BS skeleton fight

[thelee]

I wanted to compare it to another long-lasting Terrify effect and Enervating Terror came to mind.

 

I don't know if Cipher is single-target focused. While you have to target an enemy or ally, many of the Powers have a medium (e.g. Secret Horrors) to huge AoE (Phantom Foes, Amplified Wave...). And I would say you can totally compare a Cipher to a Wizard if both are supposed to play the role of a debuffer or crowd controller in your party. See Beguiler vs. Illusionist.

ignoring hand mortars and aoe weapon interactions (i know i know a big caveat), soul whip necessarily lends itself to single-target focus, and many of their effects are limited aoe or single target. they do have aoe effects, but they tend to have really weird targeting based on a specific target (beams, bounces, aoe effect centered on target who gets a stronger effect). i think an effect like phantom foes or secret horrors, however much i love them, are more exceptions than the rule. Whereas the opposite seems to be true for a wizard/druid - they have tons of aoe effects, and single-target stuff tends to be more of the exception (necrotic lance... sunlance... thrust of tattered veils). i think possibly in practice ciphers feel less single-target because they can just repeatedly spam one's favorite aoe effects, whereas once a wizard/druid uses up their single-target stuff they can't get them back normally, so the general design of the class is more apparent.

 

While I think most Cipher Powers are pretty nice and well balanced (and most passives are just great), Haunting Chains is just a waste of an ability point in my opinion. Also when you compare it to the other PL-8 and PL-9 stuff you can take. I would maybe consider it if it was a fast cast, but even that is not the case: 3/3secs. I would maybe take it as a Beguiler since you'll get back a bit of focus and it also works with Empty Soul/Soul's Echo/Complete Self, but only maybe.

 

well i didn't say it was great

 

I like to use Fractured Volition on enemy Paladins of Woedica - but that could be more from the irony of it than my theory that it lowers their total health and deflection. ...

 

edit:  I just looked it up and it doesn't reduce deflection at all, but I will settle for the action speed.

 

the health loss can be relevant, but most of the time the duration isn't long enough to notice, and the health loss itself will never kill anyone (only reduce them to 1). i mostly like it for shutting down healing and lowering fortitude by 10, especially around paladins of any stripe (which is what i thought you are referencing for paladins of woedica).

 

on dorudugan a sickened/weakened can mean literally hundreds of health loss. too bad the fight is so long it's hard to make that meaningful.

[Kilburn]

Torkar on PotD (not even upscaled) is maybe impossible with a lvl 5 party. I mean what's impossible - you could apply some DoTs like Bleeding Cuts maybe and then kite and cheese him to death I guess - or do some other game-mechanics-cheese. But it's nigh impossible to win a "normal" face-to-face fight against him if you are only lvl 5 (even more so if you are lvl 5 and your hirelings are lvl 4).

 

First of all there are too many ads - lots of ranged, too. Those are deadly if they come in numbers because they can always reach you no matter chokepoints etc. All of the ads are like 8+ levels higher than you. And the guy itself wears that belt that lets him heal one time once he's near death.

 

I like to do him early, but lvl 5 is just too much of a tedium to try it more than a few times.

 

Weapon modals help a lot to win fights against high level enemies. Not using them and then complaining about high difficulty is like being a mechanic and complaining that the screws are hard to pull with your fingernails.

 

Rogues can certainly not do everything better than a cipher. THey can't do support and they can't do crowd control. They can't debuff in an AoE (atm not even with AoE weapons) except with Smoke Cloud etc. Actually when thinking about it they can't do even few things that a cipher can do.

My guess is that you don't utilize a cipher properly. They are not as good as single target dps machines like rogues are - but that's not their main role.

 

One Whisper of Treason or Puppet Master (even better if cast from stealth to initiate encounter) can turn the tide. Can't say that about any of the rogue's abilites except his invisibility abilites and the Trickster's high level stuff.

 

And I say that while not even being a big fan of ciphers in general.

 

Least we can all agree that Haunting Chains is garbo, everything considered.

