Politics... US election edition

[Chairchucker]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Guys, if it is at all possible, when you respond to characters as above, could you please use an @(name) instead of quoting them?

No, get over it.

 

Oh wait you managed to filter it anyway, hooray.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Chairchucker

[rjshae]

17 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Well it's not like the U.S. was 100% a free and democratic society even before Trump so fretting over electoral conclusions is such a misnomer.  Watch Biden turn into Trump within a few months of taking office.  Only scarier is that he has the mainstream media on his side covering up his vile racist actions.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Certainly that was true for Trump, and now it's true of Biden.

[Hurlshort]

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

The hardest part about this whole fraud argument isn't whether it exists or not, it is trying to explain why it is statistically relevant or not. We have 200 million votes being counted on election day. There are going to be mistakes, there are going to be cheaters, and there are going to be morons.  But are they statistically important to the end result? 

[rjshae]

14 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Joe Biden claiming he will not concede untill all votes are counted and all legal options are used - great.

Except he didn't actually say that; Hillary recommended it as a course of action. Remember?

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

The hardest part about this whole fraud argument isn't whether it exists or not, it is trying to explain why it is statistically relevant or not. We have 200 million votes being counted on election day. There are going to be mistakes, there are going to be cheaters, and there are going to be morons.  But are they statistically important to the end result? 

fyi, heritage has a curious definition o'"recent."

forty years.

1298 state and fed instances o' voter fraud in forty years. literal billions o' ballots.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[Skarpen]

6 hours ago, rjshae said:

Except he didn't actually say that; Hillary recommended it as a course of action. Remember?

Heh, yeah HC said that he shouldn't under any circumstances and she was also cheered for that, remember?

But he also did in presidential debate. Something along the line: here is the deal, every vote counted, any doubt removed and then we can declare, remember?

[rjshae]

6 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

But he also did in presidential debate. Something along the line: here is the deal, every vote counted, any doubt removed and then we can declare, remember?

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/joe-biden-2020-election-night-speech-transcript

Which is not the same thing as never conceding, right?

[Gromnir]

quick legal update:

y'know how the trump campaign has been complaining 'bout the inability o' their people to material observe the ballot counting process in philadelphia? has been many tweets from trump proclaiming how such interference were affecting hundreds of thousands o' ballots and that such behaviour were illegal and unconstitutional.

well, the trump campaign redlined their lawsuit and removed any mention o' republicans being denied a meaningful opportunity to observe the ballot counting in pennsylvania.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ev6nac59w8lc4mk/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.125.1.pdf?dl=0

so...

what remains in pennsylvania is an argument over the curing o' mail-in ballots. affects a relative small number o' ballots... nowhere near the 68k vote differential. m00t.

the ballot curing bit is kinda a curious argument but is not complete w/o merit, save for recognition o' m00tness and fact a fed judge reviewed nominal the same issue earlier and were extreme reluctant to disenfranchise voters based on what amounted to red counties choosing not to use an option available to all counties. is not a fraud issue, but there were a ballot curing process put in place which many predominant blue counties took advantage o' in limited numbers. almost no red counties used the ballot curing option. the argument is that there is an equal protection claim resulting as different voters in different places in the state were treated different. 

am tending to believe this is also an example o' a lawsuit which should be disallowed by laches. the ballot curing methods in montgomery and philadelphia is not new in 2020. republicans knew 'bout the ballot curing methods previous to the election and chose not to question 'em at the time. wait 'til after the election to raise the issue is gonna be getting the skunk eye from many/most judges particular as the result would potential disenfranchise somewhere between a few hundred and a thousand voters statewide.

the equal protection claim related to curing o' mail-in ballots is not a complete frivolous lawsuit... save for recognition o' it being moot.

...

what is still on the table? in michigan there remains a fed lawsuit, but the near identical state lawsuit were already dismissed, and the fed option is weaker. so other than fanciful dominion voting machines conspiracy theories, which ain't actual been the subject o' a lawsuit, am curious to see what new theory the trump campaign could advance at this late date.

