can have children and men cant 

But thats not the same debate as respecting someone's view to be referred to as a women and treated as a women but that doesn't make them a biological women unless they can have children?

 

You seem to be conflating the culture wars debate with this technical debate? Im not talking about the personal reference. Trans people have every right to want to be referred to as women, I have no issue with that as I explained 

And then Im confused with your sports point, if an intersex athlete has elevated testosterone compared to other women who compete in the same event do  you support them taking HRT to reduce there levels of natural testosterone?

Because you say " let women play sport with women " and that does mean they should take HRT if required  so its fair?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

What has surprised me is how many people seem to be fine with this killing?

I can understand the frustration and anger towards the  medical aid industry but killing people in the streets is not going to change anything in the industry 

Why stop there, lets go around killing politicians and bank CEO?

 

 

Why is that a surprise? His industry isn't all that popular,  his company is less so and he was just some suit that wouldn't care that much about regular people.

Wouldn't change things, unless you kill a lot. But will go to show suits they bleed like everyone else. 

He should have wasted some finance bros.