Politics: The Final Frontier

[Raithe]

Washington Post - Meet the man who created the fake presidential seal

 

Washington Post - How did Trump end up in front of a doctored Presidential Seal?

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Elerond said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/us-citizen-detained-by-ice-francisco-erwin-galicia-border-officials-conditions-bad-almost-self-deported/?__twitter_impression=true

I don't know, what would you call place where you are put without trial because government officials don't like how you look, where you have not any sort of rights even though you have shown them easily verifiable documentation that their given reason to imprison you is false.

I would bet that there would be riots in Texas if it would take three weeks to check if your ID is legit when you go buy a gun.

Elerond !!! Stop being naughty ..why you spreading gossip and fear mongering?

You cannot refer to these " camps " as " concentration camps " , that's a completely unnecessary characterization of the purpose of these camps and it adds to the problem of how to address reasonable border control because now some people tend to focus on the apparent purpose and conditions  of legal interment centers and not the reason they actually exist. We need to refer to them with the correct name., they called detention camps or refugee camps

This is not even really  about Trump or the USA border but its currently being played out in the USA and Trump has used certain parts of this problem for political expediency and to galvanize his base around issues that ostensibly matter to them. This is about a much broader global issue and quite simply its an important question we need to address and find consensus on...what is the question you may ask?

" Do countries have  a right to stop and or detain  economic and political refugees who arrive illegally on there border , " 

Opinions will differ, my view is " absolutely yes, "  and it should become critical that all countries follow this  rule as you will create  a very dangerous precedent if the criteria for legal entry is simply " you arrive at the country you want to immigrate do and you just need to come from a valid country that has some sort of economic or social crisis where there are no jobs or sustainable future for the citizens " 

It cannot be a reasonable objective that any country should feel it has to integrate the failures of other countries problems or issues as far as there own citizens are concerned

You must remember what happened in the EU around the initial Syrian refugee offer and what Germany intended as a well meaning gesture? Merkel said " we will take in 1.5 million Syrian refugees" ....thats what she said and what was expected 

But what actually happened is suddenly millions of people from other countries assumed they could just arrive in the EU  and somehow be integrated. This created huge and real problems for the whole EU and it still has not been resolved

South Africa faces a similar problem but its impact is must worse for us because we are not a first world country and simply cannot absorb millions of people from failed countries 

Also the rest of the world when faced with mass immigration doesnt do what is expected from the USA and the EU, other countries setup permanent refugee camps where illegal immigrants can be confined and live safely...but they not just automatically made citizens or accepted because all countries have limited resources and this has to be understood 

https://africa-facts.org/africas-biggest-refugee-camps/

http://www.refugeecouncilusa.org/the-7-largest-refugee-camps-in-the-world/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/inside-the-world-s-largest-camp-for-syrian-refugees-1.3018821

So in summary, we must try very hard to not see examples of the conditions of the USA camps as the actual problem. They not, they simply a symptomatic outcome of the real problem. Why are people arriving illegally in certain counties and assuming this means they must be accpeted into that country ?

 

 

 

 

[ktchong]

 

[Elerond]

"Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."  - Encyclopaedia Britannica

I highlighted part why lots of people call those USA's immigrant internment centres as concentration camps.

In heart of EU's immigration crisis is lack of unity in border control, unwillingness to follow EU's immigration laws, desire to let somebody else to solve the problem and unwillingness to work as one to solve the issue.  

Lots of issues caused by immigration crisis would had prevented if there would have been common rules for EU's border control and agreement that people who seek asylum on EU's border are divided evenly to all EU countries for processing to see if they need international protection according to Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees which all members states of EU have already signed, before EU was formed. Because as we have seen lack of unity and lack of willingness to co-operate has lead to situation where we have hundreds of thousands undocumented people in EU who are able to move from country to country because our freedom of movement agreements which has caused lots of additional work and lots of other problems for officials in member countries  as person whose asylum application is rejected in one country moves to another where officials do same work again to determine if person actually needs international protection. When this is combined with countries unwillingness to pay for deporting rejected asylum seekers back to their home countries and increase number of people processing asylum request we have effectively created environment where people can come to EU and seek asylum in one country, get place to sleep, food and some spending money for year or two as their asylum request is processed by over worked officials and when their request is denied they can just go in neighbouring country and repeat. And as there are 28 EU countries they can do that for most of their life. 

