Turn Based Mode Concerns and Advice

[protopersona]

So the fact that Obsidian have made zero comments about the turn based mode leak leads me to believe that it was a real, actual leak and not some marketing stunt. So I'm fairly sure it will be coming back sometime down the line.

 

In the spirit of that I thought we could speculate about things related to the future turn based mode. What balance concerns or outlier cases can you think of? Any fights that might need adjustment to prevent tedium and dragging on excessively?

 

This isn't really a thread to debate the merits of RTwP vs TB, or to talk about the inherent problems with TB (immersion breaking and takes longer to play). The point of this is to give Obsidian a heads up on problem areas they may want to give a few looks at in advance before releasing the mode.

[daven]

I wouldn't get too stressed about it pal.

[protopersona]

I wouldn't get too stressed about it pal.

It's not stress really, just wanted to talk about the mode a bit and see if there's anything we can bring up. It's a discussion, nothing more.

[wih]

I would want to see a possibility to play the initial part of the fight in turn based mode where you are able to switch to realtime mode when you see that you are winning already. Otherwise I am concerned that the fights would become long and tiring.

[Boeroer]

According to an old interview they wanted to include it into PoE. It didn't work.

 

So it's not as that easy to do it right.

[Wormerine]

To make turn based combat work, the entire system needs an overhaul - from ability use and balance to how any hits it takes to down an enemy. PEN system might be even worse than it is if left unchanged, as it’s advantage (clarity) won’t be much of an advantage in a system wer you can analyse every swing.

 

My biggest concern would be that fights in Turn-based mode would go for far far too long.

 

Curious to see if it will be a viable way of playing if the system ever releases.

[Nssheepster]

It's worth noting, turn based combait implies, but does not promise, that any given action takes only one turn. Someone mentioned in another thread that Wizards would be insane in turn based... Not a certainty. It might take multiple turns to cast spells. It could be a speed based turn order system, where characters take turns in order of their action speed, and then their actions cost them X turns in the order based on the action itself and their speed. IE, if your Wizard is fastest, he goes first... He casts a Meteor Shower, and it takes him X% action speed, so when Y turns have gone by, he finishes the cast and it takes effect, and THEN he gets put into the order again in accordance with his relative speed.

 

If turn based combat was one turn, one action... I don't see it making any sense without the above mentioned total overhaul. It's a new game at that point. Certainly one I'd be interested in, but it wouldn't be Deadfire anymore with how much would need to be changed.

[anameforobsidian]

• The speed system is pretty hard to understand.  I imagine translating it into turns is going to require action points (maybe they carry to next turn).  That could easily invalidate dexterity or make it critical to all builds, or more likely create dexterity threshholds.
• Fight areas are much bigger than you find in most turn-based games to increase movement opportunity cost, so navigating that will be interesting.  You don't want to spend 3 turns moving with no combat.
• Movement itself will be interesting. They would need to overlay various shapes on the world.  Engagement would work differently and characters couldn't stand as close.
• They'll probably have to lower enemy HP as well, and make waves spawn faster.  Belranga fight would just be way too long as a turn-based fight.
• They need to be able to skip animations without the game bugging.

 

In short, this is not a trivial mod.

[Jaget80]

I would be really intresting but I do worried about the balance issue with action points.

If they do it I will definitive try it out.

[kanisatha]

To be quite honest, I have the exact opposite reaction to the OP's re. why Obs hasn't made any comment. I think this was a feature they thought about including at the very beginning, and they played around with the code for it within the game, but then abandoned the idea as being unworkable. But core elements of the code remain within the game. And something in the most recent patch unintentionally triggered that old bit of code. I just don't see any evidence anywhere to believe this is something they're working on right now.

[Archaven]

I would rather that they scrap this idea if is going to take a lot of effort and resources. Did you see Divinity Original Sins 2 include a RTwP mode? If they think they are successful because it's TB then obsidian is plain wrong. TB alone is not a game seller. It's just like all the Devs are jumping to moba or battle royale bandwagon.

[Wormerine]

To be quite honest, I have the exact opposite reaction to the OP's re. why Obs hasn't made any comment. I think this was a feature they thought about including at the very beginning, and they played around with the code for it within the game, but then abandoned the idea as being unworkable. But core elements of the code remain within the game. And something in the most recent patch unintentionally triggered that old bit of code. I just don't see any evidence anywhere to believe this is something they're working on right now.

With a developed UI and choose your way screen when starting a new game? Nah, seems like too many resources are dumped into it to be an abandoned code which accidentally triggered. I just hope it’s someones pet project rather that upper management decision hoping to improve sales (could be both, though!).

[wih]

I wonder why didn't they introduce a simultaneous turn based mode, where you give your orders at the start of the round and then the round resolves synchronously in real time, but you can't change your orders during the round. Something like Combat Mission. This can be done without rebalancing the game. Almost everything needed for this is already in the game including ability to set round length to be like 2 seconds or 4 seconds or more.

