Zoraptor Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Should have left in the "don't bother replying part" in. The trouble with someone who always believes they're right is they're utterly pointless to engage with because their only actual purpose is maintaining their ego. Good laugh quoting someone from Bellingcat. They still have articles up insisting that the Khan Sheikoun CW attack was from a missile (ctrl f 'rocket': all the eyewitnesses), and that anyone who said it was a missile was a Russian plant spreading disinformation. Physician heal thyself. 5 hours ago, BruceVC said: But the much of the anti-US rhetoric is around things like " the US wants eternal war in the ME " and there is a constant expectation that the US needs to help find peace in the conflict At this point is it really rhetoric? You can certainly argue the 'want' part, but comes a point where if you're continually making things worse the 'want' becomes irrelevant. To use an analogy the practical difference between a surgeon who is incompetent and one who fails deliberately is non existent, for the victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Zoraptor said: The trouble with someone who always believes they're right is they're utterly pointless to engage with because their only actual purpose is maintaining their ego. *chuckle* am knowing that were not meant as a self own, but... made even more amusing 'cause again, zor misses the important part: what reasonable person would argue against waiting for more/better info before making accusations and casting aspersions? curious, and beyond the ordinary reasonable we got at least one advocate o' the irrational and obdurate. moving on, and regarding the recent US veto, "Thomas-Greenfield said the United States was disappointed the draft resolution made no mention of Israel's rights of self defense and she blamed Hamas for the Gaza humanitarian crisis." am disappointed 'cause am not thinking a humanitarian ceasefire requires the establishment o' blame. sure, israel wants it to be understood that they is responding to the murder and kidnapping o' its citizens, but to make a ceasefire contingent upon such a recognition does strike us as... inhumane. the ownership o' the moral high ground territory is extreme subjective, but refusing a humanitarian ceasefire does not look good for those claiming such a lofty perch. HA! Good Fun! Edited October 19, 2023 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 US Navy destroyer in Red Sea shoots down cruise missiles fired by Houthis in Yemen: Pentagon - ABC News 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) Had a chance to look at Israel's evidence on the Al Ahli strike in more detail and... they have the missiles launching from two different places 4km apart. Pretty much zero doubt about it to, completely mismatched description and location provided*. The cemetery mentioned is almost next door to the Ah-Ahli hospital. Its furthest extent is ~120m away. Their trajectory info however shows launches from about 4km away, in a ?Olive Grove? next to the coast (rough location; the Israeli circle is not exactly precise, the cemetery is just visible at the northern extent on a 1440uw monitor, so that will vary as resolution does). Something agricultural anyway, and there are no cemeteries nearby. We now also have confirmation from the Archbishop of Canterbury that Israel ordered the hospital evacuated the day before, a point that was in dispute with some. Credit to Britain's Channel 4 too, for remembering that Israel also has air burst munitions, not just ones that leave big craters. *The reason for the mismatched locations are pretty obvious and already stated: the launch has to be close by or the propellant has all been burnt up accelerating the rocket and you don't get the big immediate fire observed. Hence the nearby cemetery as location. But that doesn't match any other details since the rocket would not be moving quickly if it had traveled only 120m, so no whistling sound- maybe an active rocket sound, but we didn't get that- hence the more distant location. Build your own scenario out of bits, even if they're mutually contradictory. May also be a vestige of their previous release of missile launches with a failure that was meant to show the incident but was actually from 40 minutes after. Edited October 19, 2023 by Zoraptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Gfted1 said: US Navy destroyer in Red Sea shoots down cruise missiles fired by Houthis in Yemen: Pentagon - ABC News That's bold of them to try it at that distance Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 9 hours ago, Zoraptor said: At this point is it really rhetoric? You can certainly argue the 'want' part, but comes a point where if you're continually making things worse the 'want' becomes irrelevant. To use an analogy the practical difference between a surgeon who is incompetent and one who fails deliberately is non existent, for the victims. Its exaggerated, misplaced and doesn't accurately represent the US interests in the ME or the reasons for its military interventions. If anything its to ensure stability for economic interests but no-one wants eternal war in the ME because how does it benefit anyone ? And the US has always supported Israel since its creation and I would argue the US has put more effort into trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict than anyone else. But end of the day it cant force Israel or the Palestinians to agree to a 2 state solution. Only leadership from both sides can do that It reminds me of some of these Islamic extremists who in their manifesto claim the US are crusaders who want to destroy the Islamic world, why would the US want to destroy the Islamic world? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Schrödinger's War. Rules-based order nations commit and don't commit war crimes at the same time. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 that is a interesting way of making things sound good pretty sure spain wanted to ensure stability for economic interest in their colony before they all went independent so did britain stability under whose authority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 34 minutes ago, uuuhhii said: that is a interesting way of making things sound good pretty sure spain wanted to ensure stability for economic interest in their colony before they all went independent so did britain stability under whose authority Under no ones authority, most the world wants a stable and prosperous ME. It doesn't really benefit anyone in the long-term the suggestion of any "endless war" in the ME Because if the entire ME erupts into civil war it will have a direct impact on the oil price which will negatively impact every single country in the world . You remember how the oil price got to $120 after Covid ended and how that impacted our economies So even if someone doesn't care about the humanitarian reasons of wars in the ME you should care about the stability of the ME because it directly can influence the global economy So to repeat my point, no it doesn't make sense that the US would want endless wars in the ME because at the very least its not in its own economic interests "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 It's not about the Middle East Western countries will nuke the world rather than allow the so-called "****hole" countries to overtake them. 1 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Wonder how long until IDF intelligence claims Hamas is seizing the 12 trucks and JDAMs them. