What to Multiclass with Cipher for MC?

[Squilla]

I am trying to put together a build for my Watcher that would be a Multiclass Cipher - just not sure what to do on the multiclass piece (and even the Cipher subclass).  I'm using a mod that would open up PL 8/9 abilities just for my Watcher while multiclassed, but at a slower rate than single class.

 

I want to take advantage of the Cipher's self buffs, like borrowed instinct, while also having utility with casting spells.  I will also have a single class Cipher in the group to utilize driving echoes, pain block, and ancenstor's memory (for brilliant spam) as applicable.  I typically gravitate towards melee powerhouses on my MC, but I'm open to new ideas on how to tackle encounters.

 

I have started several playthroughs and so far the one that has held my interest through early game is an Inquisitor, however this will be a thorough playthrough so I expect to be high level for a good chunk of it - Paladins kind of fall of on higher level abilities compared to other martials.

 

Ancestor's memory (brilliant) abuse with any caster seems like a fun combo at high level, getting multiple PL8/9 casts in an encounter (if they even last that long).  But I'm not sure how a priest / wizard  would be for focus generation (Soul Mind focus interrupt seems tedious on hit).  And I'm not sure I would like the flavor of Druid for this run.  A melee wizard for focus generation would be nice, but I just did a Wizard/Monk playthrough (Sage) that was all about that melee synergy.

 

I usually build my party to be tanky and support, while I micro the MC and do primary damage. 

 

Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated!

Edited February 6, 2019 by Squilla

[MountainTiger]

I'm not a huge fan of the actual high level Paladin abilities, but Flames of Devotion gets amazing scaling-it's a low level ability, so you get a big multiplicative boost to damage from PL, it's fire keyworded, so you can easily stack an additional +5 PL (Magran's Favor, Sun and Moon during the day, Otto Starcat), and it has a lash (two for Bleak Walkers). It also seems like a good fit for Cipher mechanics-it's a great way to get big bursts of damage at the start of a fight or when you need more focus.

[MaxQuest]

So a cipher who can get rank 8 and 9 powers/talents, and can also multi-class? Ouch, that gonna hurt.

The first thing that comes to mind is Ascendant/Berserker. Shared Nightmare (up to +220% AoE) + Bloodthirst + Amplified Wave/Heart of Fury/Driving Roar/Instrument of Boundless Rage will turn groups of enemies to shreds really quick.
Although on a second thought, if you face a group, than Bloodthirst is a bit redundant because multi-hit from Time Parasite can make you super-fast already.

Also there is a nice synergy between Shared Nightmare and aoe weapons, clear out, whirling strikes. But these would suit more a beguiler or normal cipher, i.e. someone who can sit at high focus, without dipping to zero.

All in all, such character already has enough means to deal with groups of enemies; and what he needs is something that makes it easier to deal with megabosses. So my bet goes to monk (no subclass, nalpazka or helwalker).
Alternatively you could go for a more prolonged fights, and multi-class with tactician or paladin for sustainance. Although that's only if you can reliably trigger Brilliant Tactician, or have a summoner-chanter in party (for Divine Retribution).

Edited February 6, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Exanos]

So a cipher who can get rank 8 and 9 powers/talents, and can also multi-class? Ouch, that gonna hurt.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is Ascendant/Berserker. Shared Nightmare (up to +220% AoE) + Bloodthirst + Amplified Wave/Heart of Fury/Driving Roar/Instrument of Boundless Rage will turn groups of enemies to shreds really quick.

Although on a second thought, if you face a group, than Bloodthirst is a bit redundant because multi-hit from Time Parasite can make you super-fast already.

 

Also there is a nice synergy between Shared Nightmare and aoe weapons, clear out, whirling strikes. But these would suit more a beguiler or normal cipher, i.e. someone who can sit at high focus, without dipping to zero.

