Politics XXXVI (will catch up to superbowls soon)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So protestors and covid-19 mean suspending environmental policy?

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/501258-trump-signs-order-removing-environmental-review-for-major-projects

[Azdeus]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Wow... I thought this was the dystopian future we were heading towards:

 

Who knew it would be this?

 

 

LOL, who ami kidding? I always knew it would be this

 

I beg to differ

[Guard Dog]

Hand wringing about an electoral tie in the 2020 election: https://www.rollcall.com/2020/06/01/old-law-could-leave-2020-presidential-race-in-stalemate/

If Trump somehow gets re-elected the gasket that will be blown by.... hell everyone... will be comical beyond belief. The downside we'd have to suffer his stupidity and malice for four more years (maybe). If it's Biden, well, we're screwed either way. The only shot we have of survival is if the Dems have both houses and Trump wins or the Republicans have both Houses and Biden wins. The latter is preferrable, the former is more likely. Any other combination bodes far less well for us all. God help us if one of these two s--t show parties actually gets all three (House, Senate, Executive) again. When they win we lose. And it does not matter who "they" are. 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Elerond]

I start to understand why republicans say that there is wide spread voting fraud in USA 

[Volourn]

The one thing you have to realize, everything either side complains about the other side doing - they are likely doing it too.

[Guard Dog]

28 minutes ago, Volourn said:

The one thing you have to realize, everything either side complains about the other side doing - they are likely doing it too.

There are no saints in hell

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Volourn said:

The one thing you have to realize, everything either side complains about the other side doing - they are likely doing it too.

...wait, is this you admitting that you've actually been a nazi this entire time, because that'd be the biggest reveal of 2020 so far

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Keyrock]

1 hour ago, Volourn said:

The one thing you have to realize, everything either side complains about the other side doing - they are likely doing it too.

I'd upgrade "likely" to "almost certainly". It works across international borders as well. The underhanded stuff we get appalled at Russia, or any other country, for that matter, doing, our government is almost certainly doing it as well.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Keyrock

[Skazz]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

There are no saints in hell

Virgil disagrees.

[Orogun01]

57 minutes ago, Skazz said:

Virgil disagrees.

The one from Dante's Inferno or the one from Devil May Cry?

 

[Guard Dog]

7 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

The one from Dante's Inferno or the one from Devil May Cry?

 

The one who can do what He has willed; and ask no more

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

There are no saints in hell

Except for Johnny Gat, for a time.

[Volourn]

".wait, is this you admitting that you've actually been a nazi this entire time, because that'd be the biggest reveal of 2020 so far "

I don't have a side. I'm one person. I wasn't talking individuals but groups. Individuals MAY be hypocrites but groups will ALWAYS contain some hypocrites. It is the in the numbers.

[ComradeYellow]

5 hours ago, Keyrock said:

I'd upgrade "likely" to "almost certainly". It works across international borders as well. The underhanded stuff we get appalled at Russia, or any other country, for that matter, doing, our government is almost certainly doing it as well.

Yes Democrats were quick to try to pin the protests on Russians and Republicans are right there trying to pin it on Iran, China, and Venezuela.

Truth:  The whole system is rotten, racist, and unjust.  Regime change, economic overhaul, and a huge transcendence of consciousness is the only solution and that's a monumental task.

Put aside your Blade Runner fantasies, that ship has long sailed...

[Gorth]

Queensland (the state I live in) have probably built more walls towards New South Wales (our southern neighbour) than Trump will ever manage to build on the southern US border

Got to keep those losers from New South Wales out, right?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/03/queensland-bolsters-border-closure-with-barriers-and-checkpoints-to-keep-coronavirus-at-bay

[Gromnir]

8 hours ago, Skazz said:

Virgil disagrees.

true. every american fighter jock since the 40s knows the real story.

warning: please note the song were crafted, or so one story goes, by american ww2 fighter pilots who were decided not woke or political aware.

nevertheless, the tune, with customized lyrics, is still sung by drunk fighter pilots in bars 'cross the globe, and is probably hummed in more than a few ****pits.

hell is full o' saints and popes, but there are no fighter pilots down in hell.

