The All Things Political Topic - Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities

[ShadySands]

We didn't have school staff that could hit us because that was our parents job. I kid, my mom worked at my school growing up so I was never safe. I kid again, mostly anyway, as my mom wasn't a big spanker and I was good at not getting in trouble.

I also can't think of one situation in school that I think would have been enhanced by a teacher hitting me but maybe I'm just into the wrong stuff.

[Guard Dog]

I was pretty young when I realized that parents, teachers, principals, etc. were not going to hit you hard enough to actually hurt you. Once you grasp that concept that form of punishment is no longer a punishment.  

[Chairchucker]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Especially since in many schools corporal punishment has been outlawed, back in my day you had discipline and kids respected teachers 

@Hurlshot You teachers should protest and demand corporal punishment is allowed, that will address many problems 

It's probably because The Studies have shown that the actual results of corporal punishment is that they're more likely to grow up to be domestic abusers. Corporal punishment is not good.

 

EDIT: Article on one such study that references the overall consensus. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking

TL;DR is that generally speaking, there's no evidence of long term positive results, and there's growing evidence of long term negative results.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Chairchucker

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

The British FM Liz Truss and Russian FM Lavrov had a meeting today. It was... interesting, apparently*. I'd say it was pretty much exactly what you'd expect when one of the more experienced international diplomats meets, well, an idiot trying to look tough for domestic brownie points. Most of the damage done was self inflicted.

Truss didn't know how translators worked, and spent the first part of the meeting speaking over them before being told to shut up and be patient. How you can be a FM and not know that basic level of etiquette is difficult to understand. It's not even a power move, it just makes you look stupid, and as if you simply couldn't be bothered with even the basics. Which was kind of a recurring theme.

She also managed to say that Britain would never recognise Russian sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh. Which are internationally recognised parts of Russia; again a sign of being hopelessly underprepared and worse, it plays perfectly into the Russian narrative. She had to be corrected by the British ambassador, and it wasn't even a trap question since the context was pretty obviously whether Russia was allowed to move troops around Russia. That she apparently thought they were regions of Ukraine was indicative of being hopelessly underprepared but also kind of irrelevant, if you have any pretensions towards competence as a diplomat you always use a generic non answer like "We recognise Russian sovereignty on Russia, but not on Ukraine" for such questions since getting them wrong doesn't make you look tough, but like a moron. It also makes it hard for other diplomats to take you seriously.

(Not her first rodeo, she also somehow managed to say that Baltic Nations were on the Black Sea)

*there's a more detailed take from the FT, which I'd have used but thought would be be paywalled when it isn't.

Financial Times Moscow Bureau chief Max Seddon said the meeting made for uncomfortable viewing. “The public dressing-down Lavrov gave Liz Truss was so brutal, and the gap between them so yawning, you almost have to wonder why they even had the meeting – and Lavrov did indeed wonder that aloud during an excruciating press conference in Moscow,” he tweeted.

 

With people like these... no wonder Johnson is in big trouble on the home front (do they have the 54-7 however many letters yet for an internal "no confidence" vote?). They might want to get rid of him before the next election, or it will almost certainly be a labor government. As for saying the UK would send aid to our “Baltic allies across the Black Sea”:

 

“Mrs Truss, your knowledge of history is nothing compared to your knowledge of geography,” Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Maria Zakharova, wrote in a blog post. “If anyone needs saving from anything, it’s the world, from the stupidity and ignorance of British politicians.”

 

I guess this is what happens when people are in positions of power, not because of any skill, but because of who their friends are?

[Gorth]

Split off a few posts to continue from previous thread:

 

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

It's probably because The Studies have shown that the actual results of corporal punishment is that they're more likely to grow up to be domestic abusers. Corporal punishment is not good.

 

EDIT: Article on one such study that references the overall consensus. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking

TL;DR is that generally speaking, there's no evidence of long term positive results, and there's growing evidence of long term negative results.

But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.

...

In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment

as such am not sure the study your link references says what you believe it says, even with your qualifying edit.

in an extreme brief and shallow internet search which we do not suggest is dispositive o' any kinda consensus, a more recent paper specific addresses at least one o' the concerns voiced by the aforementioned critics-- that "being able to distinguish between reasonable corporal punishment and maltreatment—whether this is formally denominated abuse or neglect—is critical for the relevant actors: parents who use corporal punishment as a disciplinary tool."

however, take heart 'cause the paper linked does go a bit meta with research as o' 2010 and suggests corporal punishment, particular as delivered by a non parent, could be harmful even if is not injurious or abusive.

