Politics XXXV (Life in the Vault is about to change)

[Bartimaeus]

14 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

I think if the Ds dropped their position/focus on guns and went to somewhere around to where say Sanders/AOC are they'd probably initially lose a lot of funding from former patrons who would flip Republican and lose voters from socially progressive upper class folks like a South African that posts on this forum. It's hard to say what voters they could draw in, I think a lot of dems would stay because they vote blue no matter who and could probably draw in people who feel disappointed by the current options (how much is anyone's guess tbh) so just shooting from the hip I'd think we see the more affluent democratic areas go red or purple while other areas shift favorably to democrats or double down on the blue. Long-term (assuming we don't bake the planet first) this would probably end up stabilizing similarly to how it is now with most of the same problems.

Frankly I think parties and elections are a losing battle for left-wing minded folks and they should return to militant unionism that was more effective at getting gains and less susceptible to getting subverted.

I have grown more and more anti-corporate and pro-union over the years, and it seems like there's a solid section of the population that feels the same way that doesn't feel like the Democrats represent them to any meaningful degree (and, of course, considering the Republicans would be a joke)...among for other reasons. So no disagreement from me there.

[Zoraptor]

12 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Can you link to this one?

Court documentation (pdf), specifically #40

Quote

40. Mr. Cohoon offered to show Sergeant Klump the documents they received from the doctors at Divine Savior indicating that Amyiah’s symptoms were consistent with COVID-19, but Sergeant Klump stated that he was not there to gather information, but to complete Sheriff’s Konrath’s orders.

 

[Skarpen]

7 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Court documentation (pdf), specifically #40

 

Thanks. In that case I was mistaken.

[Guard Dog]

Too funny:

[Zoraptor]

US wholesale oil prices suffer a ~300% (no typo) drop over the course of a day. In theory at least they will now pay you 30 odd dollars per barrel, to take it away.

[ktchong]

 

Have to say, Trump’s attack ads absolutely DEVASTATE; this one on Nancy Pelosi:

 

 

I have a feeling that Democrats will also lose the House in November... and then the Supreme Court when Ruth Bader Ginsburg dies or retires during Trump's second term.  She is like... 87.  She is not going to serve until 90.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by ktchong

[ktchong]

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by ktchong

[Orogun01]

10 minutes ago, ktchong said:

 

Interesting video, I alternate between agreeing with what he says and worrying that he might have a stroke.

[Orogun01]

So the US navy is in the South China Sea, get your uniform ready gents WW3 is back on the menu

 

[Calax]

On 4/18/2020 at 5:25 AM, BruceVC said:

I appreciate the  clarification, its  changes how I first viewed what you  were saying and I can understand what you were meaning even if I dont necessarily agree with it all

But just to touch on something you mentioned  around comparing the effectiveness of police vs army in enforcing the law. In SA we have deployed  the army to enforce the lock-down around round blocks and doing work in the townships. This has been criticized by many for basically the same reason you mentioned, people saying  " the military arent good at enforcing the law" ,  We have also has 1 or 2 real incidents of the military being heavy handed and using excessive force but these are now criminal matters and not the norm

In the USA you have the National Guard which can be deployed to address issues like domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes, as well as civil disorder. I consider this pandemic both a global and domestic emergency so surly if the National Guard can be deployed why cant they perform similar duties to the police ?

This point is more applicable to SA because I fear we may have some anarchy as the lock-down continues and quite simply we dont have enough police to ensure law and order. And when I raise this point on talk shows I want to get a balanced view of how  this would work in other countries which is why the USA reality is important to how I want to frame this

The thing is that policing should be more of a community effort. Most street level crimes that a local police force deal with should be dealt with by those within the community rather than those from without. It's why police forces are local rather than nationalized. 

 

The issues arise from the fact that police forces hold themselves apart from the local community, and are incentived by politicians to show "progress" through changes in activity. There are tales from New York City where the NYPD would go into an apartment block and arrest everyone, just to have their arrest numbers up in a region to look like they're doing their jobs (the people would be released without charges the next day). 

