BruceVC Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 13 hours ago, Malcador said: Because they follow the rules based order. In that the rules apply to thee, not me. But its a relief you dont support the rules based order, imagine how outraged you would be if you did believe in it "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 hours ago, BruceVC said: But its a relief you dont support the rules based order, imagine how outraged you would be if you did believe in it The "Rules Based Order" is a bit of a myth, just like El Dorado. Enough repetition of the phrase and some people start thinking it exists. Let's be honest though, powerful countries do what they want, when it suits them and it benefits them. Nothing's changed since the fall of the western Roman Empire there. It's always an easier sell to your population if you can justify why a lot of the serfs have to die for their lord, but in the end, it's just a way of placating the masses. Sometimes the justifications are easier to come by, sometimes they have to be manufactured and sometimes, countries just go "ah screw it, too much work" and do what they please (both England and France used to live by the credo might is right in the past). It's still very much the case today, realpolitik and powerful interest groups acts our their objective grabbing through governments (which are usually appointed by whoever controls popular opinion, again, a commodity you can buy if you have the means) 1 1 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 16 minutes ago, Gorth said: The "Rules Based Order" is a bit of a myth, just like El Dorado. Enough repetition of the phrase and some people start thinking it exists. Let's be honest though, powerful countries do what they want, when it suits them and it benefits them. Nothing's changed since the fall of the western Roman Empire there. It's always an easier sell to your population if you can justify why a lot of the serfs have to die for their lord, but in the end, it's just a way of placating the masses. Sometimes the justifications are easier to come by, sometimes they have to be manufactured and sometimes, countries just go "ah screw it, too much work" and do what they please (both England and France used to live by the credo might is right in the past). It's still very much the case today, realpolitik and powerful interest groups acts our their objective grabbing through governments (which are usually appointed by whoever controls popular opinion, again, a commodity you can buy if you have the means) I wouldnt call it a myth, I would say the outcomes of the rules based order cant always be enforced But the rules exist and they have to exist. And the entire belief in the rules based order matters to any conflict and how people reflect on it And the ICJ and ICC are examples of part of the rules based order, there are no other institutions to rule on international crimes without these institutions And I realize its easy and probably correct to say "large countries can do what they want " but the rules still matter Just take this case of Israel being taken to the ICJ, I dont know how its been reflected on in Oz but in SA there is lots of positive sentiment and support for the case and people saying things like " SA has finally given the world a conscience " and " this is about highlighting our common humanity " And I dont want to be negative and mention that the ICJ rulings arent binding, for example Russia ignored the ICJ to end the invasion of Ukraine So I do understand the cynicism because there is legitimate point you making about a lack of action in the case of the ICJ but as I mentioned it still matters to the people involved Imagine this, the UN is part of the rules based order and that includes all its humanitarian institutions. Think how immeasurably worse off the third world and impoverished countries would be without it Almost every single critical humanitarian mission in Africa or the ME is funded and implemented by the UN "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 ICJ judgements are binding (unless specified otherwise) but they're not enforceable. ie they don't have any way- short of the UNSC or similar- to enforce their decisions via a 'police force' equivalent. Non binding is similar practically, especially in these circumstances, but would not be enforced except voluntarily even if they had that 'police force' to do so. Plenty of other institutions rule on international crimes too, like the UNSC. They didn't need the ICJ to rule that Iraq invading Kuwait was illegal, for instance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 20 hours ago, Gorth said: It's always an easier sell to your population if you can justify why a lot of the serfs have to die for their lord, but in the end, it's just a way of placating the masses. The use of these phrases and terms nearly always contains an interesting detail, and I wonder if you agree with it. Simply put: it is fairly easy to make statements that have to do with "the masses", and you do indeed see it quite a lot, but people who use those terms don't consider themselves to be part of the masses. Which sort of raises the question of who are the masses, then. I think this is a distant relative of the overarching cynicism that you can see plenty of on these forums, too, if you want. But only a distant relative: I don't think this is particularly malign. It is interesting, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 15 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: The use of these phrases and terms nearly always contains an interesting detail, and I wonder if you agree with it. Simply put: it is fairly easy to make statements that have to do with "the masses", and you do indeed see it quite a lot, but people who use those terms don't consider themselves to be part of the masses. Which sort of raises the question of who are the masses, then. I think this is a distant relative of the overarching cynicism that you can see plenty of on these forums, too, if you want. But only a distant relative: I don't think this is particularly