Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 6

[InsaneCommander]

34 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Cracks me up you can have a paladin open locks and disarm traps

Where's Keldorn when you need him

He is waiting for your next pt, when you can choose him as the main character.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

Somebody needs to mod it in asap, since it fits the Overlord character as well.

Unfortunately if it's pnp accurate, we can't hurt anyone when time has stopped.

49 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Where's Keldorn when you need him

He's a gnome now.

[HoonDing]

The gods apparently didn't do diddly-squat either when aboleths (lol) called down that meteor shower. They're even bigger useless morons than in Faerun.

But it seems that Pharasma is playing the role of Ao at least

Edited July 14, 2023 by HoonDing

[InsaneCommander]

I'll miss the council sessions. Daeran is hilarious. And I can't wait to follow Regill's advice when I play evil.

7 hours ago, HoonDing said:

The gods apparently didn't do diddly-squat either when aboleths (lol) called down that meteor shower. They're even bigger useless morons than in Faerun.

Ember approves of your comment. Keep her in your party and you'll get along just fine.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, HoonDing said:

The gods apparently didn't do diddly-squat either when aboleths (lol) called down that meteor shower. They're even bigger useless morons than in Faerun.

But it seems that Pharasma is playing the role of Ao at least

That's not fair, Zon-Kuthon showed up to do a devil's bargain with some horse breeders.

57 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

I'll miss the council sessions. Daeran is hilarious. And I can't wait to follow Regill's advice when I play evil.

I hated Diplomacy because the dumb fox lady wouldn't let me do my job. Daeran is indeed the mvp of advisors though, Wolijiff doing a ponzi scheme is also on point.

[ShadySands]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:46 PM, InsaneCommander said:

I'll begin as a reasonably decent "the ends justify the means" necromancer who genuinely just wants to stop the demonic invasion. And then I'll go full insane with power and sacrifice anything (and everyone) for it.

Isn't this...

Spoiler

the outcome of the Lich path no matter what? It happened to Zacharias that way too, didn't it? 

Restartitis got me again and I'm doing an Aeon to Devil cheat game where my Tiefling is a Crossblooded/Overwhelming Mage Sorc and Virtuous Bravo Paladin gestalt character. At Leper's Smile now.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

24 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I'm doing an Aeon to Devil cheat game where my Tiefling is a Crossblooded/Overwhelming Mage Sorc and Virtuous Bravo Paladin gestalt character

That's quite the downfall. You gonna merge spellbooks?

[213374U]

Sigh. I think I'm just going to turn the difficulty down to story and plow through what's left of the game to see the rest of the story. Can't be ****ed to deal with the combat. Already had a feeling that "tactics" mostly all boiled down to buffing to the gills and AoOing my way to victory when I was forced to do exactly that with Playful Darkness. KC is a Greater Dispel specialist spell master so if it's dispellable, kiss it bye-bye. Act 4 is more of the same, but somehow worse. Pathetic quasit? The azata path fight? Meh. Could go for Greater Enduring Spells so I get 24h short duration buffs and autopilot through the rest of the game, but I'd still have to go through the mind-numbing prebuffing ritual after every other rest, and I do enough drudge work 9-5.

Obviously the gameplay is amazing if one enjoys theorycrafting (or copying stupid broken builds from youtube...), but that's not my cup of tea. This game has really, really made me appreciate DOS(2) combat. I should have done my research better and found out why this is called mathfinder before starting a Core run.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

46 minutes ago, 213374U said:

still have to go through the mind-numbing prebuffing ritual after every other rest, and I do enough drudge work 9-5

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/195

Set it up once and save hours of time.

[InsaneCommander]

7 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Wolijiff doing a ponzi scheme is also on point.

Yes, just saw that.

5 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Isn't this...

  Reveal hidden contents

the outcome of the Lich path no matter what? It happened to Zacharias that way too, didn't it? 

I don't know, I destroyed that wand and never met the guy. Anyway, what I meant is that I'll not necessarily be (that) evil in the beginning. I intend to avoid most of the stupid "Die! (Evil)" options but also the Angel interactions for the Mythic powers.

What is the point of killing npcs for no reason? Leave that option for the end of quests or when you are alone with them. It would be interesting to have the option to kill in secret and still be considered a noble hero of the Crusade.