 

 

Cipher/barbarian seconded. Ascendant (or Beguiler) / Furyshaper. Play it ranged, pistol early/mid, dual handmortar late game for AoE when you unlock Heart of fury (jump in an pack and see you graphic card burn).

 

Ton of buff/debuff, you shoot like a machinegun (speed boost from frenzy + frenzy ward stack, not additive tough)

 

Playing with pistols in deadfire also open some heavy RP, and it look good (and few build use them effectively)

[Boeroer]

May I suggest Beguiler/Trickster? Beguiler's focus gain through Deception spells got fixed so you can chain-cast Deceptions all day long without having to attack at all if you don't want to - while the Trickster has the means to provide a certain sturdyness while still being able to dish out serious dmg and CC should the need arise. The Beguiler can always cast a few shred spells in between Deception spells and still doesn't need to attack with weapons. But most of all the combo just fits so nicely thematically.

Another combo I like it Illusionist/Beguiler. Miasma of Dull-Mindedness, paired with the Deception spells is a great debuffer and very versatile. Also fits thematically.

Good thing in both cases is that Borrowed Image's defensive buff stacks with Mirrored Image etc.

If you are looking for a superb damage dealer try Streetfighter/Soulblade. All the dmg bonuses apply to Soul Annihilation... If you take Sun & Moon (which hits twice per swing) you can apply Soul Annihilation and regain some focus with the same attack. Whatch out: it's a bit squishy. But Borrowed Instinct helps.

Single class Beguiler is my current MC and it's very good. The passives of high lvl ciphers work really well in this case (The Empty Soul, Soul's Echo and especially Shared Nightmare because my Beguiler is always at max focus as long as he casts stuff like Phantom Foes, Mental Binding, Eyestrike or Secret Horrors and hits with it. And Time Parasite... phew... But since you are using that mod single class makes not much sense I guess.

 

Always pick Draining Whip with a Beguiler by the way...

Edited February 6, 2019 by Boeroer

[Squilla]

All in all, such character already has enough means to deal with groups of enemies; and what he needs is something that makes it easier to deal with megabosses. So my bet goes to monk (no subclass, nalpazka or helwalker).

Alternatively you could go for a more prolonged fights, and multi-class with tactician or paladin for sustainance. Although that's only if you can reliably trigger Brilliant Tactician, or have a summoner-chanter in party (for Divine Retribution).

 

So no subclass Cipher paired with Nalpazca or Helwalker?  I would think a soulblade or Ascendent is better over nosub. I love the monk class overall, but I may have just played it too many times at this point.  It is super potent though.  What makes it superior than others at tackling megabosses?

 

And I think I'll have the resource generation on point with a brilliant bot secondary single class Cipher - early game will just be rough.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Squilla

[Squilla]

May I suggest Beguiler/Trickster? Beguiler's focus gain through Deception spells got fixed so you can chain-cast Deceptions all day long without having to attack at all if you don't want to - while the Trickster has the means to provide a certain sturdyness while still being able to dish out serious dmg and CC should the need arise. The Beguiler can always cast a few shred spells in between Deception spells and still doesn't need to attack with weapons. But most of all the combo just fits so nicely thematically.

 

Another combo I like it Illusionist/Beguiler. Miasma of Dull-Mindedness, paired with the Deception spells is a great debuffer and very versatile. Also fits thematically.

 

Good thing in both cases is that Borrowed Image's defensive buff stacks with Mirrored Image etc.

 

If you are looking for a superb damage dealer try Streetfighter/Soulblade. All the dmg bonuses apply to Soul Annihilation... If you take Sun & Moon (which hits twice per swing) you can apply Soul Annihilation and regain some focus with the same attack. Whatch out: it's a bit squishy. But Borrowed Instinct helps.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't usually play the deception route, but I do like the idea of it all fitting thematically together, appeals to the RP side.