malign. It is interesting, though. If it interests you, I do consider myself one of the masses. Hence why it p.....s me off no end when I feel constantly lied to and spend a lot of time and effort fending off attempts to deceive me 1 1 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 56 minutes ago, Gorth said: If it interests you, I do consider myself one of the masses. Hence why it p.....s me off no end when I feel constantly lied to and spend a lot of time and effort fending off attempts to deceive me Gorthfuscious if you ever worried about people deceiving you then ask me, you know you can trust me 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 12 hours ago, Zoraptor said: ICJ judgements are binding (unless specified otherwise) but they're not enforceable. ie they don't have any way- short of the UNSC or similar- to enforce their decisions via a 'police force' equivalent. Non binding is similar practically, especially in these circumstances, but would not be enforced except voluntarily even if they had that 'police force' to do so. Plenty of other institutions rule on international crimes too, like the UNSC. They didn't need the ICJ to rule that Iraq invading Kuwait was illegal, for instance. Yes, thats an important distinction. I keep saying they not binding which is not true, they not enforceable And I make this same point on Codex which no one has corrected. But you right "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Gorth said: If it interests you, I do consider myself one of the masses. Hence why it p.....s me off no end when I feel constantly lied to and spend a lot of time and effort fending off attempts to deceive me Could you give me an example of what you think to be a serious lie from recent times? I'm genuinely interested. My knowledge of Australian matters is not that good, but I would agree that the Australian government, for instance, is not one that inspires trust in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 10 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: Could you give me an example of what you think to be a serious lie from recent times? I'm genuinely interested. My knowledge of Australian matters is not that good, but I would agree that the Australian government, for instance, is not one that inspires trust in me. Just 50 from the world of domestic politics... https://www.crikey.com.au/dossier-of-lies-and-falsehoods/ Then there are of course international politics... similar lists from Trump, The Bushes, Boris Johnson, Vladimir Putin, Modi, Bolsano etc... Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq? Brexit will be a net positive for the UK!, We will not invade Ukraine... etc. etc. All in all, whenever a new state leader swears to serve his people (when he really means serving the interest groups that got him/her in power) Then there are all the corporate ones... Former and current CEO's of Boeing, most bank CEO's and the majority of their executives, local telco CEO's lying about data leaks, outages and impacts on emergency calls etc. The church lying to the public for half a century and denying that the worlds largest pedophile ring is not doing anything wrong and diligently investigating claims to the opposite... All of which only gets exposed because luckily some journalists still dig into these things. Feel free to add to the list, but those were just what sprang to mind within the first 15 seconds. Could probably write a thesis if I felt like putting the effort into it. 1 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 37 minutes ago, Gorth said: Just 50 from the world of domestic politics... https://www.crikey.com.au/dossier-of-lies-and-falsehoods/ Then there are of course international politics... similar lists from Trump, The Bushes, Boris Johnson, Vladimir Putin, Modi, Bolsano etc... Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq? Brexit will be a net positive for the UK!, We will not invade Ukraine... etc. etc. All in all, whenever a new state leader swears to serve his people (when he really means serving the interest groups that got him/her in power) Then there are all the corporate ones... Former and current CEO's of Boeing, most bank CEO's and the majority of their executives, local telco CEO's lying about data leaks, outages and impacts on emergency calls etc. The church lying to the public for half a century and denying that the worlds largest pedophile ring is not doing anything wrong and diligently investigating claims to the opposite... All of which only gets exposed because luckily some journalists still dig into these things. Feel free to add to the list, but those were just what sprang to mind within the first 15 seconds. Could probably write a thesis if I felt like putting the effort into it. Even though I disagree with your general cynicism about the rules based order and global politics I respect your consistency and the examples you listing Because you can make a compelling argument irrespective if its true or not around every example you have given But a serious question, the systems we have are flawed and imperfect. But whats the alternative to religious belief or even systems of Democracy. If you could wave a wand and immediately change anything in the world what would you change and the change must be sustainable and realistic? So the real point is "yes we have inconsistencies and failures in our modern age " but whats the alternative to something like the UN or religious conviction that helps most people cope with there problems in society? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 27 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Even though I disagree with your general cynicism It doesn't seem to me that he's being cynical; those examples he gave truly are very bad. What's interesting is that things used to be a lot worse. For example, for a few months now, I have been involved in a work project concerning the history of the Mafia, going back to the feodal times. Essentially everything is a lot better now than it used to be; even the early 20th century was quite awful compared to what we have now (except for environmental problems). