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4 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

You could have just said "I think it's ok when we do it" instead of trying those mental gymnastics lmao.

No, because what you described is not ok, however no such situation happened, that someone was disappeared by unmarked state aparatus in US during the riots. 

I'm sure that such things could have happened in US, but those would most likely not see the light of the news and be related to espionage or other clandestine activities

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12 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Sure, there are, but they usually get twisted in time and become such. Best case scenario they lead to economic stagnation. 

On the other hand, I cannot find a non-socialist, non-monarchy, conservative/traditionalists goverment supporting free market and free speech doing something bad, other than economic growth being divided disproportionally towards the asset owners. 

Not sure they get twisted. I doubt Pinochet was much better than people see him as now.  He's also a good counter example as well.  Certainly did want to control what people talk about - maybe reward them with a helicopter trip.

 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

@Gromnir

 

I know, that locally, one of employees of a big corp, started to confront publically a political meesaging of the corp, and claimed he feels opressed and discriminated and quoted paragraphs from a bible. The company in question decides to remove him, and his messages. Later on, the company got prosecuted, lost and had to pay fines, fees in damages and reinstate the employee to his previously occupied position. 

gonna need more details. you are not being specific.

in the US your situation, which is missing far too many details, is actual a labor law issue more than free speech. as an employee, at common law, you owe a duty o' loyalty to your employer. scope o' such duty has been altered by states. that said, if a USA walmart employee, in a USA walmart decided to confront walmart shoppers with the accusations o' political malfeasance o' walmart, he could and likely would be fired. in california, you cannot fire an employee because they attended a protest, unless they missed work or somehow the protests interfered with the business o' the employer. 

government employees is different and is gonna depend on situation. details.

but again, like it or not, facebook and twitter is still private services.  use facebook to protest is not same as going to a public park, stepping up on a soapbox and letting loose on radical democrats, antifa, trump, far right militias or even dunkin freaking donuts. just as walmart need not give you license to make appeals to its customers, so too does facebook and twitter have rights to control messaging with their service.

am not gonna access a zero hedge link w/o making sure we have powerful delousing agents on hand. am not sure what is the specific hearing complaints being raised.

that said, we already offered perspective on what were to be the inevitable p00p parade which is the acb hearings before such happened.

democrats is using the most recent republican Court hypocrisy not to slow or prevent acb nomination but rather as a campaign opportunity. an acb addition to the Court does indeed threaten any number o' things and previous Court decisions which has American approval.  roe? griswold? obergefell? even lawrence v. texas is in jeopardy, which will no doubt please more than a few red state evangelicals, but it won't help with the majority o' suburban women whom trump needs to vote his way in 2020. most immediate and troubling, Americans is reminded from moment to moment how acb threatens their health care, 'cause trump cannot replace obamacare by executive order.

acb hearings is no more precedent setting than were republican reluctance to vote on a Justice nomination during an election year. unfortunate, acb hearings is illustrative o' just how far political discourse in this nation has eroded, particular in the last couple decades.

the acb hearings is only surprising in that there ain't been any real surprises-- has all gone complete according to script.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 minute ago, Darkpriest said:

No, because what you described is not ok, however no such situation happened, that someone was disappeared by unmarked state aparatus in US during the riots. 

It is what happened, you just did an ad hoc cope and justified it. I guess you only like freedom when it suits you.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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19 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

It is what happened, you just did an ad hoc cope and justified it. I guess you only like freedom when it suits you.

Who disappeared and with a last sighting of that person being taken by an unidentified individual? If it was unidentified, then how was the tracing done to connect the individual to the state aparatus? 

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28 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Not sure they get twisted. I doubt Pinochet was much better than people see him as now.  He's also a good counter example as well.  Certainly did want to control what people talk about - maybe reward them with a helicopter trip.

 

Almost there, but missing social freedoms. 

The economic reforms were not tragic though, and good enough that they were continued even after he "left" the office. Comparing Chile the rest of that region? 

I would not endorse that rule though. 

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Twitter should just ban all politicians. Or anyone that talks about politics.

 

This might be why I don't run a social media company. 

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52 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Who disappeared and with a last sighting of that person being taken by an unidentified individual? If it was unidentified, then how was the tracing done to connect the individual to the state aparatus? 

This weaseling to get around admitting your support for authoritarian use of force is sad. This is made all the worse by equating a private company enforcing a TOS agreement with state repression, and is outright puzzling when coming from someone who is otherwise a free market stan. I guess "freedom for me, but not for thee" is a hard thing to admit to, but it's absolute 🤡💩

35 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Twitter should just ban all politicians. Or anyone that talks about politics.