"This evidence has contributed to an understanding that even apparently moderate forms of corporal punishment like SBS—moderate in the sense that a severe physical injury is not apparent to the average layperson—can have harmful effects that merit intervention, and to a more-comprehensive sense of the consequences of severe corporal punishment. These effects are stronger if the child is young, if the parent–child relationship lacks a grounding in warmth, and if the corporal punishment is repeated across time. Rather than discovering a cut-off level below which corporal punishment has no ill effects, scientists interpret the research findings as indicating that corporal punishment experiences have a cumulative effect that grows proportionately with the amount and severity of punishment."

now keep in mid this meta use o' other studies is not suggesting that corporal punishment has zero beneficial outcomes, but rather there do not appear to be studies which show any consistent findings o' benefit. 

also,

"A review of eighty-eight empirical studies involving 36,309 children has shown that children who have been subjected to moderate corporal punishment display, on average, more-immediate compliance with parental directives but also higher levels of aggressive, delinquent, and antisocial behavior than do children who have not been corporally punished. The causal direction of this association has been called into question because antisocial children might well elicit more corporal punishment or because the same genes that make parents use aggression toward their children may be responsible for their child’s aggression, apart from any causal link between the parenting and the child’s behavior."

but,

"Nuances complicate this picture, however: First, mild corporal punishments do not have a uniform impact on child outcomes across all contexts and circumstances. The parent’s behavior per se is less significant than the meaning of the behavior as interpreted by the child. This meaning is determined by the family context, including chronicity of the act, the contingency of the act on the child’s misbehavior, mitigating factors such as temporary stress and the child’s instigation of the act, and exacerbating factors such as parents’ taunting and psychological abuse. Thus, empirical studies demonstrate that corporal punishment can be helpful, unimportant, or harmful to the child’s development, depending on the meaning ascribed by the child. A limit on this conclusion is that, beyond a certain level of severity of corporal punishment, harmful outcomes are likely to accrue to the child no matter what context surrounds the act or how it is interpreted by the child. This level is not always clear but may be a defining characteristic of physical abuse."

regardless, it would appear that corporal punishment is a bit more complicated than a simple good v. bad, but regardless, if is a child and the punishment is not being administered in a loving relationship (a relationship with a "grounding in warmth") and the punishments is other than mild and o' limited frequency, then the possibility o' long-term harm to the child's development does not appear to be a matter o' much dispute 'mongst those who have expertise on this issue. assuming that many teacher-student will lack the requisite warmth to limit harmful outcomes from corporal punishment, and recognizing that the benefits o' such punishments is difficult to gauge, the arguments in favour o' teachers and administrators delivering corporal punishments does not appear strong to say the least. 

 etc.

am not gonna suggest this single paper more focused on the law side o' the issue is dispositive, but it does go a bit meta with the consensus findings on the topic o' corporal punishments and such findings as presented by the authors do not support the general use o' corporal punishment in a school setting. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 11, 2022 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

Just because its Friday afternoon, I had a few beers and is am in a whimsical mood... spanking explained:

 

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, ShadySands said:

We didn't have school staff that could hit us because that was our parents job. I kid, my mom worked at my school growing up so I was never safe. I kid again, mostly anyway, as my mom wasn't a big spanker and I was good at not getting in trouble.

I also can't think of one situation in school that I think would have been enhanced by a teacher hitting me but maybe I'm just into the wrong stuff.

Im not suggesting all young people would benefit from corporal punishment, I just know it worked for me because I was recalcitrant. You dont seem to be someone who was particularly disruptive 

3 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

It's probably because The Studies have shown that the actual results of corporal punishment is that they're more likely to grow up to be domestic abusers. Corporal punishment is not good.

 

EDIT: Article on one such study that references the overall consensus. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking

TL;DR is that generally speaking, there's no evidence of long term positive results, and there's growing evidence of long term negative results.