[ShadySands]

You shouldn't have any problem with your plan, it actually works out quite well. It's just if you were going to try to remake Geb or something then that's not going to pan out.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

12 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Yes, just saw that.

The late-game crusade meetings are something else.

12 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

What is the point of killing npcs for no reason?

To be EEEEVILLLLLLLLL. I kind of want to do it someday, maybe on a swarm run if I ever bother with that, as sort of a meme playthrough to see what happens if "I don't like you. DIE!" was picked every time.

[uuuhhii]

18 hours ago, HoonDing said:

The gods apparently didn't do diddly-squat either when aboleths (lol) called down that meteor shower. They're even bigger useless morons than in Faerun.

But it seems that Pharasma is playing the role of Ao at least

most gods are not babysitter of mortal

they should care a bit more about cage cracking though

[Sarex]

6 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/195

Set it up once and save hours of time.

But that is half of the gameplay/experience!

I didn't mind the buffing that much, at least when I remember to save after I buffed.

[213374U]

3 hours ago, Sarex said:

But that is half of the gameplay/experience!

...you're not wrong.

I was aware of the different buffbot mods. And the fact that they are so popular highlight an issue with the game itself, in my opinion (and Sawyer's, I guess?). But I get the feeling that they functionally take the game down to "Casual" difficulty. So then why would I not just play on casual from the start and save time? I have probably clocked thousands of hours combined on the likes of BEx 3025, LWotC, Xenonauts... but I just can't stand how shallow the combat feels in this game once you get past all the trap choices, useless spells and mandatory buffing. I'm not sure I'd dare call it bad design, but it does mean that a significant share of the "gameplay" is in the character sheet. I'm not a fan. It's funny because I'm already thinking of what path I want to try next playthrough.

Heh, maybe I really should give PoE a second chance.

[kanisatha]

Yeah the massive pre-buffing needed for many encounters is what got me also choosing the 'drop difficulty all the way down' option instead. But playing Angel, there are several Angel spells whereby with one click you cast multiple buffs on the whole party. I've been using those spells a lot. My only complaint there is that 'Death Ward' is not available in a 'communal' form anywhere. What gives? That is the most useful buff of all, yet no party-cast version of it? Really sucks.

[uuuhhii]

21 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Yeah the massive pre-buffing needed for many encounters is what got me also choosing the 'drop difficulty all the way down' option instead. But playing Angel, there are several Angel spells whereby with one click you cast multiple buffs on the whole party. I've been using those spells a lot. My only complaint there is that 'Death Ward' is not available in a 'communal' form anywhere. What gives? That is the most useful buff of all, yet no party-cast version of it? Really sucks.

death ward doesn't even have group version in 2e

not sure what designer are thinking

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 hours ago, Sarex said:

But that is half of the gameplay/experience!

Then that's 10s or even 100s of hours saved.

2 hours ago, 213374U said:

...you're not wrong.

I was aware of the different buffbot mods. And the fact that they are so popular highlight an issue with the game itself, in my opinion (and Sawyer's, I guess?). But I get the feeling that they functionally take the game down to "Casual" difficulty. So then why would I not just play on casual from the start and save time? I have probably clocked thousands of hours combined on the likes of BEx 3025, LWotC, Xenonauts... but I just can't stand how shallow the combat feels in this game once you get past all the trap choices, useless spells and mandatory buffing. I'm not sure I'd dare call it bad design, but it does mean that a significant share of the "gameplay" is in the character sheet. I'm not a fan. It's funny because I'm already thinking of what path I want to try next playthrough.

Heh, maybe I really should give PoE a second chance.

I would disagree with the mod I linked taking down difficulty to casual, all it really does is automate your existing out of combat buffing and I don't believe that it can be used in combat. The problem is the structural gap between a pre-buff routine and a nekkid party, and it seems the game is designed assuming pre-buffing.

...but that is a technical quibble and I agree with the thrust of your post, a substantial amount of combat is decided on the spreadsheet rather than the battlefield. Stacking your stats up to the stratosphere is going to be substantially more effective than tactics in winning the majority of battles, which are definitely more simple than the SCS stuff or even GBA era Fire Emblem. If you want to play on story or casual from the start instead of having to be a part-time manager go ahead man, people should play games how they like.