 

This might be why I don't run a social media company. 

I think people should just delete twitter because it's a massive waste of time and most people seem angrier or more depressed after using it.

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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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republicans is desperate clinging to the old playbook. they is gonna drum up as much outrage and fear as possible before the election. muslims, immigrants and the deep state were the targets in 2016. little changed from 2016 in spite o' covid-19 realities. this year we is s'posed to be afeared o' fellow americans such as blm, antifa, radical socialist democrats... and the deep state. throw in twitter and facebook? maybe suggest social media is trying to take away second amendment rights? 

unmasking flopped. multiple senate investigations uncovered nothing. the durham investigation doesn't appear to be a factor. etc. all the fed efforts to create the outrage trump needs has so far failed miserable, and situation has only gotten more ridiculous with giuliani. 

White House was warned Giuliani was target of Russian intelligence operation to feed misinformation to Trump

is only a couple weeks left to save trump and any number o'  Congressional republicans from the admitted unfortunate retribution which appears increasing likely come january o' 2021.

...

y'know, trump getting covid-19 were indeed a gift from God for his political fortunes, but he wasted it. trump coulda' become more serious 'bout covid-19 and healthcare after personal suffering from a disease which has killed 220k Americans and his base woulda' remained loyal. however, switching gears on healthcare and covid woulda' given older voters and suburban women an excuse to overlook all trump's other fails. is indeed many older voters and suburban women who is concerned 'bout law and order issues, but they simultaneous don't like the bigoted and covid-stoopid trump.

the President doing the improbable and embracing a mea culpa on covid-19 woulda' been blasted by democrats particular on the far left. "how can he apologize to the more than two hundred thousand dead and their families?" etc. 

so what? wouldn't matter if left maintained course and criticized trump. however, if trump had altered the narrative on covid, he coulda' done the improbable and changed more than a few voter opinions in the 11th hour. 

survive covid-19, as terrible as it sounds, were indeed a gift from God for a politician so far behind in polls in most battleground states. wasted. couldn't admit he were wrong. didn't wanna appear weak. he had a reset button handed to him in october for chrissakes, and he threw it away to maintain his image? waste.

instead, we get these pathetic but understandable last gasp efforts to appeal to fear and outrage. twitter. blm. hillary's emails?

CDC estimates up to 240,000 total COVID-19 deaths by Nov. 7

once daily death counts surge, which is predictable given the past week o' increased hospitalizations and positivity rates in places such as florida, all the fake outrage is gonna be overtaken by real and genuine fear that the prognostications o' 400k dead by january is all too likely. 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I used to think politics was so important. That our very lives and fortunes hinged on the outcomes of elections. In the 80's you'd hear s--t like that from time to time. Nowdays it's all you hear. But it's really not true. All victories and defeats are fleeting. When Obama won with a super majority in Congress I thought we were well and truly f----d. We got some bad law rammed down our throats but such political alignments are always temporary. In 2010 the pendulum swung back the other way.

Im not voting for either Trump or Biden. I have no use for either of them. If I had to pick one it would be Trump. Only because the Democrats are likely to sweep both houses of Congress and no good will come of having a Democrat down the street in the White House. Since I really started following politics in 1984 this is the first time I've been completely indifferent about the outcome of the election. 

But, I have seen with what little wisdom the world is governed. Trading on fool for another is no bargain. 

Edited by Guard Dog

Get off my lawn!

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5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

 

OTOH that was exactly what the western powers hoped for. Much as the M-R pact was appeasement by the Soviets Munich was appeasement by the western allies, and it was that which convinced Stalin that the allies would not be reliable. The Soviet strategy was to delay fighting Germany as long as possible- but that was also the western allies' strategy too with both sides trying appeasement. The Soviets were just more successful.

The Soviets had also been trying to get some sort of unified response to Nazism for ages. Sure, it's understandable that the western allies weren't enthusiastic about much to do with the soviets, but they also did almost nothing at all independently against the Nazis. Their response to the Spanish Civil War was supine, jelly like; pathetic hand wringing that made the response to the Rwandan Genocide look robust. At least the Soviets actually did do something.