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 minute ago, xzar_monty said: What's interesting is that things used to be a lot worse. For example, for a few months now, I have been involved in a work project concerning the history of the Mafia, going back to the feodal times. Essentially everything is a lot better now than it used to be; even the early 20th century was quite awful compared to what we have now (except for environmental problems). Yes and I agree, things are generally much better now in the world if you look at numerous metrics like people living in absolute poverty, life expectancy or education levels So even though that's irrefutably true the positive side of that story tends to get lost because people tend to say things like "why do I care about life 100 years ago, I care about my salary now or the fact I cant own a house " or other similar things But I agree, the worlds a much better place than its ever been 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 7 minutes ago, BruceVC said: So even though that's irrefutably true the positive side of that story tends to get lost There is a general lack of historical knowledge, and positive things also don't tend to be news as such. Both of these factors contribute a lot. 9/11 is big news, long-term incremental improvement of essentially everything is not: there is never any Eureka moment. But let's just consider things like infant surgery done without anaesthesia well into the 1980s. The past is a terrible, terrible place. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 On 1/25/2024 at 1:57 AM, BruceVC said: But its a relief you dont support the rules based order, imagine how outraged you would be if you did believe in it Just the general hypocrisy, after all the US wouldn't approve of other nations killing people they don't like on their soil, or assassinating their scientists, for example. Zizek made a funny statement, about how when you make the rules, you never break them 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 https://www.barrons.com/news/germany-uncovers-russian-disinformation-campaign-on-x-report-7254cfa6 Another story of Russian disinformation but this occured in Germany "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 7 hours ago, Gorth said: Then there are of course international politics... similar lists from Trump, The Bushes, Boris Johnson, Vladimir Putin, Modi, Bolsano etc... And what of the lies of the Clintons and Obama and Biden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 7 hours ago, xzar_monty said: But let's just consider things like infant surgery done without anaesthesia well into the 1980s. The past is a terrible, terrible place. Wouldnt this be a case of hindsight? IMO the surgeons of the 80's were doing the best they could with the current medical understanding of the times, and not purposely torturing babies. Im sure in 2068 theyll look back and be aghast at 2024 medical techniques. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Gfted1 said: Wouldnt this be a case of hindsight? IMO the surgeons of the 80's were doing the best they could with the current medical understanding of the times, and not purposely torturing babies. Im sure in 2068 theyll look back and be aghast at 2024 medical techniques. I'm pretty sure, or at least I hope, that for something like this, you are correct. For other things like smoking and sugar, I think it has come out that those industries knew the dangers back in the 50s/60s. Edited January 26 by ShadySands Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 5 hours ago, kanisatha said: And what of the lies of the Clintons and Obama and Biden? I did *not* have sex with that woman… True. No idea how notorious a liar the Biden government is. Obama probably benefits from “relativity” because it felt less awful than what came before and after? But there was still something about extrajudicial international killings picking up under his watch… 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) On 1/26/2024 at 6:43 PM, Gfted1 said: Wouldnt this be a case of hindsight? IMO the surgeons of the 80's were doing the best they could with the current medical understanding of the times, and not purposely torturing babies. Im sure in 2068 theyll look back and be aghast at 2024 medical techniques. Yes. I did not suggest that there was any intentional torturing going on, only that things were radically different in a bad way. One interesting question is whether the amount of serious deceit has increased or decreased, and that's quite hard to determine. But I would still say it has decreased, probably by a lot, although cultures obviously vary. Violence has clearly come down, and that's a good thing. Edited January 29 by xzar_monty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/nato-societies-must-be-ready-war Lot of articles from all over about how war with Russia is real soon. Although apparently Russia has been knocked back 18 years as well. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, Malcador said: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/nato-societies-must-be-ready-war Lot of articles from all over about how war with Russia is real soon. Although apparently Russia has been knocked back 18 years as well. Yeah, lots of similar articles in Foreign Affairs and Foreign Policy as well. Main argument seems to be that as Russia and Putin get past their shock over how the war went at the beginning, and now see the war being successful for them (whether true or not), they are becoming more emboldened to push back against NATO, including renewing their core policy of trying to drive a wedge between Europe and the US. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 The enemy is both weak and strong. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) And apparently replacing him with Budanov? Ah ok, denied as a rumour. Would be a head scratcher if true. Edited January 29 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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