[smjjames]

Only problem is, how do you reconcile that with the Schengen Area which is the basis for the free flow of things in the EU. In order to resolve that, you'd have to have non-porous borders, which kills the Schengen thing.

Even if the EU did have some common immigration laws for border control, it'd probably be more of a guideline since that's probably the only way that some countries would ever agree to if there were common immigration laws for border control. Theres also the issue of shared load because the load is not poportionate, at all. Italy would rather the immigrants crossing the Med go to other countries than Italy all the time, for example and you had the balkan countries which got particularily overwhelmed during the Syrian crisis

[Elerond]

Border control that I am speaking is for EU's external borders, so it would not effect Schengen Area.

Immigration issues that countries (Greek, Italy, Spain, Finland, Bulgaria, Estonia*, Latvia*, Lithuania*, Slovakia*, Hungary*, Romania* and Poland*) on EU's external borders face would significantly lessen if EU had agreement for dividing asylum seekers evenly to all the EU's member states, regardless of where they enter in EU. Current state where countries on EU's external border need to carry most of the burden of controlling immigrant flow is very fragile and very much  unsustainable in long run. 

* These countries haven't yet seen mass immigration flows, but in case there is war either between Russia and Ukraine or Iran and USA these countries probably would become points of entry to EU for possible refugees. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Elerond

[Blarghagh]

Aaaaand Republicans just blocked election anti-tamper laws.

[ktchong]

 

 

[smjjames]

10 hours ago, Elerond said:

Border control that I am speaking is for EU's external borders, so it would not effect Schengen Area.

Immigration issues that countries (Greek, Italy, Spain, Finland, Bulgaria, Estonia*, Latvia*, Lithuania*, Slovakia*, Hungary*, Romania* and Poland*) on EU's external borders face would significantly lessen if EU had agreement for dividing asylum seekers evenly to all the EU's member states, regardless of where they enter in EU. Current state where countries on EU's external border need to carry most of the burden of controlling immigrant flow is very fragile and very much  unsustainable in long run. 

* These countries haven't yet seen mass immigration flows, but in case there is war either between Russia and Ukraine or Iran and USA these countries probably would become points of entry to EU for possible refugees. 

Didn't Hungary and Romania complain loudly about the flow during the Syrian crisis? I don't remember if Poland complained about the flow or not, but they definetly complained about taking their share of the asylum seekers as mandated by Germany as a bunch of countries (mostly Eastern European) didn't want to do that.

[Skarpen]

10 hours ago, Elerond said:

Border control that I am speaking is for EU's external borders, so it would not effect Schengen Area.

Immigration issues that countries (Greek, Italy, Spain, Finland, Bulgaria, Estonia*, Latvia*, Lithuania*, Slovakia*, Hungary*, Romania* and Poland*) on EU's external borders face would significantly lessen if EU had agreement for dividing asylum seekers evenly to all the EU's member states, regardless of where they enter in EU. Current state where countries on EU's external border need to carry most of the burden of controlling immigrant flow is very fragile and very much  unsustainable in long run. 

* These countries haven't yet seen mass immigration flows, but in case there is war either between Russia and Ukraine or Iran and USA these countries probably would become points of entry to EU for possible refugees. 

I think you need to update your knowledge. Russian/Ukraine war is ongoing and Poland is taking Ukrainians daily.

[pmp10]

 

32 minutes ago, smjjames said:

I don't remember if Poland complained about the flow or not, but they definetly complained about taking their share of the asylum seekers as mandated by Germany as a bunch of countries (mostly Eastern European) didn't want to do that.

For Poland there was no flow to speak off (just some isolated cases), it ended with outright refusal to take mandated refugees (or migrants) anyway.

[smjjames]

22 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

I think you need to update your knowledge. Russian/Ukraine war is ongoing and Poland is taking Ukrainians daily.

(I wish quoting a post would include the quote in the post if it exists)

I assumed elerond meant a full blown clash of national armies war than the war of proxies (well, proxy-rebels and the government anyway) that is sizzling atm.

[ktchong]

[HoonDing]

Make Baltimore White Great Again!

[smjjames]

@ktchong: That thing has got to be satire, the whole 'have a BA and two years experience in XYZ' is a total giveaway.

[Skarpen]

4 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Make Baltimore White Great Again!