Haunting Chains... yeah I don't get it as well. Seems like a complete waste of ability points But maybe I'm overlooking something. Like Fractured Volition - that's also... "errrm?"

 

 

 

The problem was eyestrike sucks so my melee cipher was essentially just playing the same as a weaker rogue. Charm doesn't really appeal to me so i'm pretty much done with the cipher for now. 

 

curse of blackened sight doesn't appear to have the target restriction like eyestrike so it probably rolls to hit everyone under the template. 

 

If soul annihilation was full attack and hit with both weapons.... that might be interesting. 

 

Im trying out blood mage now. That will solve the limited number of casts problem you mentioned earlier. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Kilburn

[Woopee]

 

Torkar on PotD (not even upscaled) is maybe impossible with a lvl 5 party. I mean what's impossible - you could apply some DoTs like Bleeding Cuts maybe and then kite and cheese him to death I guess - or do some other game-mechanics-cheese. But it's nigh impossible to win a "normal" face-to-face fight against him if you are only lvl 5 (even more so if you are lvl 5 and your hirelings are lvl 4).

 

First of all there are too many ads - lots of ranged, too. Those are deadly if they come in numbers because they can always reach you no matter chokepoints etc. All of the ads are like 8+ levels higher than you. And the guy itself wears that belt that lets him heal one time once he's near death.

 

I like to do him early, but lvl 5 is just too much of a tedium to try it more than a few times.

 

Weapon modals help a lot to win fights against high level enemies. Not using them and then complaining about high difficulty is like being a mechanic and complaining that the screws are hard to pull with your fingernails.

 

Rogues can certainly not do everything better than a cipher. THey can't do support and they can't do crowd control. They can't debuff in an AoE (atm not even with AoE weapons) except with Smoke Cloud etc. Actually when thinking about it they can't do even few things that a cipher can do.

My guess is that you don't utilize a cipher properly. They are not as good as single target dps machines like rogues are - but that's not their main role.

 

One Whisper of Treason or Puppet Master (even better if cast from stealth to initiate encounter) can turn the tide. Can't say that about any of the rogue's abilites except his invisibility abilites and the Trickster's high level stuff.

 

And I say that while not even being a big fan of ciphers in general.

 

Least we can all agree that Haunting Chains is garbo, everything considered.

Haunting Chains... yeah I don't get it as well. Seems like a complete waste of ability points But maybe I'm overlooking something. Like Fractured Volition - that's also... "errrm?"

 

 

 

The problem was eyestrike sucks so my melee cipher was essentially just playing the same as a weaker rogue. Charm doesn't really appeal to me so i'm pretty much done with the cipher for now. 

 

curse of blackened sight doesn't appear to have the target restriction like eyestrike so it probably rolls to hit everyone under the template. 

 

If soul annihilation was full attack and hit with both weapons.... that might be interesting. 

 

Im trying out blood mage now. That will solve the limited number of casts problem you mentioned earlier. 

 

Soul Annihilation works really well on multiclasses that can build up focus with other abilities. Like paladin for example can Flames of Devotion for a lot of focus then hit really hard with Soul Annihilation. 

[xzar_monty]

Torkar at lvl 5? Yeah, right. That's one tough fight, I wouldn't dream of even trying at lvl 5. I wonder if someone's actually managed it then.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Torkar at lvl 5? Yeah, right. That's one tough fight, I wouldn't dream of even trying at lvl 5. I wonder if someone's actually managed it then.

 

I'm kinda amazed anyone tries fighting anything at level five. Once you're off of Port Maje you can get to level 8 or 9 with no further combat at all, just from non combat quest exp

Edited February 21, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Daidre]

I always gather all sea exploration XP right after leaving fort Maje getting to level 7-8. I probably sabotage my own enjoyment from low lvl content, but it is really difficult to stop myself. Then I steal all amazing things from Neketaka shops and go to forum to whine how easy game is      

Edited February 21, 2019 by Daidre

[bringingyouthefuture]

 

I wanted to compare it to another long-lasting Terrify effect and Enervating Terror came to mind.