I gave PoE a second chance after playing WotR for the first and managed to beat it, but I got burned out by Deadfire. Despite being more componently made and definitely better looking, I just struggle to get into the PoE games. I can't quite articulate why, but they just don't grab me and eventually it feels more like a chore than something I actually enjoy. Somehow, the shoddily assembled jalopy game works better for me. Go figure.

[213374U]

19 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

If you want to play on story or casual from the start instead of having to be a part-time manager go ahead man, people should play games how they like.

But my internet cred!
 

  

19 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I gave PoE a second chance after playing WotR for the first and managed to beat it, but I got burned out by Deadfire. Despite being more componently made and definitely better looking, I just struggle to get into the PoE games. I can't quite articulate why, but they just don't grab me and eventually it feels more like a chore than something I actually enjoy. Somehow, the shoddily assembled jalopy game works better for me. Go figure.

Yeah, similar experience. I've tried to get into PoE a couple of times over the years and I've always dropped it after a couple hours. And yet I'm loving to hate WotR? Something's wrong here.

[ShadySands]

21 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I gave PoE a second chance after playing WotR for the first and managed to beat it, but I got burned out by Deadfire. Despite being more componently made and definitely better looking, I just struggle to get into the PoE games. I can't quite articulate why, but they just don't grab me and eventually it feels more like a chore than something I actually enjoy. Somehow, the shoddily assembled jalopy game works better for me. Go figure.

I don't know why but I have the same issues with the PoE games and I also can't explain it. They just don't click for me for some reason even though on paper they totally should.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

42 minutes ago, 213374U said:

But my internet cred!

Some things aren't worth the pain.

42 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Yeah, similar experience. I've tried to get into PoE a couple of times over the years and I've always dropped it after a couple hours. And yet I'm loving to hate WotR? Something's wrong here.

 

37 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I don't know why but I have the same issues with the PoE games and I also can't explain it. They just don't click for me for some reason even though on paper they totally should.

It's being unable to explain what exactly turns me off that bothers me. I just can't shake the feeling that I should be liking it when I end up throwing in the towel. Just weird.

Anyways I've been going gestalt for the last couple of games and can confirm Sword Saint/Inspired Blade is bonkers.

[Sarex]

Because the gameplay is sterile. There is something to a game having imperfections and being able to fail with your builds (having overpowered builds too). The gameplay doesn't need to be a Swiss watch, it needs to be fun.

Also I imagine that having an already well made system in place (D&D/Pathfinder) takes a lot of the guesswork out of it. Having to make a game and invent a ruleset is not easy.

[HoonDing]

Not getting xp for killing stuff aside, there just seems to be nothing appealing at all about PoE setting.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Because the gameplay is sterile. There is something to a game having imperfections and being able to fail with your builds (having overpowered builds too). The gameplay doesn't need to be a Swiss watch, it needs to be fun.

Also I imagine that having an already well made system in place (D&D/Pathfinder) takes a lot of the guesswork out of it. Having to make a game and invent a ruleset is not easy.

Well if you want a bad build in PoE 1 just pick Rogue. Trash tier class lmao.

But I don't know if I'd call the PiE gameplay sterile per se, in a lot of ways combat is more dynamic than in Pathcat. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that Pillars plays too slow for my tastes, the design overcorrecred too much away from tpks via fireballs to hew to close to wars of attrition via grazes. When I think on it I rarely played the games outside of the fast mode, and Eder 1v1'd some stuff for like 2 minutes once.

Pathcat also has (sometimes limited) respec to get away from bad choices and way too many garbage choices. Part of the shortfalls is inheriting the system, but there's a lot of **** choices that I don't think add anything good to the game.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Well if you want a bad build in PoE 1 just pick Rogue. Trash tier class lmao.