HA! Good Fun!

[Skazz]

9 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

The one from Dante's Inferno or the one from Devil May Cry?

Yes.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

Patrick Underwood, David Dorn, and Chris Beaty were all murdered by BLM "protesters" this week. I guess their lives didn't matter. They should have.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Guard Dog

[213374U]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

murdered by BLM "protesters"

Oh?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

32 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Oh?

Googlefu tells me neither Oakland PD or the FBI believe Patrick Underwood's death is linked to the demonstration that was ongoing, David Dorn was killed responding to a robbery at a friend's pawn shop, and Chris Beaty was a protester himself who was shot trying to stop violence. Seems like bad faith to claim protesters are all complicit in such killings, but I don't have galaxy brain so what do I know.

[Malcador]

Indeed the protestors should police themselves.

[Keyrock]

I don't think it's fair to lump peaceful protesters and rioters/looters into 1 group. The former are law abiding citizens exercising their constitutionally given right. The latter are criminals and scumbags.

[Hurlshort]

At least GD goes after the bad cops and the bad protesters equally. I see a ton of folks who try to tar and feather one side while ignoring the other.

Of course, I also think it is fair to have a much higher bar for the police than for some people that show up to a protest and get violent.

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 

 

Patrick Underwood, David Dorn, and Chris Beaty were all murdered by BLM "protesters" this week. I guess their lives didn't matter. They should have.

There deaths absolutely do matter for many reasons. Im glad you raised this but to be honest its not really new information or outcomes but rather its another example of the nuance and complexity with these types of protests and what are they really represent for different people on both sides which is generally the same anywhere in the world where people protest in mostly 1st world countries around numerous issues like Globalization, Climate Change , global financial system, global inequality , anti- Trump protests (some people outside of the USA  spend loads of time criticizing and debating events in the USA but it is not well informed and has degrees of Bias and then unhelpful generalizations ....anyway Trump is partly responsible for this at times )

I follow different movements and global developments because they matter to me or are linked to my country,  or I have family or good friends involved. Sometimes I follow events in countries because of the importance contribution these countries make to the global economy. My view on these topics is not the same as my views on SJ developments throughout the world where debates and discussions are ongoing around " how to make people more tolerant of other religions " (this is just am example )

My views around SJ has changed over the years but in a good way as I realized I was not seeing something obvious or rather I was looking at certain things in my view of the world and what works but I was not doing proper research into certain Internet SJ developments. I did learn where I was wrong and I always update my views and try to acknowledge my misunderstandings at the time. I learnt several incredibly important realities on this forum from having debates with  members, for example GD when you pointed out to me the difference between commentary and reporting in the news media. I now see it when it happens and it causes me less vexation when people in the media do it.....excellent, small but important thing to understand if you follow different news channels 

The latest riots and protests that started in the USA due to the unlawful killing of George Floyd falls under my SJ views of the world,  this just means we will all interpret them in different ways and have different views on some things  but we should have common obvious agreement on a few fundamentals like the fact he was mishandled and an illegal form of restraint lead to his death....the cop involved must face several charges and we will see how complicate the other 3 are 

But this incident has created global outrage and many things have been said by different people. I agree with some protests but I will never  accept any looting, burning down of shops and the killing of anyone including the US security forces like the police.  But most of the people protesting are well meaning and arent part of the negative parts of the violence. Within the BLM  movement there   exists an extremist element  and or condescending way people make certain points but since these people are not really people of influence so  there is no point getting upset even if the media may repeat certain things 

So for me this is my current view on things and I always welcome peoples comments ....lets debate these things but please explain your view in as much detail as possible so I can understand the point 

But in summary here is my current view on things

I have never believed the police in the US are all bad, I understand the views members on this forum have shared and I respect those views but I dont agree that you should generalize about an entire group that operates in every state and plays an absolutely vital role to the rule of law and order. So with the killing of George the people that dismissed the entire US police now are saying things like " all the police are responsible " ....but you can see from my side I didnt ever think all the police were bad and this incident just means we have to address criminal and or bigotry within the police in certain departments