 

How effective / easy is it to keep the streetfighter +50/-50 bonus up consistently, I've never used the subclass but it seems to be a preferred choice for many builds.  I'm just never certain how well I'd be able to keep that buff going.  The synergy with Sun & Moon sounds fund, coupled with all of the great abilities for rogues that I could utilize well with my surplus guile from brilliant.

[mundanesoul]

I am playing a Beguiler/Trickster right now (partially based on Boeroer recommending it elsewhere) and can attest that it’s a real blast to play once it gets going. I use my weapon very rarely, which feels really cool. And it works well for RP in a lot of cases, too.

[thelee]

How effective / easy is it to keep the streetfighter +50/-50 bonus up consistently, I've never used the subclass but it seems to be a preferred choice for many builds.  I'm just never certain how well I'd be able to keep that buff going.  The synergy with Sun & Moon sounds fund, coupled with all of the great abilities for rogues that I could utilize well with my surplus guile from brilliant.

 

 

it's extremely effective. not terribly easy, though and will require some metagaming. i've run a couple streetfighters, in certain setups I can get near 100% up-time, in others I could more charitably put it at 60-70% uptime (which is still pretty good considering how stupidly good the bonus is). the bonus is good enough that it's worth self-blinding or self-disorienting yourself, even though those are far more punishing than self-distract or flanked.

 

(probably the easiest way is to just have a wizard handy who can cast chill fog all the time - in this case it's a good idea to have defiant apparel so that you're "only" disoriented).

[Boeroer]

I guess you can also drop your own Smoke Grenade or let a fellow rogue use Smoke Cloud/Grenade on you (it's friendly fire) to distract/flank you (and also the enemies). 

[thelee]

I guess you can also drop your own Smoke Grenade or let a fellow rogue use Smoke Cloud/Grenade on you (it's friendly fire) to distract/flank you (and also the enemies). 

 

Smoke Grenade has really funky targeting rules and it's literally impossible to affect yourself (even when confused), even though it's friendly fire, even in the intellect-expanding area. you'd have to rely on a rogue (literally, ha!) party member. (i also don't love this strategy because of the interrupt on hit of those abilities bothering your streetfighter)

Edited February 6, 2019 by thelee

[Verde]

Rogue

 

Rogue is always the answer (well usually)!

Edited February 6, 2019 by Verde

[Razorchain]

 

How effective / easy is it to keep the streetfighter +50/-50 bonus up consistently, I've never used the subclass but it seems to be a preferred choice for many builds. I'm just never certain how well I'd be able to keep that buff going. The synergy with Sun & Moon sounds fund, coupled with all of the great abilities for rogues that I could utilize well with my surplus guile from brilliant.

 

it's extremely effective. not terribly easy, though and will require some metagaming. i've run a couple streetfighters, in certain setups I can get near 100% up-time, in others I could more charitably put it at 60-70% uptime (which is still pretty good considering how stupidly good the bonus is). the bonus is good enough that it's worth self-blinding or self-disorienting yourself, even though those are far more punishing than self-distract or flanked.

 

(probably the easiest way is to just have a wizard handy who can cast chill fog all the time - in this case it's a good idea to have defiant apparel so that you're "only" disoriented).

For my helwalker/Streetfighter I tend to open the fight with blunderbuss for powder burns and then switch to fists. If it is a long/hard fight I usually manage to get bloodied or flanked if it is an easy fight then it doesn't matter.

[Squilla]

I'm not a huge fan of the actual high level Paladin abilities, but Flames of Devotion gets amazing scaling-it's a low level ability, so you get a big multiplicative boost to damage from PL, it's fire keyworded, so you can easily stack an additional +5 PL (Magran's Favor, Sun and Moon during the day, Otto Starcat), and it has a lash (two for Bleak Walkers). It also seems like a good fit for Cipher mechanics-it's a great way to get big bursts of damage at the start of a fight or when you need more focus.