HA! Good Fun!

ps there is one additional pa case we didn't mention in the 'bove post. we have referenced previous how the trump campaign is arguing the entire balance o' pennsylvania mail-in-ballots should be disallowed... 'cause? ultimate hail mary as the state legislature voted in favor o' the expansion o' mail-in-ballots earlier this year.  is not as if the secretary o' state or governor unilateral implemented. would not be shocked if this lawsuit were withdrawn monday.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Gromnir

[Skarpen]

2 hours ago, rjshae said:

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/joe-biden-2020-election-night-speech-transcript

Which is not the same thing as never conceding, right?

Election night speech is not the same thing as presidential debate, right?

[majestic]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

quick legal update:

snip

Somehow all of this reminds me of our last presidential election (but our president is little more than a ceremonial figurehead). The final tally without mail-in ballots had the right wing nationalist candidate lead by 52 to 48, but projections showed his opponent, an independent runner formerly of the Green party leading after the full count. Not by enough to definitely call it, but enough to see him winning with significant probability. Because statistically mail-in ballots in Austria strongly favor the Green party more than any other, followed by center-left and left wing parties, i.e. all voters with an interest in not having a right wing nationalist as president.

Directly after the election the right wingers were posting on Twitter and Facebook that "strange things" were happening with the voting process. Breitbart London even covered the ongoing election fraud, being all up in arms about exit polls being used to declare a winner and posting pictures of the actual tally without mail-in ballots as proof that something strange was indeed going on. Then someone posted pictures of people calculating that some districts had an above 100% voter turnout. This is simply because mail-in ballots are added to the figures (as a separate value, mind) to the turnout of whatever district they are counted in, and they're consolidated and brought to districts with the infrastructure to handle them. That can - and often does - push the amount of votes in a district above the maximum of eligible voters in the district.

But extrapolations are not exit polls... and no winner was declared yet - but when did details ever matter to those who see a conspiracy in everything?

The other candidate won by .2% and the election was contested by his opponent citing irregularities in the mail-in ballot process as the reason. There were irregularities all right. Mail-in ballots are supposed to be counted on the Monday after the election (our elections are always on Sundays) but some districts already counted them on Sunday and only entered the final tally on Monday. Some were opened on Sunday already but counted on Monday, opening them up to manipulation (in theory, if someone were to break in and switch the ballots over night).

For the vote counting each party involved can (and ususally does) send an observer. Everyone involved in the counting afterwards signs a written statement that everything went in accordance with voting law. Which obviously was a lie for the districts that counted early or opened the ballots on Sunday already. In every district that was contested, the Freedom party observers and counters signed the written statement without protest.

The subsequent investigation showed that even if every irregularily counted mail-in ballot would have been manipulated to be in favor of the Green party candidate he would still have won. Not enough mail-in ballots were handled irregularily for this to be an issue.

The supreme court chose to overturn the election anyway. Because reasons ("this undermines the people's trust in the democratic process, even though the outcome is not in doubt"). We essentially had to vote a second time to silence people spewing conspiracy theories. As if such a thing is at all possible.

We voted a second time, and the Freedom party lost bigly. Bigly enough to call the race even before mail-in ballots were counted. Which I found hilarious, if it wouldn't have been such a waste of tax money. The conspiracy theorists just said that this election was simply manipulated with greater care than the last one. Haw haw. Way to go supreme court, way to go.

[Guard Dog]

@Achilles& @ComradeMasterremind to explain to you guys again how libertarianism and free market economics is NOT anarchy. Also federalism is NOT anarchy. The 50 states, 14 territories, and DC do have governing powers and enumerated responsibilities and CAN function quite well without Leviathan-on-the-Potomac f----g everything up. 