BLM is an American movement and this has now been replicated as the same issues throughout the world, even in countries have totally different social issues around racism. So its important to distinguish between US BLM objectives and other global issues that arent the same but may seem similar 

I have noticed how many white people have globally joined BLM protests  in different countries. This should be seen as a positive step because in all Democracies any citizen is legally entitled to protest and express solidarity with a movement or ideology. You would hope that all people protesting are doing it with an understanding of what is the real objective and "what are you really asking for ".   But its a personal choice and there should be no pressure, for example I have never taken part in any protest in my life with the exception of Gay Pride. For me some protests I am fundamentally opposed to but the main reason is I will support certain protests in principle because there broader goals are relevant and constructive  but I dont believe you will achieve effective change through most protests. You normally need legislation and or new polices implemented and I would rather focus on this 

And then I am uncertain what the real changes people are demanding and or expecting? It reminds me a little of the gun control debate in the USA where after certain tragic mass shootings many people always want gun control enforced and basically use a logical, emotional and understandable approach which involves banning certain guns, enforcing more stricter gun ownership laws and improving mental health facilities.  But it never gets through US congress for several reasons but most are not unreasonable. People outside the USA, like I use to , dont understand why most Americans dont  agree to these changes but we are misunderstanding how many gun owners can absolutely sympathize with any victims and real frustration but the solution cannot be now " all gun owners must be held accountable for the small minority of extremists, ideologues and mentally disabled people who abuse gun control. You must also recognize that many Americans honestly feel gun control is a surreptitious attempt to undermine or control certain Constitutional rights and define what matters to being an American citizen and we must respect this as there are examples of this even if unintentional. For example suggesting all gun owners are these uneducated, rednecks who dont understand the basic problem is unhelpful and condescending

So back to what BLM are asking for, I hear things like " we want an end to systemic racism " and " the killings of African Americans by the police cannot continue   " , most of the comments are easy to understand but how do these things translate to practical changes that arent already in place?

Finally I have to add there are certain groups or people that have hijacked the US BLM movement for there own agendas and ideological goals and quite simply this is not accurate or relevant

In SA its been a mixed bag of spurious connections and people blaming all current social problems on  things like " systemic racism in our economy and historical realities". Some people in our government have even formed an optional " US Black Friday South African support movement "  because apparently US issues around police profiling and certain racist US developments are very relevant to us as " racism in the USA is the biggest problem in the world around why many  black people are disadvantaged and live in poverty " 

But just in SA there are many examples of black people being killed unnecessarily outside of anything to do with racism and yet our government has never really publicly called this out  

So basically  the killing of George must be condemned but we also shouldnt now create unrealistic  societal objectives or  blame things on this that have nothing to do with it 

Edited June 7, 2020 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, 213374U said:

Oh?

 

1 hour ago, KaineParker said:

Googlefu tells me neither Oakland PD or the FBI believe Patrick Underwood's death is linked to the demonstration that was ongoing, David Dorn was killed responding to a robbery at a friend's pawn shop, and Chris Beaty was a protester himself who was shot trying to stop violence. Seems like bad faith to claim protesters are all complicit in such killings, but I don't have galaxy brain so what do I know.

Guys lets not be studiously dismissive of what GD is saying and it is a valid point which I would have assumed most of us were aware of 

You generally  cant take statements from any movement as complex as BLM as the absolute truth or rather the only acceptable opinion to have on a topic. Its never as simple as that in life 

For example there has been violence from some protesters and innocent people have been killed and yes they include members of the US police which are just doing there job. This doesnt mean we judge the whole BLM movement but you will never achieve the true buy in from society if your debate is based on comments like " BLM is non-violent and anyone who doesnt support them unequivocally is a racist and part of the problem  " ...I am not suggesting you guys are saying this but lets be honest about violence where we see it