 

Taking into account that in the interim months the Soviets launched an invasion in which they had been humbled by the Finnish (arguably giving Hitler as good a reason as any to believe Barbarossa would be a walkover) and Stalin continued to hollow out the officer corps of the Red Army, and made little to no progress untangling the logistical problems that had plagued the Red Army's mechanised forces (the overwhelming majority of T-34s and KV-1 were lost before firing a single shell, not because they were knocked out before they could, but because they were never working to begin with and were stuck in mothballs when the Germans overran the depots), I guess for all those dead Soviets between Lviv and Moscow that was time well spent.

Hell, considering that the Germans fighting the British and French up until the last minute before Barbarossa were fed with bread made from Soviet wheat, driving tanks and U-boats constructed with steel made with Soviet coal, and flying planes sustained by Soviet oil,  I believe it positively _magnanimous_ that the British so readily agreed to ship aid to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk.

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

 

y'know, trump getting covid-19 were indeed a gift from God for his political fortunes, but he wasted it. trump coulda' become more serious 'bout covid-19 and healthcare after personal suffering from a disease which has killed 220k Americans and his base woulda' remained loyal. however, switching gears on healthcare and covid woulda' given older voters and suburban women an excuse to overlook all trump's other fails. is indeed many older voters and suburban women who is concerned 'bout law and order issues, but they simultaneous don't like the bigoted and covid-stoopid trump.

the President doing the improbable and embracing a mea culpa on covid-19 woulda' been blasted by democrats particular on the far left. "how can he apologize to the more than two hundred thousand dead and their families?" etc. 

so what? wouldn't matter if left maintained course and criticized trump. however, if trump had altered the narrative on covid, he coulda' done the improbable and changed more than a few voter opinions in the 11th hour. 

survive covid-19, as terrible as it sounds, were indeed a gift from God for a politician so far behind in polls in most battleground states. wasted. couldn't admit he were wrong. didn't wanna appear weak. he had a reset button handed to him in october for chrissakes, and he threw it away to maintain his image? waste.

instead, we get these pathetic but understandable last gasp efforts to appeal to fear and outrage. twitter. blm. hillary's emails?

CDC estimates up to 240,000 total COVID-19 deaths by Nov. 7

once daily death counts surge, which is predictable given the past week o' increased hospitalizations and positivity rates in places such as florida, all the fake outrage is gonna be overtaken by real and genuine fear that the prognostications o' 400k dead by january is all too likely. 

People were furloughed or outright lost their jobs, thereby losing their health insurance, loved ones have perished from this disease as Trump makes light of it, kids haven't seen their grandparents living under virtual house arrest since February, and yet Trump tries to turn BLM and cancel culture into the issue that ought to be on everyone's mind. On the morning after whatever day the results become certain you and I would like to hear the pundits asking: "How on Earth could anyone believe this election would turn out any other way?"

Edited by Agiel
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"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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4 hours ago, Agiel said:

Taking into account that in the interim months the Soviets launched an invasion in which they had been humbled by the Finnish (arguably giving Hitler as good a reason as any to believe Barbarossa would be a walkover) and Stalin continued to hollow out the officer corps of the Red Army, and made little to no progress untangling the logistical problems that had plagued the Red Army's mechanised forces (the overwhelming majority of T-34s and KV-1 were lost before firing a single shell, not because they were knocked out before they could, but because they were never working to begin with and were stuck in mothballs when the Germans overran the depots), I guess for all those dead Soviets between Lviv and Moscow that was time well spent.

Hell, considering that the Germans fighting the British and French up until the last minute before Barbarossa were fed with bread made from Soviet wheat, driving tanks and U-boats constructed with steel made with Soviet coal, and flying planes sustained by Soviet oil,  I believe it positively _magnanimous_ that the British so readily agreed to ship aid to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk.

Would be relevant- if I was saying that the initial Soviet war strategy was competent. But I was only saying that their political strategy was, and that it mirrored that of the allies with the exception of being successful. Sure, Soviet deployment was idiotic, Stalin actively ignoring that an attack was coming was worse than idiotic and the initial strategic response was about the worst imaginable combination of ossified theory and a top down central command devoid of connection with reality but that doesn't mean anything for the political set up, just that Stalin squandered said set up. Which was completely in character. Having said that if there was one thing that Hitler, Churchill and Stalin all had in common it was that disaster near inevitably followed when they interfered in military matters. Sheesh, Churchill would have had Britain at war with the USSR and Germany- and Norway (!)- simultaneously if he had his way but fortunately Chamberlain was still PM in early 1940.

And given all the squandering that went on it is still militarily significant that the M-R pact occurred. The Germans got within eyesight of the Kremlin from a starting point halfway through Poland, if they'd been able to launch from within spitting distance of Minsk they'd almost certainly have got to Moscow proper. Whether they'd have taken it or whether taking it would have 'won them the war' are both of course open questions.