 

I don't know if Cipher is single-target focused. While you have to target an enemy or ally, many of the Powers have a medium (e.g. Secret Horrors) to huge AoE (Phantom Foes, Amplified Wave...). And I would say you can totally compare a Cipher to a Wizard if both are supposed to play the role of a debuffer or crowd controller in your party. See Beguiler vs. Illusionist.

ignoring hand mortars and aoe weapon interactions (i know i know a big caveat), soul whip necessarily lends itself to single-target focus, and many of their effects are limited aoe or single target. they do have aoe effects, but they tend to have really weird targeting based on a specific target (beams, bounces, aoe effect centered on target who gets a stronger effect). i think an effect like phantom foes or secret horrors, however much i love them, are more exceptions than the rule. Whereas the opposite seems to be true for a wizard/druid - they have tons of aoe effects, and single-target stuff tends to be more of the exception (necrotic lance... sunlance... thrust of tattered veils). i think possibly in practice ciphers feel less single-target because they can just repeatedly spam one's favorite aoe effects, whereas once a wizard/druid uses up their single-target stuff they can't get them back normally, so the general design of the class is more apparent.

 

While I think most Cipher Powers are pretty nice and well balanced (and most passives are just great), Haunting Chains is just a waste of an ability point in my opinion. Also when you compare it to the other PL-8 and PL-9 stuff you can take. I would maybe consider it if it was a fast cast, but even that is not the case: 3/3secs. I would maybe take it as a Beguiler since you'll get back a bit of focus and it also works with Empty Soul/Soul's Echo/Complete Self, but only maybe.

 

well i didn't say it was great

 

I like to use Fractured Volition on enemy Paladins of Woedica - but that could be more from the irony of it than my theory that it lowers their total health and deflection. ...

 

edit:  I just looked it up and it doesn't reduce deflection at all, but I will settle for the action speed.

 

the health loss can be relevant, but most of the time the duration isn't long enough to notice, and the health loss itself will never kill anyone (only reduce them to 1). i mostly like it for shutting down healing and lowering fortitude by 10, especially around paladins of any stripe (which is what i thought you are referencing for paladins of woedica).

 

on dorudugan a sickened/weakened can mean literally hundreds of health loss. too bad the fight is so long it's hard to make that meaningful.

 

 

See put the game down for a month and you start to forget how everything works ... your right it hits resolve which equals deflection ...

[asnjas]

People get all screwed up cause they think difficulty needs to be relative to their own capability. As in you improve your skills level so there needs to be a difficulty to match your improvement as a poe2 player. But thats not the case. Potd doesnt need to be good or balanced challenge for you. Potd is what it is and you have to overcome it.

 

I can certaintly distinguish the watchers from the princesses by reading this thread.

[merkmerk73]

People get all screwed up cause they think difficulty needs to be relative to their own capability. As in you improve your skills level so there needs to be a difficulty to match your improvement as a poe2 player. But thats not the case. Potd doesnt need to be good or balanced challenge for you. Potd is what it is and you have to overcome it.

 

I can certaintly distinguish the watchers from the princesses by reading this thread.

 

 

yes everyone who enjoys potd but doesn't want to do stupid **** like making tavern adventurers to get past the first island are just a bunch of princesses

 

nevermind many of us have beaten the first game on potd with trial of iron (and had several deaths end those runs)

 

just a big ol princess. gimme some cake, make me fat, and carry me off

[Verde]

All it really takes is a Druid or two with Charm/Hold Beasts. What's the prob?

Edited February 22, 2019 by Verde

[thelee]

 

nevermind many of us have beaten the first game on potd with trial of iron (and had several deaths end those runs)

 

just a big ol princess. gimme some cake, make me fat, and carry me off

 

 

i wouldn't go so far as asnjas to use pejoratives, but in case it hasn't registered to you, PoE1 is a different game than Deadfire (and more than just a doom vs doom 2 situation, but like radically different mechanically). Just because you could do the one under whatever restrictions you placed on yourself doesn't entitle you to accomplish the same in the other. For normal playthroughs (i.e. not super-metagamed or trying to prove something/do some challenge or tedious camp supply runs to rest-spam), I could go down -2 party members in PoE1 PotD just fine by now (maybe not act 1), but I still wouldn't even want to go down even -1 in Deadfire if I don't have to. I'm not going to whine about it.