[Pidesco]

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

@Achilles& @ComradeMasterremind to explain to you guys again how libertarianism and free market economics is NOT anarchy. Also federalism is NOT anarchy. The 50 states, 14 territories, and DC do have governing powers and enumerated responsibilities and CAN function quite well without Leviathan-on-the-Potomac f----g everything up. 

Well, that's just a weird belief because most American states are about as large as almost any other country in the world and are as detached from actual people on the ground as any other government, including the US Federal government. If you lived in, say, Norway, would you be against the Norwegian government but in favor of your local municipal government? If you were in Portugal, would you be in favor of the Portuguese government but against the EU government? Is the US actually country or a union of countries, by your estimation? Is the distinction between a government 500 miles away and a government 1000 miles away meaningless for a guy who lives alone(with a bunch of really cool dogs) in the woods somewhere?

 

Anyway, some libertarians at work:

https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

@Achilles& @ComradeMasterremind to explain to you guys again how libertarianism and free market economics is NOT anarchy. Also federalism is NOT anarchy. The 50 states, 14 territories, and DC do have governing powers and enumerated responsibilities and CAN function quite well without Leviathan-on-the-Potomac f----g everything up. 

Of course it is. Anyone who's taken their nose out of Atlas Shrugged long enough to see how the real world actually works knows this.

The final sentence in your post is the funniest thing I'll read today. Bravo.

EDIT

Consider this: you and I share a love of books. Based on some of the exchanges we've had, I think it's fair to say that our tastes even overlap at times. For the sake of argument, assume for a moment that you and I are the most well-read members of the forum (not likely, but we're having thought experiment time right now). The fact that you and I can't agree on the most important take aways from the same ****ing books should tell you a lot about how foolishly optimistic your post sounds. We can't even get people to not cheat on **** that doesn't matter, yet it's realistic to think that bad actors will somehow regulate themselves in a free market? Come on, man.

@Pidesco Libertarian football:

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Achilles

[rjshae]

9 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Election night speech is not the same thing as presidential debate, right?

Do you have a transcript to back up your assertion? I'd rather skip listening to the Trumpian drivel.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/10/23/debate-transcript-trump-biden-final-presidential-debate-nashville/3740152001/

I searched but I couldn't find anything relevant.

Edited November 16, 2020 by rjshae

[Hurlshort]

What is this?

[Guest]

Evidence of a stable genius

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Pidesco said:

If you were in Portugal, would you be in favor of the Portuguese government but against the EU government?

Ask the Greeks. 

[Pidesco]

5 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Ask the Greeks. 

As I understand it they hate both.

[Malcador]

13 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

What is this?

Cause to invoke the 25th 

[InsaneCommander]

24 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

What is this?

Getting drunk after finally accepting defeat?

[Elerond]

28 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

What is this?

Twitter suppressing loved leader's speech 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

28 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

What is this?

It's Twitter showing how much of their current policy is bending over backwards to avoid banning one account.

[Gromnir]

41 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

It's Twitter showing how much of their current policy is bending over backwards to avoid banning one account.

that changes january 21, 2021. 

we did not mention a wisconsin fed lawsuit previous 'cause it were only kinda/sorta a lawsuit... and now it ain't even a schrodinger thought experiment.  lawyers filed an election fraud fed lawsuit w/o any supporting affidavits or factual support but claimed the missing meat would be forthcoming. we were kinda waiting for the forthcoming. were much akin to the pa lawsuit which is attempting to invalidate mail-in ballots en masse, but again, were making no offering o' proof.

forthcoming never happened and this morning the wi lawsuit were voluntarily dismissed by plaintiffs.

not related to any lawsuit, but almost as funny...

trump as homelander kinda works... though need make fat, orange and take away all homelander superpowers and replace with a sorta knock-off maxwell lord mind control which only affects americans who is white and working class.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Gromnir

[ComradeYellow]

Meanwhile, in lefty land:

 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

What is this?

I wonder when my Tampa Bay rays world championship T-shirts are going on sale? Seems to be taking a long time