I'm sure the 25 million Soviet war dead appreciate all the British efforts to help. Shame that they didn't make a bit more of an effort to contain Hitler a few years earlier, if they had those 25 million would likely still be alive not have died.

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@KaineParker

There is a difference in heavy handed enforcment of law (which has flaws and is something to looka at) and order, and authoritarian use of force to vanish people of different opinion. 

And again, it's usually "socialists" driving thought and speech policing. 

And while admitedly these news look borderline dubious, they have more evidence than things like Russians helping Trump to get into the office. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/latest-cache-emails-detail-how-hunter-biden-earned-millions-china-introductions

 

EDIT: Also, company's terms of service cannot be unlawful, and cannot break rights guaranteed by law. There were instances in other countries, where facebook had to reinstate some accounts due to legal actions and they were forced to change terms to fit. 

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53 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

And again, it's usually "socialists" driving thought and speech policing.

If you would like to try it the other way around, then you should visit Australia some day.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

And again, it's usually "socialists" driving thought and speech policing. 

This is a decidedly authoritarian streak and has nothing to do with the underlying economic system or one's political orientation. Media control (and therefore speech and "thought" policing) happen everywhere, in dictatorships easier than in democracies but even there. The comrades Erdogan, Berlusconi, Putin and Orbán are or were all fairly successful at it.

How little difference there is between the left and right when it comes to having thought police streaks can be easily seen when one takes a step back and breaks out of their confirmation bias and opinion/filter bubbles. On the one hand you have a raging socia media (but mostly Twitter) mob of regressive lefties that tries to censor everything outside their established orthodoxy and on the other hand you have the alt-rights who preach the gospel of people (or collectives) calling themselves Tyler Durden and QAnon as the absolute truth.

And both sides have plenty of hypocrites. As evidenced in this thread. Unmarked police disappearing people out of protests and since it was Trump not a comrade we suddenly need tracing, confirmation, more sources and put things in context.

"Tyler Durden" posts something on Zero Hedge and it "looks dubious but has more evidence than Trump's collusion with Russia!" or some Twitter post from someone giving his location as Occupied Ireland posting a video of blacks harrassing some white girl with absolutely no context and Amentep asks for confirmation, more sources and context he gets called out because "the left  gets aways with the same all the time."

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Seems legit. :p

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You realize that Tyler Durden part is just a name space, under which different authors publish anonymously? 

 

And again, comparing heavy handed law enforcement, which can be held accountable and accused of misconduct (get on it!), and authoritarian vanishing of people by unidentified state aparatus are two different things. 

Heavy handed is not ideal, but still better than an alternative of anarchy and lack of protection on property and private rights and assets. So in the choice of two wrongs I choose a lesser evil. However, in case of authoritarian regime removing people from existence by unidentified state agents, I'd pick the temporary anarchy with hopes on something better as a form of a state. Looking at Belarus in this case. (even though they have more peaceful protests than the rioting you can see in the US) 

 

EDIT: And you'd find it quite hard to see me posting a random video of of a snipped of voilence. I refuse to spread such as they usually lack the full context. Look at what happened after the snipped of Mr. Floyds arrest, or Covington Kid, etc. 

The insta story outrage culture is what creates most of these issues. 

I will hovewer point to various news outlets, which cover some story and comment and/or ask for opinion. 

I expect most people who dislike the idea of looking at both sides of narrative use sources like Reuters, hence i rarely link those. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-social-media-idUSKBN2700EZ

You can have doubts, as its near the election, but would you really risk defamation if you were not sure that it's largly accurate? 

Ask yourslef question, what possible qualifications the person in the spotlight had, to get such a salary (average pay in Ukraine is around 400 USD a month, yes 4 hundred a month) and a board position in a business not really familiar with? 

 

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1 hour ago, Darkpriest said:

At one point I was thinking about moving there. What's the issue there? 

If you like Trump, you may like it here... but some of us prefer functional democracies with a free press.

 

Not sure where to start, as it's a comprehensive subject. Let's introduce the current ruling party, the ALP (Australian Liberal Party, colloquially known as "The Liberals"). The PM is a failed marketing employee whose greatest contribution to provide leadership during the worst bush fire season on record was... to jump on a plane to Hawaii with his family for some well deserved leave! (not kidding, **** was hitting the fan and he decided it was getting too hot here, so better leave now). The only thing he did right in the handling of the Covid19 outbreak was, to not do anything and let the state PM's deal with it. Between them, those PM's did a better job than he could have ever dreamt of.