In more recent years they've become increasingly militarized in an effort to "combat terrorism" and because several of the programs put in place post 9-11 (civil asset forfeiture and transfer of surplus military equipment) push the cops to find reasons to arrest you and take your stuff. Most of the forfeited goods can be sold at auction with no controls on what happens to the proceeds (so, da chief wants a margarita machine in the break room? He can have it), and the surplus military equipment can only be kept if the department can prove it needs it. So you have a small town in Ohio performing swat raids on something as simple as serving a warrant because the happened to see a dog and a busted light. 

Add to this an institutionalization of the Cops being a community of their own, and you have a recipe for a system that ignores or covers up the bad apples in favor of the "greater good". There are tales of cops being driven from their positions for reporting on or citing other cops, or of the department doing their best to protect "one of their own" from a damaging situation (Mohammed Nur in St Paul for example). 

Thus many in America feel like the police have a blank check to act as they please without repercussions, and police unions are happy to keep it that way. Any attempt at reform is quashed by a media blitz from former cops and union personalities declaring that those who are pushing the reforms want to see more bodies in the streets.

National Guard and Army are used in extreme circumstances effectively to add bodies to the equation. For stuff like disaster relief and lockdowns it helps get work done, and the fact they're outsiders helps enforce otherwise difficult to swallow rules. A national guard officer will force Granny Smith to go back to her home, while Officer Johnson could be more lenient because it won't do no harm in his view.

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, Calax said:

The thing is that policing should be more of a community effort. Most street level crimes that a local police force deal with should be dealt with by those within the community rather than those from without. It's why police forces are local rather than nationalized. 

 

The issues arise from the fact that police forces hold themselves apart from the local community, and are incentived by politicians to show "progress" through changes in activity. There are tales from New York City where the NYPD would go into an apartment block and arrest everyone, just to have their arrest numbers up in a region to look like they're doing their jobs (the people would be released without charges the next day). 

In more recent years they've become increasingly militarized in an effort to "combat terrorism" and because several of the programs put in place post 9-11 (civil asset forfeiture and transfer of surplus military equipment) push the cops to find reasons to arrest you and take your stuff. Most of the forfeited goods can be sold at auction with no controls on what happens to the proceeds (so, da chief wants a margarita machine in the break room? He can have it), and the surplus military equipment can only be kept if the department can prove it needs it. So you have a small town in Ohio performing swat raids on something as simple as serving a warrant because the happened to see a dog and a busted light. 

Add to this an institutionalization of the Cops being a community of their own, and you have a recipe for a system that ignores or covers up the bad apples in favor of the "greater good". There are tales of cops being driven from their positions for reporting on or citing other cops, or of the department doing their best to protect "one of their own" from a damaging situation (Mohammed Nur in St Paul for example). 

Thus many in America feel like the police have a blank check to act as they please without repercussions, and police unions are happy to keep it that way. Any attempt at reform is quashed by a media blitz from former cops and union personalities declaring that those who are pushing the reforms want to see more bodies in the streets.

National Guard and Army are used in extreme circumstances effectively to add bodies to the equation. For stuff like disaster relief and lockdowns it helps get work done, and the fact they're outsiders helps enforce otherwise difficult to swallow rules. A national guard officer will force Granny Smith to go back to her home, while Officer Johnson could be more lenient because it won't do no harm in his view.

Thanks for the detailed post , you have provided me information to ponder on 

Would you agree with GD that the police overall for you are more problematic than constructive in making society better through ensuring the rule of law and order is enforced?

[Calax]

9 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Thanks for the detailed post , you have provided me information to ponder on 

Would you agree with GD that the police overall for you are more problematic than constructive in making society better through ensuring the rule of law and order is enforced?

