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Politics... US election edition


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6 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Was there ever?

Well there was the Democrats back in Thomas Jefferson’s day. The Whig party some of the time. The republican party off and  on following World War II. And if you are fond of shaggy dog stories  is there is the Libertarian party.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Could Trump Stage a Coup

this is the kind of news reporting I would normally scoff at. But nothing is normal this year. But no, LOL, he’s not going to do that no one would ever support him even if he wanted to

I dunno, he could rally the MAGA legions to him. 😛

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Well, the Libertarian party obviously doesn't count, unless "Libertarian Party" is a petit nom for Ron Paul.

As for the Republican party after WWII, I have to wonder when exactly was it the party of limited government, especially when it was in power. The only possibility is the Reagan administration, I guess?

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11 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Well, the Libertarian party obviously doesn't count, unless "Libertarian Party" is a petit nom for Ron Paul.

As for the Republican party after WWII, I have to wonder when exactly was it the party of limited government, especially when it was in power. The only possibility is the Reagan administration, I guess?

Eisenhower. More limited than under Bush in 88 anyway. Certainly more than anything that came after

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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I'd say Eisenhower was the opposite of limited government, if one's standard is GOP small government rhetoric of the past 40 years or so. Courtesy of Wikipedia:

Quote

Eisenhower continued New Deal programs, expanded Social Security, and prioritized a balanced budget over tax cuts.

Income tax rates were much higher back then, of course.

"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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50 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Well there was the Democrats back in Thomas Jefferson’s day.

When half of them supported slavery?

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6 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

When half of them supported slavery?

Well, the notion of limited government is, sometimes, a known dog whistle. Kinda like a softer "the civil war was actually about states rights".

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I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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30 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Well, the notion of limited government is, sometimes, a known dog whistle. Kinda like a softer "the civil war was actually about states rights".

No actually it’s not like that at all.

Edited by Guard Dog

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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4 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

No actually it’s not like that at allNo actually it’s not like that at all

Echo, echo, echo

 

Also, I'm not saying it is for you. A lot of Libertarians are by all accounts honest in their wish for actual limited government. GOP support for it is a completely different deal, though, belied by the fact that they jettison the notion depending on what's politically convenient.

"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
Heja Sverige!!
Everyone should cuffawkle more.
The wrench is your friend. :bat:

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3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

I would not say opposition to both candidates leads to a center position. But I also would not call opposition to either or both candidates faulty reasoning. Political affiliations are not a mathematical proof. There is no single correct answer. For someone who values limited and constitutional government and personal liberty there are ample reasons to oppose both candidates. Indeed the logical reasoning of such a voter can lead to little else that mutual opposition. To support one or the other such a voter must begin to make compromises on their beliefs. What will they trade in return for what. Speaking for myself alone I refused to betray my personal ethics to support a lesser evil. I do not consider that a vice and my reasoning was not faulty.  To suggest someone who came to a different conclusion did so by faulty reasoning is a tad arrogant. 

Wow. You seem triggered.

Did you read what I was responding to for context?

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

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42 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Echo, echo, echo

 

Also, I'm not saying it is for you. A lot of Libertarians are by all accounts honest in their wish for actual limited government. GOP support for it is a completely different deal, though, belied by the fact that they jettison the notion depending on what's politically convenient.

Can’t argue that point

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/11/mississippi-secede-election-republican/

For a bit of humour at this time.  Probably should let them go, if their politicians can't even use English correctly 😛

 

 

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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6 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/11/mississippi-secede-election-republican/

For a bit of humour at this time.  Probably should let them go, if their politicians can't even use English correctly 😛

Speaking of humor...

‘Fraud Street Run’ from Four Seasons Total Landscaping raises thousands for Philabundance

 

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Biden now up by about 0.75% in Pennsylvania, or a little over 50k votes. 0.5% is the margin for an automatic recount. Biden now up to a 14k margin in Georgia as well, and Arizona looks increasingly likely it'll stick to Biden as Trump misses the marks he needs as well as votes left to count. Courts have been throwing Trump's frivolous lawsuits left and right. 306 looking like Biden's number - the same "landslide" win Trump had back in 2016 (ignore that 20k votes decided Wisconsin, ~15k Georgia, and maybe 10k Arizona this election; and 11k Michigan, 20k Wisconsin, and 40k Pennsylvania in 2016).

Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

Quote

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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quick update on trump legal claims:

a pennsylvania court agreed the secretary of state did not have the authority to unilateral extend the date when ballots could be submitted. this does not invalidate those votes, as voters reasonably relied on the secretary o' state. regardless, it makes it less likely the sequestered votes received after the original election date deadline will be counted. ~10k.

biden is current ahead by 54k, so the sequestered votes are not actual relevant to the Presidential race. this case only has relevancy to down ballot state races.

the other pennsylvania cases have not fared well in Court and there hasn't been a new claim. am gonna keep watching but so far the biggest news from pennsylvania regarding non-sequestered votes were the usps employee who recanted a claim o' witnessing fraud by a supervisor.

as we type, an arizona judge is expressing a bit o' frustration with trump lawyers. turns out the case in question would possibly affect 191 votes... total.  

'ccording to trump campaign lawyers, "this is not a fraud case. we are not alleging fraud. we are not saying anyone is trying to steal the election."

trump campaign is  suggesting there were, "good faith" errors. 

voter witnesses is admitting that they became convinced that their vote for trump didn't count either based on conversations with family members, internet research or 'cause o' attorney advice.

a couple poll watcher witnesses has now testified that they didn't actual see anything nefarious, however there is a curious argument over red v. green button depression by poll workers. the trump poll watchers don't know if the pressing o' a green button were a bad thing, but they saw it happen numerous times. 

is getting kinda close to rule 11(b) territory.

trump campaign just rested.  will update if anything further happens, but were not a good day for trump in az.

...

michigan is...

the latests michigan case were filed not in michigan but in the dc court of federal claims. if a plaintiff is making a monetary claim 'gainst the fed government, then the court o' federal claims is having jurisdiction.

...

am admitted confused.

however, michigan is kinda unique in that certification requires an okie dokie from a bipartisan commission o' two democrats and two republicans. if both republicans decide not to certify, then there is no certification and the state legislature needs decide the outcome o' the state election. red state legislature. regardless o' court cases and evidence, all that needs happen in mi is for two republicans to claim there were enough suspicious activity to prevent certification. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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5dyzl5sj0vy51.png

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Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

Quote

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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58 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

5dyzl5sj0vy51.png

I believe "I didn't vote" won the popular vote last time. Too bad the interstate electoral compact wasn't dominant then, "I didn't vote" would have made a much better occupant of the WH than Trump or Clinton.

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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

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On 11/11/2020 at 8:28 PM, Zoraptor said:

At least Trump will still hold the record for the largest inauguration crowd...

The way 2020 has gone I'm half expecting Biden to drop dead before the results are finalised to add some extra spice to the mix.

Yeah that generation seems to be dying off pretty rapidly lately.  I'm just imaging him and Bernie keeling over at any moment.

We'd have a black female cop as POTUS.  Wouldn't that trigger elements of both parties?  Democratic Party extremists hate cops and Republican Party extremists hate women and people of color.

Edited by ComradeMaster
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"America would be unrecognizable if it had ordered the separation of corporation and state like it orders separation of church and state."

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I apologize in advance.  (the video creator's channel is full of these...they're hilarious).

 

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“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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quick legal update: 

--the mi case which were filed in the dc court of federal claims was "transferred" to the mi fed district court... where the case had already been filed. lawyers blamed the filing mistake on a software error.

sure.

the state case related to what were described as widespread voter irregularities in detroit counties were dismissed today. the judge specific noted any ruling w/o going through the legislative mandated certification process would amount to improper judicial activism.

am not certain exact when the fed case is scheduled to be heard in mi, but making the claims o' election shenanigans a fed case were always kinda a hail mary. not equal protection or due process claims save by stretching meaning o' the law to a tortured extreme. were always far more likely to get a sympathetic judge in a state case.

--the maricopa, az case we mentioned yesterday were withdrawn by the trump campaign today. moot. as we noted yesterday, it became apparent the sharpiegate and red-green button concerns would only affect, at most, 191 ballots.  biden is likely to win az by ~10k. pointless to argue over 191. moot.

am suspecting the judge gave the trump campaign a chance to withdraw or need suffer a what woulda' been a particularly caustic dismissal. am not sure if we adequate conveyed how bad the testimony went for trump in az yesterday. were cringeworthy and by the end o' the day we were actual expecting rule 11 sanctions for the trump campaign lawyers.

-- in pennsylvania...

am honest not certain where relevant cases stand as is kinda confusing what claims has been dropped or resubmitted. will know more by the end o' the day. 

Trump lawyers withdraw from key Pennsylvania case challenging vote count

"On Tuesday, the firm took down its Twitter account amid a barrage of negative attention from users on the platform critical of the firm’s work with the president. In a statement, a spokesperson noted Porter Wright’s “long history of election law work” on behalf of Democratic, Republican and independent candidates."

the other marquee firm representing the trump campaign in pennsylvania is jones day. there have been protests outside jones day offices 'cross the country, but am gonna admit we would be shocked if the j/d lawyers withdrew. 