*chuckle*

am pretty certain the first video o' a solo kill o' the adra dragon via path o' the damned were a rogue, so...

the problem insofar as s'posed weak poe classes were with a new system people failed to understand that a poe rogue were so not like rogues from d&d or pathfinder. greatest initial outrage during the beta for poe were related to the fighter, which just kinda stood in the middle o' combat and soaked up damage. everybody knows fighters do damage in combat. the poe paladin were having little in common with a bg2 paladin being more o' a support class. most crpgs has weak arcane spellcasters at low levels who then become world beaters mid-to-late game, but that weren't the case for poe as wizards started out middling powerful and kinda stayed at middle of the pack; effective but not overwhelming. if you wanted to play a poe barbarian, your most important attribute were intelligence?  what? that can't be right. that doesn't feel right. etc.

one o' the obvious mistakes the poe developers made were only obvious after the fact: class nomenclature created false expectations. make a game which is meant to appeal to ie fans, then create poe classes with the same names as ie classes which have attributes and roles extreme different from ie norms ain't gonna work for many fans.

also, while poe2 addressed the feedback issue, poe combats were frenetic, confusing and often unsatisfactory. spell effects tended to be overwhelming particular when stacked so it were difficult to see what were happening during fights, and even if you had the game literal pause after every player or enemy action, it were difficult to decipher why a specific combat action were a success or a fail. were a party wipe the result o' rng or were it bad tactics/strategy? poe were a new system and so combat transparency shoulda' been a premium concern for developers. wasn't. note to developers: do not make your audience feel stoopid or impotent.

also, as a new ip with no voluminous print history to draw 'pon, the developers were gonna necessarily be offering... less. each monster in poe were new. oh sure, poe ogres were kinda like d&d ogres (but not. we got serious slobberknockered by the ogre druid in the endless paths third level... took more than one try to get past that battle,) but it weren't as if obsidian could just port d20 stats for ogres into their new system. everything in poe were needed having start from scratch. not surprising, the diversity o' spells and monsters and everything else were a bit limited compared to bg2 or even iwd. predictable, poe felt smaller than d&d games o' similar duration.

etc.

however, sarex complaints is exact what were the problem for obsidian, 'cause while am sure his issues is heartfelt, they is so utter vague and ambiguous there is nothing actionable for the developer. so sarex wanted poe to be more septic and less like rolex and more like... timex?

what?

as feedback the developers rare got anything more than sarex kinda complaints, or stuff such as we see from kp and shady. which is not a criticism o' sarex, kp or shady. fans don't need articulate exact why they prefer chocolate to vanilla. the non specific complaints o' poe is real and represent obsidian fails to satisfy their customers. even so, not swiss watch and "i can't quite articulate," criticisms is difficult to address.

'course for deadfire the developers did exact opposite o' what the funding response suggested were a likely outcome for deadfire. the fig campaign brought in buckets o' money, but there were far fewer people contributing money for deadfire than were the case o' poe. for deadfire the developers doubled-down on distancing from d20, seeming to choose an appeal to those people who already liked poe as 'posed to trying to grow the hardcore base they had built. fig funding results shoulda' been a huge warning sign for the developers but instead they spent far more money creating a game with necessarily more narrow appeal. doomed from the start. 

poe was most certain not bg 2.5 or bg3. that were the game's biggest shortcoming. poe did combat different and classes different and it awarded xp different, which mighta' been ok, but fans not only believed they had been sold an ie game "spiritual successor,"  but the game had all the trappings and even the visuals  o' the ie games while it felt to many as if the developers were unabashed crushing player expectations. there were no holy avenger or crom feyr in poe. min/max didn't have anywhere near the same payoff in poe as d&d or pathfinder, so subjective good builds didn't look much different from mediocre builds. there were a couple overpowered abilities and spells in poe, but the obsidian developers kept nerfing such stuff. the nerve. a not d20 approach were fine given the hardcore fanbase obsidian had cultivated, but they needed to tailor their expectations to the reality that as they got further from an idealized bg2 successor, their purchasers would shrink. fig funding showed there were plenty o' interest in obsidian's new ip, but management clear overestimated their capacity to grow purchasers by doubling down on what seemed to cheese off kp, shady, sarex and so many others.

is worth noting there is very few o' the hardcore poe fans, people who to this day continue to post on this board, contributing to this thread. obsidan curious didn't realize how with poe they had successful created a hardcore crpg fanbase which nevertheless had little overlap with people who wanted to play games such as kingmaker. obsidian spent far too much on deadfire. 

HA! Good Fun!