Hard to say. They have a necessary place in society, but that place can easily be used to create terrible times. Realistically you need to change the culture of the police in general, which is hard to do with the design of the system and it's advocates. But then this is a question that really depends on your interactions with the police you've had in your life time. 

[Guard Dog]

Hard times in America renew the call for mandatory national service

Nothing like a little slavery to put us back in the game.

[ktchong]

56 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Hard times in America renew the call for mandatory national service

Nothing like a little slavery to put us back in the game.

 

I actually support mandatory national service.  America has become a warmongering empire, invading and occupying foreign "brown" countries.

When was the last time America had nationwide antiwar movements and protests?  Why aren't Americans antiwar anymore?   That is because most Americans do not have a personal stake in -- or are not personally impacted by -- foreign wars, occupations and interventions.

If every American knows has a family member, close friend or relative who is in the military, if every American family has someone who is fighting and dying overseas, if every American has personal stakes in foreign wars and occupations, then IMO Americans will be more incline to care about, speak out and protest against foreign wars and occupations.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by ktchong

[BruceVC]

12 minutes ago, ktchong said:

 

I actually support mandatory national service. 

 

 

 

First time I agree with you on  something, this could be beginning of  a beautiful relationship 

If I ran the USA conscription program you would definitely be one of the first type of citizen  I would conscript, I cant think of anything more beneficial to improve your general views  than 2 years in Afghanistan or the ME...trust me you would thank me afterwards  

 

[ShadySands]

I think you'll find that the people that you likely want to force to have skin in the game will be able to mostly avoid and/or mitigate any risk to them and theirs.

Maybe some of their supporters will think twice but I have my doubts

 

Also curious if either Bruce or kt have served since they seem willing to sign others up

Edited April 23, 2020 by ShadySands

[Calax]

28 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I think you'll find that the people that you likely want to force to have skin in the game will be able to mostly avoid and/or mitigate any risk to them and theirs.

Maybe some of their supporters will think twice but I have my doubts

 

Also curious if either Bruce or kt have served since they seem willing to sign others up

National Service can mean many things. Be it a year in the Peace Corps, Americorp or the Military. Depending on how it was done it could also open a pile of opportunities for those who are less fortunate to have opportunities to experience things outside their own situation. A suburban kid could end up doing outreach in a bad part of Chicago, or a gangbanger could find himself doing humanitarian work in a disaster zone.

It saddens me that everyone automatically takes these sorts of proposals and immediately declares it's going to be military conscription to fight in Wars.

[ShadySands]

8 minutes ago, Calax said:

National Service can mean many things.

Agreed but they both mentioned the military

[Guard Dog]

Calax is correct. National Service includes the military but it not limited to that. My problem is the word "mandatory". Mandatory labor is slavery by definition. It is not a word compatible with a free people and should always be answered with "f--k you". 

I think voluntary service in the Peace Corps, the military, or any of the other as-yet-to-exist organizations that were discussed the last time that crap was trotted out, is admirable. Moreover it is a very good and personally enriching endeavor for the person doing it. But no one should be compelled to do something like that. That kind of work is hard. The hours are long. They pay sucks. It can even be dangerous. To succeed at it you have to want to be there. If someone is only there because they were compelled to be their work will be half-assed and they will be a burden on their teammates and organization. Those are practical considerations. The philosophical ones are slavery is evil. 

[Gromnir]

13th amendment prohibits slavery and, o' more immediate significance, involuntary servitude. is a whole lotta positives regarding national service, but 13th amendment makes this a non-starter 'cause while such service don't confer ownership rights o' your person to the government, it does most definite involve involuntary servitude. need a new amendment to implement practical national service.

there is ways to implement national service, but wouldn't be national so much as state and would be voluntary but nevertheless prohibitive to avoid. 

examples: 

fed government only provides funding to universities which require students to have completed "national" service or fulfilled requirements for an appropriate waiver.

banks benefit from fdic and other fed programs only if they comply with lending practices which overwhelming favor those who has completed "national" service or appropriate waiver. 

etc. 

hardly straightforward.

am not denying there is positives to national service, but from a pure practical pov such service is legal problematic.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

52 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I think you'll find that the people that you likely want to force to have skin in the game will be able to mostly avoid and/or mitigate any risk to them and theirs.