These types of articles are the worst examples of why corporal punishment is bad, they ignore the reality in countries that arent first world countries and even make these outrageous suggestions its akin to abuse and can lead to people becoming abusive in later life

Its well meaning but its also  propaganda and I encourage people not to fall for it, you dont need a study like this when myself and millions of other people have lived experience of the benefits of the discipline and respect most  learn through corporal punishment 

A few years ago several civil society groups in SA took government to court to overturn the ban on corporal punishment....sadly we lost but the judges ruling was wrong in this case because they ruled that in our  Constitution violence against children is obviously unconstitutional and for some strange reason decided corporal punishment is violence against children so its illegal. But corporal punishment is not violence against children in the way our Constitution defines, its about discipline. Anyway the point being many South Africans support corporal punishment and I can promise you its not because they mentally unbalanced or violent abusers of  children

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/confirmed-heres-why-spanking-your-child-could-now-land-you-in-jail/

Governments shouldn't get involved on  this level on how families raise children...we dont want to live in a  nanny state 

 

 

[Gromnir]

so, a bit o' the hardcore spankings is the appropriate way to describe the scene. good to know. 

pullo's punishment were extreme light considering drunkards and brawlers got the lashings and one expects striking a superior officer woulda' ranked somewhere 'tween thievery and desertion. 

aside, we initial did an internet search for the "pullo punishment scene."

...

this did not go as we anticipated as the search were populated with pr0n, so perhaps the @Gorth supplied meme is more accurate than we had imagined.

odd aside, remove "scene" from search exorcised the pr0n.  strange algorithm.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we originally observed how "pullo got off extreme easy," and realized only after the fact how such read in the context o' the pr0n stuff.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Gromnir

[Chairchucker]

47 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Its well meaning but its also  propaganda and I encourage people not to fall for it, you dont need a study like this when myself and millions of other people have lived experience of the benefits of the discipline and respect most  learn through corporal punishment

"I can ignore studies if anecdotal evidence serves my pre-existing biases."

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Governments shouldn't get involved on  this level on how families raise children...we dont want to live in a  nanny state 

Maybe too many families use physical punishment as a matter of convenience rather than "educational" reasons? A good beating will sure improve their reading comprehension and math skills, I'm sure. Too many times, children have been beat up to a degree, that would send people to jail if it hadn't been their own kids. Part because it was easy, part because it was legal to do so. Considering the almost borderline sociopaths, people send to schools these days, maybe it's not the children and their behavior that is a problem, but the parents who fail at parenting? As somebody he didn't get beaten/spanked/whatever as a kid, I'm not convinced it made me a bad adult.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

"I can ignore studies if anecdotal evidence serves my pre-existing biases."

Im disappointed you are comfortable handwaving the actual reality and lived experiences of many people in our societies,  you dont make a very convincing argument when you cant support your own view?

47 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Maybe too many families use physical punishment as a matter of convenience rather than "educational" reasons? A good beating will sure improve their reading comprehension and math skills, I'm sure. Too many times, children have been beat up to a degree, that would send people to jail if it hadn't been their own kids. Part because it was easy, part because it was legal to do so. Considering the almost borderline sociopaths, people send to schools these days, maybe it's not the children and their behavior that is a problem, but the parents who fail at parenting? As somebody he didn't get beaten/spanked/whatever as a kid, I'm not convinced it made me a bad adult.

Sure but I am not talking about using corporal punishment as convenience for all  forms of discipline. Many parents I know, including my brothers who have kids, dont believe in corporal punishment (well their wives dont believe in  it ) and their is nothing wrong with their kids so its not mandatory if your children respond to other forms of consequence 

But one of the societal negative outcomes to not having corporal punishment is some  young people leave school with no respect for laws and rules and in RL this is how they conduct themselves

And you say you werent spanked and you not a bad adult, I agree but look at your anarchist tendencies Gorthfuscious ? Dont you think this is related to that, dont you wish you werent so "anti-society " 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

Corporal punishment had been illegal in Finland now 35 years and we are in brink of anarchy, as young people don't have any form respect towards their elders. 