...

will update later if there is new news or if we can figure out more 'bout where things stand in pennsylvania.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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22 hours ago, Gromnir said:

quick update on trump legal claims:

a pennsylvania court agreed the secretary of state did not have the authority to unilateral extend the date when ballots could be submitted. this does not invalidate those votes, as voters reasonably relied on the secretary o' state. regardless, it makes it less likely the sequestered votes received after the original election date deadline will be counted. ~10k.

biden is current ahead by 54k, so the sequestered votes are not actual relevant to the Presidential race. this case only has relevancy to down ballot state races.

the other pennsylvania cases have not fared well in Court and there hasn't been a new claim. am gonna keep watching but so far the biggest news from pennsylvania regarding non-sequestered votes were the usps employee who recanted a claim o' witnessing fraud by a supervisor.

as we type, an arizona judge is expressing a bit o' frustration with trump lawyers. turns out the case in question would possibly affect 191 votes... total.  

'ccording to trump campaign lawyers, "this is not a fraud case. we are not alleging fraud. we are not saying anyone is trying to steal the election."

trump campaign is  suggesting there were, "good faith" errors. 

voter witnesses is admitting that they became convinced that their vote for trump didn't count either based on conversations with family members, internet research or 'cause o' attorney advice.

a couple poll watcher witnesses has now testified that they didn't actual see anything nefarious, however there is a curious argument over red v. green button depression by poll workers. the trump poll watchers don't know if the pressing o' a green button were a bad thing, but they saw it happen numerous times. 

is getting kinda close to rule 11(b) territory.

trump campaign just rested.  will update if anything further happens, but were not a good day for trump in az.

...

michigan is...

the latests michigan case were filed not in michigan but in the dc court of federal claims. if a plaintiff is making a monetary claim 'gainst the fed government, then the court o' federal claims is having jurisdiction.

...

am admitted confused.

however, michigan is kinda unique in that certification requires an okie dokie from a bipartisan commission o' two democrats and two republicans. if both republicans decide not to certify, then there is no certification and the state legislature needs decide the outcome o' the state election. red state legislature. regardless o' court cases and evidence, all that needs happen in mi is for two republicans to claim there were enough suspicious activity to prevent certification. 

HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir I have been waiting to ask you how you feel about the Biden victory? I then thought you probably not going to assume he won until the count is actually over....and in certain circumstances this could be the correct response any lawyer would take who believes you have to wait till the final count is declared, you dont want to be seen as jumping the gun in such an important election

But I have good news that should alleviate your reticence to comment. CNN has done some serious fair number analysis and there polling experts have said Trump cant possibly win in the recounts because the margins are too great?

So maybe I can ask a different question, if Biden wins what happens to Barr? Would Biden fire him....can he do it and it seems hard to believe Barr would drive a Democrat agenda? I believe he is a professional and it will be interesting to see how he proceeds

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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update on lawsuits:

pennsylvania

3rd circuit court of appeals (3rd circuit covers pennsylvania... as well as delaware, new jersey and the virgin islands) threw out a sequestered votes case 'cause plaintiffs lacked standing... and 'cause the claim were stoopid. were a chastising tone from the court which did not go unnoticed.

a montgomery county case which woulda' tossed 59 ballots 'cause address on one o' the envelopes were (PA uses two envelopes) not legible or partial omitted. the judge in the case rejected the trump campaign claim noting that while there were an entry for the address on the secondary envelope, state law didn't require the address be added to the envelope.

philadelphia county court o' common pleas dealt with a case which were similar to the montgomery case related to minor omissions o' non-requisite info. coulda' affected a few thousand ballots. judge tossed.

there is at least one more major pa case, but we won't be able to communicate results 'til next week. in the as yet unresolved case, the trump campaign is attempting to invalidate the entire vote-by-mail results for pa? will try and read up on this one but at first blush am reluctant to find much merit in a theory which would disenfranchise millions o' voters. the state legislature voted to implement an excuse-free mail-in-ballot scheme during a pandemic. is not at all like the sequestered vote situation where the secretary o' state made a decision on their own. the pa state legislature voted to make the change for more widespread mail-in and the governor signed law. am unsure what legal theory is being advocated by the plaintiffs, but we will review.

@BruceVC

if barr has not already quit, am expecting one o' the first orders o' business for biden will be to fire barr and replace him with an acting ag. is no more difficult for biden to fire barr than for trump to do so. 

barr is dangerous. if he were to maintain intellectual honesty, he would be no less dangerous under a democrat President. 

non issue as barr is unlikely to be around much past january 20, 2021, and might very well be quits before that date.

...

now that ga and az has been called...

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I'm sure you guys are completely ruining Putin's day with all these legal updates... what's a poor autocrat to do without his sock puppet running a rival country into the ground. Instead of being able to sic them on each other, he'll have to deal with both China and The US at the same time 😢

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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