Edited February 22, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

yes everyone who enjoys potd but doesn't want to do stupid **** like making tavern adventurers to get past the first island are just a bunch of princesses.

 

Maybe not. But whining about how playing on the highest difficulty is forcing you out of your comfort zone makes you look like one.

 

By the way: Princess Anne called, she wants her tiara back.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Boeroer

[Kilburn]

My final party is destroying. And i think i was right. for a melee character paladin/devoted is insanely strong. 

 

I went with rapiers. normally i think they suck because of a lack of pen but devoted makes up for that. that +20 accuracy modal is so good. 

 

Here's the stats at level 6. his flames is pushing 100 accuracy and gibs everything. 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Kilburn

[Boeroer]

If you like a good mix of defense and offense and also Rapier+modal you might want to try Paladin/Soulblade instead of Devoted. FoD gives you focus - dump it reliably with Rapier/Soul Annihilation, repeat. PEN is only 1 below Devoted, ACC can be 20 higher (Borrowed Instincts) and you'll have plenty of raw damage, you'll have no problems with pierce immune enemies and you can always use cipher powers if melee just doesn't cut it.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Boeroer

[Kilburn]

 

torkar dead at level 8. my rogue/devoted went down. I wasted lots of potions. 

 

arcane knight is pretty broken lol. infuse/alacrity of motion/spirit shield/mirror image. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Kilburn

[Boeroer]

Funny coincidence: Did this last weekend as well with a lvl-8 party (Edér as SC Fighter with The Willbreaker/Kapana Taga/Endre's Flog of Obedience as debuffer, Tekēhu as SC Druid with Deltro's Cage/Voulge as CC/debuffer/dmg dealer, Aloth as SC Wizard with White Witch Mask/Eye of Wael as CC/debuffer and a custom Debonaire/Bloodmage as dmg dealer) with a SC Beguiler as MC as CC/dmg. No dedicated tanks. Edér and Tekēhu in the front line mostly.

 

Nobody went down because they all kept firing/hacking at their constantly charmed/dominated friends (Poweder Monkeys have rel. low Will defenses). But there was always the threat of getting focused fired if I did mess up the timing of the will debuffs and charms. If you can keep some enemies charmed you really don't need a tank. But if you mess it up you are screwed. But I think that's challenging and fun.

 

What's really kind of broken is Tekēhu's special spells that turn powerful friendly fire spells into foe-only spells (Chillfog for example). Really helps in those messy fights (like this one - it always turns into a mess - no idea why. Those guys run around like crazy. Maybe also because I don't have a lot of engagement in this party).

 

Debonaire/Bloodmage with a Beguiler (or other Cipher) in the party only starts to pay off once you get Ringleader. Before that it's just too much micro to "exploit" the 100% crit conversion. Although against single targets like Torkar it's already nice. You just have to judge if it's worth it to break the charm with a spell-crit or weapon-crit or if it's more benefical to keep him charmed. Some CC spells actually don't break the charm. So you can apply a hard crit-CC which lasts a lot longer and then do a crit-dmg spell and keep on attcking the CC'd enemy. 

 

I mean against kith (like in this case) a Debonaire is just great in general. His charm is very long lasting, it's fast and the ACC is also good.

 

100% crit conversion doesn't work on dominated enemies by the way, only charmed.

 

Key is to charm/dominate enemies from stealth if you can. That way they immediately get focused by their friends and nobody cares about you. Works a lot better with Puppet Master than with Whisper oT - because it has a much higher range (no stealth skill needed).

Edited February 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[Kilburn]

I guess this is about where the difficulty falls off a cliff or will it still produce some challenges to come? 

 

Level scale up enemies doesn't seem to do anything. Unless they are way above my level they die like nothing. 