[juanval]

Turn based combat mode in PoE2 is a reality. There are screenshots of the cyclopedia showing the rules of the turn based mode.

 

Divinity 2 devs don't need to add RtwP mode because the game has been completely successful on steam.

For me, deadfire is a more serious and solid game than DoS2, and deadfire can attract more players with turn based mode because there are lots of rpgamers that hate RtwP.

I'll never play PoE2 on turn based mode, but I'll happy if PoE2 is more successful with an interesting TB mode implemented.

[kanisatha]

If people didn't like PoE2 it was not because of RTwP. There are a great many number of RPGs out there with RTwP that have sold really well. For the amount of resources that would go into creating a TB mode for PoE2, the number of additional sales they would get just from some RTwP haters would be minimal and not worth the investment. And I would bet anything that the TB fans, being the everything-should-be-my-way type that they tend to be, would still hate on PoE2 anyway because the TB mode doesn't totally 100% satisfy them the way they want the game to be. I'm with @Archaven in seeing this as a complete waste of resources for Obsidian.

[IndiraLightfoot]

But, but… Microsoft is paying now.

[juanval]

TB mode will be for consoles too, and I think TB mode developing process is not at the early stages.

It will be interesting how TB affects to PoE2 success on PC.

[the_dog_days]

There are a great many number of RPGs out there with RTwP that have sold really well.

 

Where? Pathfinder hasn't sold well, Tyranny under performed, POE1 did alright but then Serpent in the Staglands only did okay based on the cost and not in raw sells. Ember did alright but it simultaneously released on mobile and PC.

[Nssheepster]

Real Time games do well. Turn Based games do well. Real Time With Pause feels, for some, like an odd mish mash of the two that just never quite sits right. It's balanced around pausing, so you do kinda have to pause to play the top end of the game... But it's also balanced around real time, so the game doesn't feel right when played with constant pauses. A party based game, single player? It has to be at least RTWP, just to function, you can't be expected to micro manage your entire party perfectly in real time. But for a lot of people.... Their reply would be 'So why not just make it turn based?'

 

In the end, I've heard of and/or played a LOT of Turn Based games... RTWP, just POE, Tyranny, and POE 2. Nothing else. Turn Based is a more common archetype. People know what it is, how it will play... They know what they're paying for, in essence.

 

How many RTWP games are even on the market right now? Not in comparison to TB, clearly there's more TB, but.... How many are even on offer, for people to understand what POE 2 even is?

[juanval]

If Obsidian don't try to add turn based mode, they will never know if TB is a success in PoE2.

 

I've been watching steam sales for a week and is incredible how DoS2 is always on top sellers and PoE2 too far from them. Watching DoS2 numbers, we know that there is big comunity of rpg gamers. Perhaps with TB they can attract some of these players.

[Saito Hikari]

Where? Pathfinder hasn't sold well, Tyranny under performed, POE1 did alright but then Serpent in the Staglands only did okay based on the cost and not in raw sells. Ember did alright but it simultaneously released on mobile and PC.

Pathfinder is actually considered wildly successful for an indie first release, I'd think. I believe it actually sold much more than PoE2 did at launch, but the bugginess killed its momentum. But that game's word of mouth in regards to what it does extremely well will probably result in it outselling PoE2 long-term once all the issues are fixed.

 

How many RTWP games are even on the market right now? Not in comparison to TB, clearly there's more TB, but.... How many are even on offer, for people to understand what POE 2 even is?

There's the Dragon Age series, although that's very simplified.

 

---

 

In regards to the actual topic at hand, there is one advantage for turn-based that probably won't be seen in a RTwP playthrough, though this assumes that certain mechanics will behave completely differently for both game modes.

 

Consider that in RTwP mode, the main mechanic keeping the swarms of enemies away from your back-line casters and archers/gunners is engagement from your melee. Engagement likely won't exist in turn-based mode, so something has to replace it in order to stop the enemy frontline from just running past your tanks. The turn-based answer to that is likely going to be attacks of opportunities against any enemy that attempts to do so.

 

Currently, I feel that the attack of opportunity is a very underutilized mechanic in terms of player usage, because enemies rarely if ever disengage from your melee for any reason. Not only that, but you also don't really have any common ways to force them on enemies, even if they're suffering from debilitations or casting right in your face, unlike other RTwP games. This has resulted in equipment and passives that strengthen such attacks seeing virtually no use at all. But assuming turn-based mode uses attacks of opportunities as the replacement for engagement, such equipment may suddenly see wide use.

 

Other thoughts related to the above:

- An increase in engagement limit may translate to additional amounts of attacks of opportunities possible in a single round.