[Gromnir]

can't help but notice a weird alignment o' opinions 'bout corporal punishment and crt (recognizing once again that crt is most certainly not actual being taught to public school kids 'less they has reached at least university, but am not gonna fight that battle at the moment.) please note how more than a few o' those who is thinking crt is too divisive for the kids to learn is nevertheless okie dokie with actual physical punishment o' same kids.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/09/ronald-reagan-dad-taught-me-about-holocaust/

am personal not having an opinion on corporal punishment other than to observe the big brains who s'posed study such is current in agreement that there is a correlative link 'tween antisocial and aggressive behaviour increases when at least moderate corporal punishment is indulged with any kinda frequency, and that w/o grounding warmth in the relationship o' the spanker and spankee, chances o' negative outcomes increase. 

will frequent see it argued how this is something best left to parents. am thinking is unfortunate parents is stuck with the generational reinforcement problem wherein if they experienced corporal punishment as a child, then they is more likely to do unto their progeny regardless o' anything the smarty psychiatrists and sciencey know-it-alls might have to say 'bout the subject. is particular unfortunate for those who were genuine abused as children 'cause having suffered abuse does not in any way reduce the likelihood o' such abuse being practiced on the next generation. opposite.

for practical reasons we cannot and likely shouldn't remove parents from being arbiters on corporal punishment up to the fuzzy line where corporal punishment becomes recognizable as abuse. however, such a recognition does not mean many/most parents is correct, 'cause most parents is a product o' their parents and their parents before them and so on. all too often generational wisdom is a conveniently self-replicating myth.

my daddy gave me whoppins and if he hadn't, i wouldn't have turned into the upstanding man i am today. 

am certain this kinda thinking is widespread, but is not at all logical and given the current science on the matter it appears increasing unreasonable. 

whatever. regardless, am amused by the opinions that crt is dangerous and wrong to be subjecting to young minds but actual physical punishment is all too often deemed okie dokie by the same folks who want maus removed from school bookshelves 'cause is too graphic and is offended 'cause the kite runner is too adult and divisive. the alignment o' opinion on what is dangerous for developing children is kinda weird from our pov.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Corporal punishment had been illegal in Finland now 35 years and we are in brink of anarchy, as young people don't have any form respect towards their elders. 

Elerond please dont confuse our American and Australian friends, everyone knows only the Nordic countries have the right balance between socialism and " Capitalism " 

No other country can do what you guys do successfully and sustainably  so its unfair to make comparisons....the rest of us dont have the same societies, support from citizens  and lack of problems that exist in the Nordic countries 

If you need evidence of why corporal punishment is a good thing you just need to look at me  

[Darkpriest]

For various types of punishment, each type has its place, but none should be abused, as at one point it will lose its effectiveness and in case of physical punishment is just turning into a sadistic action. 

However, there is a reason why as a specie we are rather receptive to pain inducing events. Some level of physical disciplining IS productive, as long as it is used rare and not for trivial issues. It also should not be equated with someone beating the crap out of another. Usually a sudden, swift and strong stimuli confined in a short amount of time is enough to get a point across that something is utterly unacceptable and crossing boundries too far.

[Darkpriest]

From the world of where things actually matter, 

Inflation highest in 40years, market rates going up, rates inverting at some bond rates levels (7s-10s), food and energy prices soaring and much higher rate than CPI - economy growth peaking and now slowibg down, perfect timing for a recession / stagflation happening exactly on the midterms, and the 'progressive' (brain dead with no math skills) wing of democrats wants to pump even more money by even more debt... as if not recognizing that the current situation is a direct result of their policies from early 2021 (should never get extended stimuli and pandemic emergency measures like holding rent payments) , and unnecessary level of restraints (movement and workplace restrins should have been removed the moment Omicron was known to be a much milder version) . Should have also make Powell feel secure in case he would start withdrawing QE in Q2-2021, that he would be re-elected anyway. (he waited until re-election to turn hawkish...) 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

19 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

From the world of where things actually matter, 

Inflation highest in 40years, market rates going up, rates inverting at some bond rates levels (7s-10s), food and energy prices soaring and much higher rate than CPI - economy growth peaking and now slowibg down, perfect timing for a recession / stagflation happening exactly on the midterms, and the 'progressive' (brain dead with no math skills) wing of democrats wants to pump even more money by even more debt... as if not recognizing that the current situation is a direct result of their policies from early 2021 (should never get extended stimuli and pandemic emergency measures like holding rent payments) , and unnecessary level of restraints (movement and workplace restrins should have been removed the moment Omicron was known to be a much milder version) . Should have also make Powell feel secure in case he would start withdrawing QE in Q2-2021, that he would be re-elected anyway. (he waited until re-election to turn hawkish...) 