 

Yeah - I really like the FoD for the paladin, crazy accuracy and I was going to build up to the huge power level scaling from those 2 weapons.  I forgot about the Starcat!  This current build is a Bleak Walker / Soulblade, but not sure I'm going to stick to it just yet, I picked a tough combination of God Challenges.

 

I also forgot about low level abilities getting a PL scaling effect as you move up - goes really well with just picking a few abilities from Paladin (mostly defensive) and focusing on the Cipher side of the house.

 

There are some great ideas in this thread, I'm basically still stuck on square one haha

[Boeroer]

Don't know if somebody already said that, but if you like FoD (and the PL scaling from Otto Starcat, Sun&Moon and Magran's Favor which gives it a whopping 25% multiplicative dmg boost) you might also want to wear the Ring of Focused Flames which improves your FoD accuracy even more.

 

It even boosts the ACC of auto-attacks of Sun & Moon - but only for the "Eothas" head.

Hm... maybe Bleak Walker/Soulblade would be nice as well in this case? Sun & Moon applies Soul Annihilation and regains focus with its dual-hit while it also gains +10 ACC for Soul Annihilation use (with the Eothas head with Ring oFF). And if you need more focus you just use FoD, followed by Soul Annihilation again... 

 

If you are a Bleak Walker you could also think about Chromoprismatic Staff. It will give you +2 PL (one for burn, the other for corrode) for your Bleak-Walker-FoD (plus the lashes it comes with).

 

By the way: when I use Eternal Flames on my current Bleak Walker/Arcane Archer the Imbue spells also get +10% burning lash. Does this also work with Cipher's Shred powers?

[MountainTiger]

I'm not sure about the Eternal Flames lash-but the Shared Flames lash seems to apply to party members' spells, so it would make sense for the Eternal Flames lash to work on your spells.

[brasilgringo]

Don't know if somebody already said that, but if you like FoD (and the PL scaling from Otto Starcat, Sun&Moon and Magran's Favor which gives it a whopping 25% multiplicative dmg boost) you might also want to wear the Ring of Focused Flames which improves your FoD accuracy even more.

 

It even boosts the ACC of auto-attacks of Sun & Moon - but only for the "Eothas" head.

Hm... maybe Bleak Walker/Soulblade would be nice as well in this case? Sun & Moon applies Soul Annihilation and regains focus with its dual-hit while it also gains +10 ACC for Soul Annihilation use (with the Eothas head with Ring oFF). And if you need more focus you just use FoD, followed by Soul Annihilation again... 

 

If you are a Bleak Walker you could also think about Chromoprismatic Staff. It will give you +2 PL (one for burn, the other for corrode) for your Bleak-Walker-FoD (plus the lashes it comes with).

 

By the way: when I use Eternal Flames on my current Bleak Walker/Arcane Archer the Imbue spells also get +10% burning lash. Does this also work with Cipher's Shred powers?

Could you also use Helm of White Void on Bleak walker for even more acc, since I think FOD applies an affliction (Sickened)?

[jww]

Dual-wield inquisitor with soulblade as the sub-class, alternating FoD and Soul Annihilation, can be fun. By mid-levels, a single FoD (with decent weapons) will usually push your focus up over 100, and then you spend that on SA. FoD is a full attack and SA isn't, but with 100 focus, SA actually does more damage, so it's kind of like having 24 full attacks in a row (12 zeal, using devil of caroc breastplate and the paladin passive for an extra point of zeal). And the passive for a 25% chance to get an extra point of zeal for each kill helps, too. The only other active cipher ability I use frequently is Borrowed Instinct, though I take a lot of the passives.

 

I went Kind Wayfarer, so between FoD healing and the healing aura, my PC did the bulk of the healing in the party as well as the bulk of the damage.

[Toobz]

 

So a cipher who can get rank 8 and 9 powers/talents, and can also multi-class? Ouch, that gonna hurt.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is Ascendant/Berserker. Shared Nightmare (up to +220% AoE) + Bloodthirst + Amplified Wave/Heart of Fury/Driving Roar/Instrument of Boundless Rage will turn groups of enemies to shreds really quick.