 

Ok, that was the introduction of the federal PM. Scott Morrison, also known as ScoMo from Marketing in popular speech. The party (ALP) is owned by the a combination of the 4 major banks, the mining industry and the church ("owned" as in they are the ones bank rolling the party), giving all 3 interest groups the real power in the country.

 

Corruption is becoming an increasing problem:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/corruption-in-australia-has-worsened-over-the-past-eight-years-international-watchdog

https://www.governmentnews.com.au/global-index-shows-australia-seen-as-increasingly-corrupt/

 

Examples...

Before the last election, billions of dollars were provided for and approved in the budget by both sides of parliament to be used to stimulate and grow youth sport and grass root sports. Leveling a field here and there to make a playable pitch, provide dressing rooms in sports clubs in remote areas, the kind of stuff. The government sat on those money throughout there election period until just before the last election. Then they spent it all on luxury swimming pools in affluent suburbs etc. to entice the rich and wealthy to get the lazy butts to the voting ballots. When called out in it, the PM found an expendable nobody in the government to sacrifice, like the good little pawn she was.

Cardinal Pell, convicted child molester and rapist of young boys... went through two appeal instances and got his conviction upheld. Unfortunately, the third appeal instance was a buddy of the PM's and so he had to be let off the hook. Even if scum like him is one of those rare instances where I think the death penalty would have been appropriate. But, the church is VERY powerful in Australia. I'm surprised they don't have weekly witch burning events. And, they are also a sponsor of the government. So, don't rely on the justice system at all if involves a church, that got taken apart by a Royal Commission and revealed a culture of systemic rape and sexual abuse. We're talking about 1000's of confirmed cases over just the last 50 years. But the priests, being all powerful, simply rotates the priests between the parishes or whatever those things are called whenever they get too much attention.

When a Royal Commission tore the banks apart and revealed a system that was rotten to the core, no prosecutions worth noticing followed, the government held their protective hands over the banks. I'm talking about charging a percent too much here or there, but driving families from their homes because they can't pay money owed by dead relatives... and the money owed by those relatives? The banks simply decided to charge dead people a lot of money for financial advice and consultation rendered (well knowing those people had been long dead). Hey, if it goes and they pay, good, right?

Oh, and the mining industry? They recently got in the spotlight when the government gave Rio Tinto permission to blow up a 46000 old archeological site, despite promises to the local people of consulting with them before doing anything drastic to important heritage sites.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-52869502

 

And then, how can The Liberals get away with all this? Because of Australia's biggest problem, Rupert Murdoch (yes, the same Aussie guy that owns and runs Fox News in the US). He owns 80% of the media nationwide and here in the state where I live (QLD) he owns literally 100% of the media. Guess how much room that leaves for healthy debate and questioning? Murdoch loves playing politics, both at home and in the US. Here, his control is almost absolute though, leaving no room for independent thinking and opinion building. The thought police will make sure you think the right way, vote Liberal, support the mining industry, the banks and the church.

 

When the ABC (a national news tv channel) uncovered war crimes committed by Australian forces (I don't remember if it was Iraq of Afghanistan), the PM sic'ed the federal police on them, raiding their offices, detaining staff, seizing equipment and shutting down their operation for as long as he could, because that should teach them not to offer dissenting voices.

 

Welcome to Australia. The part they don't mention in the tourist brochures. Besides, it's easy to slip under the radar, because the only country doing any real business with Australia is China, who buys cheap iron and uranium and in return gets to take over some of the best farmland (but Rio Tinto says it's ok, because nobody else is buying iron ore these days).

 

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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@Gorth

If that's the case, and alternative views cannot be presented in public and shared in public with a threat of removing from social life and losing work, then that's not ok, and I can condemn such a system. 

The role of the free flow of information, even if some of it is malicious in nature, is to have informed populace on what's happening with their tax money and how the laws contribute to the overall increase of wellbeing. 

Censorship leads only to radicalization and more consipracy theories, that eventually lead to oftenly misguided unrest. 

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14 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Almost there, but missing social freedoms. 

The economic reforms were not tragic though, and good enough that they were continued even after he "left" the office. Comparing Chile the rest of that region? 

I would not endorse that rule though. 

Your point was about the social freedoms, though, not economic ones, no ? Evil regimes are evil regardless of what ideology they espouse (I guess in past it was what amoral superpower they want to suck up to at the time)

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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