Im not sure what you believe is the root cause for this  global inflation but its primarily being caused by the pandemic and global economic lockdowns

As economies are coming  back online we have major supply chain issues, high oil price due to demand and shortages of goods and yes all this stimulus from the Democrats hasnt helped 

But its not because of the normal monetary policies of Central Banks, they arent the main cause. This current inflation is due to the lockdowns and its artificial as opposed to systemic like  the causes of the great depression 

[BruceVC]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/10/americas/canada-trucker-protests-covid-thursday/index.html

The illegal protest by Canadian truckers have now blocked a third border into the US

The Canadian authorities need to start arresting more people and addressing this unacceptable anarchy, its impacting both the US and Canadian supply chains and that really cant continue 

[HoonDing]

Aren't those guys on your team? Or is it because they're Kanadan?

[Darkpriest]

30 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/10/americas/canada-trucker-protests-covid-thursday/index.html

The illegal protest by Canadian truckers have now blocked a third border into the US

The Canadian authorities need to start arresting more people and addressing this unacceptable anarchy, its impacting both the US and Canadian supply chains and that really cant continue 

Well, if you will arrest all truckers, it wont solve the issue of not having them transporting goods, will it? 

[Darkpriest]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Im not sure what you believe is the root cause for this  global inflation but its primarily being caused by the pandemic and global economic lockdowns

As economies are coming  back online we have major supply chain issues, high oil price due to demand and shortages of goods and yes all this stimulus from the Democrats hasnt helped 

But its not because of the normal monetary policies of Central Banks, they arent the main cause. This current inflation is due to the lockdowns and its artificial as opposed to systemic like  the causes of the great depression 

It's a combination of effects of too strong restrictions for too long, too much spending driven by excessive debt, too much money produced by central banks to support crazy policies. 

That, plus add social conflict and political tribalizm, both national and international. 

Energy prices are a self induced problem by political activists thinking that you can will an energy transition into an existence, without a realistic plan and effects on various branches of economy using various byproducts of carbon based energy sources (such as fertilizers for example). 

Unfortuntely dumb activists lack sufficient foresight in their plans. The current gen of 20-30s is a bunch of 'i want it now' spoiled brats... 

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Aren't those guys on your team? Or is it because they're Kanadan?

Hoonding you should by now I dont support any illegal or legal protest that is going to harm the economy, you must always think of the poor and inequality 

 

3 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Well, if you will arrest all truckers, it wont solve the issue of not having them transporting goods, will it? 

No, my friend. You dont understand, living in SA we have had years of dealing with violent and destructive protests and their is a proven formulae to end these types of protests. You arrest and prosecute some of the protestors, not all of them. Once people see their is real consequence for criminality the rest will stop their actions. Its the same successful approach you use with any BLM protests where people  break the law 

But you right, you definitely dont want to arrest all the truckers, I dont think Canada has the resources for that anyway ?

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Well, if you will arrest all truckers, it wont solve the issue of not having them transporting goods, will it? 

These are still a low percentage of truckers. in Ottawa a good portion of truckers left to go back to work.  Most of the protestors seem to have other jobs, well or had them based on the many that say they had to resign due to vaccine requirements at work.  As a thought experiment I wondered how this would go down in a US city, honking all hours of the night, etc.  Probably get blasted

 

2 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Aren't those guys on your team? Or is it because they're Kanadan?

They're mostly angry WASPs, Bruce should be onside with them.

[Hurlshort]

6 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

For various types of punishment, each type has its place, but none should be abused, as at one point it will lose its effectiveness and in case of physical punishment is just turning into a sadistic action. 

However, there is a reason why as a specie we are rather receptive to pain inducing events. Some level of physical disciplining IS productive, as long as it is used rare and not for trivial issues. It also should not be equated with someone beating the crap out of another. Usually a sudden, swift and strong stimuli confined in a short amount of time is enough to get a point across that something is utterly unacceptable and crossing boundries too far.

This is an interesting argument, much like learning the stove is hot by getting burned. But in terms of discipline, couldn't you get the same pain inducement by making a student run a lap or do push-ups?