Completely unethical, vile, racist and unacceptable comments about Baltimore. Bernie Sanders should be ashamed and removed from his office

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/bernie-sanders-in-2015-baltimore-looks-like-a-third-world-country

2 hours ago, smjjames said:

@ktchong: That thing has got to be satire, the whole 'have a BA and two years experience in XYZ' is a total giveaway.

Someone took a decades old joke and added Trump so Ktchong took the bait, hook and sinker.

[Zoraptor]

Baltimore was certainly an 'interesting' experience when I went there. Had a day there, the waterfront was nice enough if pretty typical for a medium sized city, so we went for a walk and seemingly about two blocks back from it you could have been in real life The Wire. Or more accurately, since it was while ago, real life Homicide: Life on the Streets. Quite an eye opener for a teenaged NZer.

[Malcador]

I guess improving life in a city really is that simple.

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

I guess improving life in a city really is that simple.

Ask Rudolph Giuliani.

[Malcador]

41 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Ask Rudolph Giuliani.

Possibly.   Certainly is interesting to read opinions on that though and am always skeptical about one administration getting credit when things may have started rolling under previous ones.  Even so, that's the suitable level of government to handle it, seems a bit weird to insult a higher one (putting aside how weird it is for a President to insult someone, anyway).

In related events, Trump's now in a mini-row with Sharpton.  Talk about a fight where you want both to lose

Edited July 29, 2019 by Malcador

[Elerond]

On 7/28/2019 at 5:53 PM, smjjames said:

Didn't Hungary and Romania complain loudly about the flow during the Syrian crisis? I don't remember if Poland complained about the flow or not, but they definetly complained about taking their share of the asylum seekers as mandated by Germany as a bunch of countries (mostly Eastern European) didn't want to do that.

People they complained about entered in EU either through Greece or Bulgaria, who didn't have then systems in place to control such flow of people so they just let them travel through to other EU countries. Which is why Hungary build its border wall on its borders with Serbia and Croatia where most of the migrants come and not it borders with Romania or Ukraine.

Romania started to face some migrant flow after Hungary build its wall and effectively closed its border with Serbia, but  as in that point of time EU had already made deal with Turkey to block migrants and Finland had also made deal with Russia to prevent migrants without visa getting through border checks and also Romania is not part of Schenge Area, which makes it less appealing target for migrants who aim to go to Germany, Sweden, UK, France, which is why big sunk of Romania's immigrant crisis has been consisted of fear of possible migrant flow than actual migrant flow. Also migrants who were already Balkan then had easier route to their target countries (Germany and Sweden) through Croatia->Slovenia->Austria->Germany (->Denmark->Sweden [through land via Øresund Bridge] | ->Sweden [taking ferry from Travemünde to Malmö])

 

[HoonDing]

Why would any thirld-worlder wanna migrate to Hungery or Rumania? Might as well stay in your ****hole country.

[smjjames]

I can see you're trying to make a pun on the name of Hungary to be edgy, HoonDing, but whatever pun you're trying to make out of Romania ruins it since you didn't actually make a pun out of it that goes with the pun on the name of Hungary.

[Maedhros]

How is it possible to lie so much on just one topic?  A reddit post covers Trump's history of lies related to 9/11: https://old.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/cjcn0x/trump_tells_911_first_responders_i_was_down_there/evckl4h/

 

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, smjjames said:

I can see you're trying to make a pun on the name of Hungary to be edgy, HoonDing, but whatever pun you're trying to make out of Romania ruins it since you didn't actually make a pun out of it that goes with the pun on the name of Hungary.

It's there, it's just obscure.

 

Rumen = one of the four stomachs of a ruminant animal like a cow or sheep; from Latin, ruminatio 'to chew the cud'. So Rumania ~ 'stomach land' rather than 'Roman land'. Unless you're Turkish.

2 hours ago, Maedhros said:

How is it possible to lie so much on just one topic?  A reddit post covers Trump's history of lies related to 9/11: https://old.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/cjcn0x/trump_tells_911_first_responders_i_was_down_there/evckl4h/

 

I wouldn't take anything coming from the politics subreddit as being true even if I wanted it to be. It's completely captured by Shareblue bots and has been for literally years.

Trump does rather take the "under fire at Sarajevo airport" type self insertions and embellishments to a whole new level though.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Zoraptor