- Two-handed reach weapons may suddenly become very desirable, to nail enemies thinking about trying to sneak around your melee.

[kanisatha]

If Obsidian don't try to add turn based mode, they will never know if TB is a success in PoE2.

 

I've been watching steam sales for a week and is incredible how DoS2 is always on top sellers and PoE2 too far from them. Watching DoS2 numbers, we know that there is big comunity of rpg gamers. Perhaps with TB they can attract some of these players.

But neither you nor anyone else has provided any evidence whatsoever that TB is the reason for D:OS2's sales success. Not one shred of evidence.

 

D:OS2 has co-op play, so maybe Obsidian should add co-op to PoE2. D:OS2 has complete player freedom, so maybe Obsidian should add that to PoE2. D:OS2 has DM mode, so maybe Obsidian should add that to PoE2. I could go on and on.

 

I'm really sick of the whole 'D:OS2 is the awesomest game ever and developers should make every game exactly like D:OS2' meme. D:OS2 sucks. I do not want PoE2 or any other Obsidian game to be anything like D:OS2. Ever.

[juanval]

I don't like DoS2 either. It seems childish for me.

 

Deadfire for me is the best RPG experience since the BG series, and I'd love to see a PoE3 or another isometric game in Eora not following the Watcher history.

 

I welcome TB if it can help to increase Deadfire success and see in the future another game of the saga (with both TB and Rtwp modes to choose).

 

I hope at least that, with a smaller group of people and with the tools and mechanics currently developed, we can see a game like Tiranny set in Eora.

 

I wonder how much people were involved in the creation of Tiranny. Anyone knows it?

[Saito Hikari]

But neither you nor anyone else has provided any evidence whatsoever that TB is the reason for D:OS2's sales success. Not one shred of evidence.

 

D:OS2 has co-op play, so maybe Obsidian should add co-op to PoE2. D:OS2 has complete player freedom, so maybe Obsidian should add that to PoE2. D:OS2 has DM mode, so maybe Obsidian should add that to PoE2. I could go on and on.

 

I'm really sick of the whole 'D:OS2 is the awesomest game ever and developers should make every game exactly like D:OS2' meme. D:OS2 sucks. I do not want PoE2 or any other Obsidian game to be anything like D:OS2. Ever.

I actually somewhat agree, except for the whole D:OS2 sucks spiel. D:OS2 didn't succeed because it had turn-based. I argue it succeeded because it -revolutionized- turn-based tactical combat, a very specific sub-genre that has been dead/dying for a while and largely limited to the likes of X-COM and Fire Emblem for the entire past decade, both of which still play completely differently from D:OS2 (not even mentioning that both have no exploration to speak of). And it has multiplayer on top of that. Literally the closest thing that existed before D:OS2 is Temple of Elemental Evil, released a whole 15 or so years before and is also far closer to DnD mechanics than the D:OS series is.

 

Point being, you can't really compare the D:OS series to anything. That's how unique it is, and it's the real factor to its success. It was never trying to become a spiritual successor to anything that came before, and completely succeeded in what it set out to do, a rarity in today's gaming market. One could argue that the D:OS series are barely cRPGs, but it's the closest classification that exists for a game merging tactical combat with cRPG-type exploration. I can easily see D:OS2 leading the charge for a revival of turn-based tactical combat in the near future. Or at the very least, inspiring a lot of turn-based combat systems in taking field conditions into account.

 

RTwP has not had a game with a similar effect for decades. Probably because literally all of them seem to be designed with BG2 in mind, which is what, two decades old at this point?

 

If PoE2 is to have a turn-based system, I'd imagine it should be modeled closer to Temple of Elemental Evil's combat (of which the footage I've seen of the 'beta' turn-based combat seems like it is already closely modeled after that game). PoE2 isn't designed to take concepts such as elevation into account anyway, which is a big part of D:OS2.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Saito Hikari

[Nssheepster]

To be fair, the only reason I've even considered picking up Divinity 2 is specifically for the enviromental spell casting. I always loved going for Storm of the Century in Dragon Age Origins, so hearing that things of that nature were possible in Divinity 2 has made me think about getting it more than once. That said... I already play POE 1 and 2, so turn based wouldn't either attract or repel me, really.

 

As for 'no evidence'... We're talking about why random internet strangers might want to buy X over Y. There's no actual evidence to be had, so even bringing it up is nonsenical.

 

I think Saito does bring up an interesting point though... Games that are entirely new, no succeeding, no copying, no imitation.... They have a far higher ceiling of sucess. They also fail, a lot, but that heightened top end is worth noting. On top of that, part of what might be 'holding back' POE 2... Is that it IS a 2. People look at it and go, I didn't care and/or hear about the first one, why would I care about the second? Divinity has a lot of other games that sort-of-kind-of go with it, so it doesn't run into that issue in quite the same fashion.