Maybe some of their supporters will think twice but I have my doubts

 

Also curious if either Bruce or kt have served since they seem willing to sign others up

Yes I did, in 1993. One year before our Democratic election, I did my basics in 1 SSB which is an armored car regiment and then I was transferred to maintenance which is a non-combative unit that involved drivers, stores and other supportive  units. But SA wasnt at war anymore as the Cold War has ended in 1989 in Africa so no one was fighting actively but we had real violence in the country as numerous groups wanted to prevent our first Democratic election

 

[Calax]

4 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Calax is correct. National Service includes the military but it not limited to that. My problem is the word "mandatory". Mandatory labor is slavery by definition. It is not a word compatible with a free people and should always be answered with "f--k you". 

I think voluntary service in the Peace Corps, the military, or any of the other as-yet-to-exist organizations that were discussed the last time that crap was trotted out, is admirable. Moreover it is a very good and personally enriching endeavor for the person doing it. But no one should be compelled to do something like that. That kind of work is hard. The hours are long. They pay sucks. It can even be dangerous. To succeed at it you have to want to be there. If someone is only there because they were compelled to be their work will be half-assed and they will be a burden on their teammates and organization. Those are practical considerations. The philosophical ones are slavery is evil. 

Assuming they aren't paid. It would be a HUGE social program, but imagine if kids in high school picked their service during senior year. The kid who loved to yell "OORAH!" would wind up in the military, the girl who REALLY liked the environment would be a councilor at an outdoor-ed program etc. Not forcing anyone to explicitly go into one role or another, but it would force a distance between the kids and their parents to make them more self-reliant, and to get experience in the industry they may choose for the future.

[Guard Dog]

4 minutes ago, Calax said:

Assuming they aren't paid. It would be a HUGE social program, but imagine if kids in high school picked their service during senior year. The kid who loved to yell "OORAH!" would wind up in the military, the girl who REALLY liked the environment would be a councilor at an outdoor-ed program etc. Not forcing anyone to explicitly go into one role or another, but it would force a distance between the kids and their parents to make them more self-reliant, and to get experience in the industry they may choose for the future.

Hey I agree there is a lot of good stuff they can learn. Just don't tell them they MUST do it. Even if they are paid. The kids working in Chinese sneaker factories are being paid too. But not one of them can choose to do something else. I do not want to live in a country where the government starts making choices for people. Even if it has no effect on me.  

[Guard Dog]

15 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

13th amendment prohibits slavery and, o' more immediate significance, involuntary servitude. is a whole lotta positives regarding national service, but 13th amendment makes this a non-starter 'cause while such service don't confer ownership rights o' your person to the government, it does most definite involve involuntary servitude. need a new amendment to implement practical national service.

there is ways to implement national service, but wouldn't be national so much as state and would be voluntary but nevertheless prohibitive to avoid. 

examples: 

fed government only provides funding to universities which require students to have completed "national" service or fulfilled requirements for an appropriate waiver.

banks benefit from fdic and other fed programs only if they comply with lending practices which overwhelming favor those who has completed "national" service or appropriate waiver. 

etc. 

hardly straightforward.

am not denying there is positives to national service, but from a pure practical pov such service is legal problematic.

HA! Good Fun!

Heck I think even those two examples are wide open to 14th amendment challenges

[Calax]

9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Hey I agree there is a lot of good stuff they can learn. Just don't tell them they MUST do it. Even if they are paid. The kids working in Chinese sneaker factories are being paid too. But not one of them can choose to do something else. I do not want to live in a country where the government starts making choices for people. Even if it has no effect on me.  

True, but then it could also be seen as doing your Civic duty, akin to sitting on a Jury.