[Boeroer]

There are some encounters that keep being tough - like in Splintered Reef for example. 

[thelee]

DLCs are harder than main path, if you want to give those a try.

 

if you have a completely custom party though you might be set. the game difficulty is not well-matched for a completely optimized party.

 

Level scale up enemies doesn't seem to do anything. Unless they are way above my level they die like nothing.

if the encounter is already above your level (e.g. torkar at level 5) level scale up won't do anything.

 

also - torkar at level 8, good job. Are you still on PotD? even with a completely custom party that ain't a shabby accomplishment.

Edited February 26, 2019 by thelee

[Kilburn]

Is the DLC content hard or too easy? 

 

I notice the upgrade to lay to hands is actually a downgrade as far as I can tell. 1 extra zeal is not worth that crappy short duration buff. 

 

edit-thelee is a mind reader and answered my question while i was writing it. 

 

Ya, thanks, maybe it's time to cut the party down to 3 or even 2 members. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Kilburn

[thelee]

I notice the upgrade to lay to hands is actually a downgrade as far as I can tell. 1 extra zeal is not worth that crappy short duration buff.

those are actually new abilities (not an upgrade to lay on hands) that just happen to have lay on hands as a pre-requisite. the game unfortunately isn't always clear when an ability is an actual upgrade or a new ability with a pre-req. (similarly it's not always clear if the branching lines for an ability are exclusive choices or not).  the lay on hands upgrades are nice conditional alternates to normal lay on hands - not worth using all the time (like you say it's basically twice the cost), but e.g. greater lay on hands is worlds better than normal lay on hands on someone who is weakened or enfeebled (the robust cancels the affliction and lets the heal work at full strength).

Edited February 26, 2019 by thelee

[Verde]

I haven't played SSS but BoW is slightly harder than main game, FS is MUCH harder.

[Kilburn]

DLCs are harder than main path, if you want to give those a try.

 

if you have a completely custom party though you might be set. the game difficulty is not well-matched for a completely optimized party.

 

Level scale up enemies doesn't seem to do anything. Unless they are way above my level they die like nothing.

if the encounter is already above your level (e.g. torkar at level 5) level scale up won't do anything.

 

also - torkar at level 8, good job. Are you still on PotD? even with a completely custom party that ain't a shabby accomplishment.

 

 

 

Yes on POTD. The ability of the arcane knights to cast infuse with vital essence, alacrity of motion, spirit shield and mirror image so fast is insanely good. 

 

I imagine with Lengraths safeguard and martial power they would be almost unkillable. Does ironskin stack with spirit shield? Haven't tested it but LOL if it does. 

 

I meant that I figured the "level scale UP only everything" option would keep the lower level encounters interesting even as I level up but it doesn't. Basically it seems like the level scaling up doesn't do much. 

[thelee]

Does ironskin stack with spirit shield? Haven't tested it but LOL if it does.

definitely does not. would be almost OP imo if it did - wizard wearing robes with some illusion magic would be hard to hit and if you could hit them virtually untouchable. (though i guess you've already figured out arcane knight can already replicate some of that anyway with some of the paladin's defensive skills)

 

I meant that I figured the "level scale UP only everything" option would keep the lower level encounters interesting even as I level up but it doesn't. Basically it seems like the level scaling up doesn't do much.

in my experience it's really encounter specific. it's not going to do much to salvage a random xaurip encounter or low level bounties, but IME the difference between SSS upscaled vs SSS not upscaled is substantial, similar with BoW. sounds like you're wrecking PotD more than I ever did, but SSS without scaling is good for level 16-17 on PotD; with upscaling SSS is still a challenge at level 19-20 instead of being completely trivial (with optimized mainchar and at most one hireling with full party of obsidian npcs which is my self-imposed rule to limit min-maxing).

Edited February 26, 2019 by thelee

[Kilburn]

I think it might be time to restart for the hundred billionth time LOL. Time for trial of iron. Reload is too low stakes. 

 

I hope i dont lose because of the pathfinding or something. I find the combat to be quite janky sometimes.