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 40 minutes ago, HoonDing said: It's not about the Middle East Western countries will nuke the world rather than allow the so-called "****hole" countries to overtake them. *snort* and we thought Gromnir were old. hoon is so stuck in 20th century thinking. never read a cyberpunk novel? multinationals is not near concerned with the old power politics models as they is with the bottom line. when the inevitable amazon-berkshire hathaway-johnson & johnson and microsoft-disney mergers final and inevitable occur... HA! Good Fun! 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Israel-Hamas War Day 14 | Red Cross Says It Has Two American Hostages Released by Hamas 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted October 21, 2023 Author Share Posted October 21, 2023 https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2023/10/19/kill-the-difficult-ones-hamas-had-a-hostage-taking-manual-n586192?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral This article is mostly from Graeme Wood a journalist from The Atlantic, its behind a paywall so this is for easy access In summary its about how Hamas didnt expect to have the initial success from the attack and they werent intending to take hostages back to Gaza but rather use them as human shields as part of the immediate expected Israeli military response which didnt happen. Hamas even had a manual on how to torture and kill Israeli hostages within Israel "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeYellow Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 US has not been on Israel's side since around 1987. Since then US has become increasingly partisan on the side of Israel, which is going causing long term problems to US role in world. First Ukraine now Israel, US just blindly chooses a side w/o adequate tact. China, meanwhile is playing the adult here in BOTH conflicts and is actually considering both sides POV in conflicts and wants peace and both sides to achieve a peaceful 2 state solution and has never reflexively took a side as the case with recent US impulses. US is very insecure nation for the past few decades and doesn't know how to use their wealth and power to achieve proper peace in global conflicts. It's sad really, US really comes off as bad news in today's world when it did not have to happen. The Global South is continuously being alienated by US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Convenient. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 17 minutes ago, Malcador said: Convenient. They wouldn't dress like that if they weren't terrorist. 1 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 8 minutes ago, Sarex said: They wouldn't dress like that if they weren't terrorist. One of the rules in the rules based order. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 this is getting worse than when spain exile all their islam population 500 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 They did the same to their Jewish population as well. Irony being that a lot of them went to Muslim countries since they were more tolerant. Still pretty relevant, since Israel is clearly trying to remove Palestinian Christians just as much as Muslims hence their systematic bombing of churches as well as mosques. (actually a pretty good example of history based propaganda too: a lot of sources say many of the Jews expelled from Spain went to 'Greece', which didn't exist for another 300 years. They went to the Ottoman Empire, but it sounds better saying 'Greece and Italy' since they're Christians and show how tolerant Christianity 'really' is. Of course, England and France had already expelled their Jews to steal their money/ cancel loans...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 8 hours ago, Zoraptor said: They did the same to their Jewish population as well. Irony being that a lot of them went to Muslim countries since they were more tolerant. Still pretty relevant, since Israel is clearly trying to remove Palestinian Christians just as much as Muslims hence their systematic bombing of churches as well as mosques. (actually a pretty good example of history based propaganda too: a lot of sources say many of the Jews expelled from Spain went to 'Greece', which didn't exist for another 300 years. They went to the Ottoman Empire, but it sounds better saying 'Greece and Italy' since they're Christians and show how tolerant Christianity 'really' is. Of course, England and France had already expelled their Jews to steal their money/ cancel loans...) People don't understand that Jews were not tolerated in the western world before WW2. "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Funny, we learned about the whole WW2 thing a lot in school, but I never really grasped the background of it all until I've read Umberto Eco's Prague Cemetery. At first the book highly confused me, so I started reading up on it more until it finally really clicked for me, that jews weren't just hated by Germany back then. It goes so damn far back in time. In hindsight it is obvious, but it really wasn't in my mind like that. Literally everyone hated jews and they were commonly used as scapegoats. Chances are high that if germany wouldn't have started with the death camps, someone else for sure would have. 1 "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lexx said: Funny, we learned about the whole WW2 thing a lot in school, but I never really grasped the background of it all until I've read Umberto Eco's Prague Cemetery. At first the book highly confused me, so I started reading up on it more until it finally really clicked for me, that jews weren't just hated by Germany back then. It goes so damn far back in time. In hindsight it is obvious, but it really wasn't in my mind like that. Literally everyone hated jews and they were commonly used as scapegoats. Chances are high that if germany wouldn't have started with the death camps, someone else for sure would have. Thats interesting, I thought most people knew that European anti-semitism goes back hundreds of years. The NAZI were just one example of it and they successfully implemented a program of genocide around it with the Final Solution Thats why most Jews are so sensitive to anti-semitism, its historic and generational and the response to the Hamas attack lets bigots rage about it again and of course the Israeli strategy doesn't help either And I posted this link earlier but you should read about the historical pogroms in Russia where Russian Jews get blamed for events and then killed and attacked , even if they weren't responsible https://www.britannica.com/topic/pogrom This is why Israel and its belief in the significance of a single Israeli Jewish life matters, thats why I will never believe they knew the Hamas attack was really going to happen. It would be the ultimate betrayal of what Israel stands for Edited October 23, 2023 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Lexx said: Funny, we learned about the whole WW2 thing a lot in school, but I never really grasped the background of it all until I've read Umberto Eco's Prague Cemetery. At first the book highly confused me, so I started reading up on it more until it finally really clicked for me, that jews weren't just hated by Germany back then. It goes so damn far back in time. In hindsight it is obvious, but it really wasn't in my mind like that. Literally everyone hated jews and they were commonly used as scapegoats. Chances are high that if germany wouldn't have started with the death camps, someone else for sure would have. The Croats were competing with all they had. "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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