Although on a second thought, if you face a group, than Bloodthirst is a bit redundant because multi-hit from Time Parasite can make you super-fast already.

 

Also there is a nice synergy between Shared Nightmare and aoe weapons, clear out, whirling strikes. But these would suit more a beguiler or normal cipher, i.e. someone who can sit at high focus, without dipping to zero.

 

 

Cipher/barbarian seconded. Ascendant (or Beguiler) / Furyshaper. Play it ranged, pistol early/mid, dual handmortar late game for AoE when you unlock Heart of fury (jump in an pack and see you graphic card burn).

 

Ton of buff/debuff, you shoot like a machinegun (speed boost from frenzy + frenzy ward stack, not additive tough)

 

Playing with pistols in deadfire also open some heavy RP, and it look good (and few build use them effectively)

 

 

When people on the forum say handmortar, do they mean blunderbusses in general, the specific blunderbuss that Serafen has, or something else entirely?

[MountainTiger]

Hand mortars are the blunderbusses that do AOE damage instead of shooting multiple projectiles. There are two: Serafen starts with one, and you can pick up another one on his questline.

[Ophiuchus]

 

Don't know if somebody already said that, but if you like FoD (and the PL scaling from Otto Starcat, Sun&Moon and Magran's Favor which gives it a whopping 25% multiplicative dmg boost) you might also want to wear the Ring of Focused Flames which improves your FoD accuracy even more.

 

It even boosts the ACC of auto-attacks of Sun & Moon - but only for the "Eothas" head.

Hm... maybe Bleak Walker/Soulblade would be nice as well in this case? Sun & Moon applies Soul Annihilation and regains focus with its dual-hit while it also gains +10 ACC for Soul Annihilation use (with the Eothas head with Ring oFF). And if you need more focus you just use FoD, followed by Soul Annihilation again... 

 

If you are a Bleak Walker you could also think about Chromoprismatic Staff. It will give you +2 PL (one for burn, the other for corrode) for your Bleak-Walker-FoD (plus the lashes it comes with).

 

By the way: when I use Eternal Flames on my current Bleak Walker/Arcane Archer the Imbue spells also get +10% burning lash. Does this also work with Cipher's Shred powers?

Could you also use Helm of White Void on Bleak walker for even more acc, since I think FOD applies an affliction (Sickened)?

 

You're correct. Helm of the White Void is insanely good on a variety of classes.

[Squilla]

 

 

Don't know if somebody already said that, but if you like FoD (and the PL scaling from Otto Starcat, Sun&Moon and Magran's Favor which gives it a whopping 25% multiplicative dmg boost) you might also want to wear the Ring of Focused Flames which improves your FoD accuracy even more.

 

It even boosts the ACC of auto-attacks of Sun & Moon - but only for the "Eothas" head.

Hm... maybe Bleak Walker/Soulblade would be nice as well in this case? Sun & Moon applies Soul Annihilation and regains focus with its dual-hit while it also gains +10 ACC for Soul Annihilation use (with the Eothas head with Ring oFF). And if you need more focus you just use FoD, followed by Soul Annihilation again... 

 

If you are a Bleak Walker you could also think about Chromoprismatic Staff. It will give you +2 PL (one for burn, the other for corrode) for your Bleak-Walker-FoD (plus the lashes it comes with).

 

By the way: when I use Eternal Flames on my current Bleak Walker/Arcane Archer the Imbue spells also get +10% burning lash. Does this also work with Cipher's Shred powers?

Could you also use Helm of White Void on Bleak walker for even more acc, since I think FOD applies an affliction (Sickened)?

 

You're correct. Helm of the White Void is insanely good on a variety of classes.

 

 

I didn't even think about FoD - I was already going to use this helm for the ACC bonus anyway for Cipher stuff, it just got even juicier.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Squilla