Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Boeroer]

 

Sorry, too late to the party.

Nice try Boeroer. It's true and you know it.

 

I think you quoted the wrong person too.

I replied to dunehunter (whom I know, discuss with and tease since the beta phase of Deadfire) and I quoted nobody. What do you mean?

[Boeroer]

Hello everyone

 

Would like to get your (more experienced) thoughts on a build I'm planning now that the new classes are out. Thinking Arcane Archer/Steel Garrote

 

Essentially build would revolve around using flames of devotion as a source of elemental damage (negating the AA Acc penalty) and Zealous auras to buff accuracy/penetration. The heal from damage would also help the health penalty

 

Questions are - would this work? , stats (thinking high might/int, not sure about the rest, proabaly dump con a bit) and weaponry (Dragon's breath for RP, more fire dmg)

 

Thanks all

Yes, it will surely work. I didn't try if Eternal Devotion (adding a small lash to your auto-attacks) will remove the ACC penalty on attacks. FoD does, so that's a good combo. Also Ring of Focused Flame works with Imbue: Fireball and FoD. Edited December 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[brasilgringo]

 

Hello everyone

 

Would like to get your (more experienced) thoughts on a build I'm planning now that the new classes are out. Thinking Arcane Archer/Steel Garrote

 

Essentially build would revolve around using flames of devotion as a source of elemental damage (negating the AA Acc penalty) and Zealous auras to buff accuracy/penetration. The heal from damage would also help the health penalty

 

Questions are - would this work? , stats (thinking high might/int, not sure about the rest, proabaly dump con a bit) and weaponry (Dragon's breath for RP, more fire dmg)

 

Thanks all

Yes, it will surely work. I didn't try if Eternal Devotion (adding a small lash to your auto-attacks) will remove the ACC penalty on attacks. FoD does, so that's a good combo. Also Ring of Focused Flame works with Imbue: Fireball and FoD.

 

Isn't the Steel Garrote heal from melee abilities only?

[Verde]

 

 

Sorry, too late to the party.

Nice try Boeroer. It's true and you know it.

 

I think you quoted the wrong person too.

I replied to dunehunter (whom I know, discuss with and tease since the beta phase of Deadfire) and I quoted nobody. What do you mean?

In your reply about sub Rogues vs vanilla Rogues you quoted Andrea but were replying to me, which I didn't realize till now.

 

Also do you really think that the Corpse Eater isn't worse than the vanilla Barb? I haven't seen anyone else support this and objectively does a +1 Rage offset such a niche ability? I think you're just being a contrarian Champion of the Downtrodden again.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Verde

[Hoo]

Also do you really think that the Corpse Eater isn't worse than the vanilla Barb? I haven't seen anyone else support this and objectively does a +1 Rage offset such a niche ability? I think you're just being a contrarian Champion of the Downtrodden again.

Actually, Corpse Eater has an additional implicit feature that can eat two unique foods providing PL bonus without penalty. This is still not enough as a trade off for the heavy +1 Rage penalty though.

[InsaneCommander]

Does anyone knows how long it takes for human meat to rot?

 

Edit: ok, that sounds bad... I mean the kith meat when you play with Rymrgand's Challenge.

Edited December 14, 2018 by InsaneCommander

[protopersona]

 

 

 

Sorry, too late to the party.

Nice try Boeroer. It's true and you know it.

 

I think you quoted the wrong person too.

I replied to dunehunter (whom I know, discuss with and tease since the beta phase of Deadfire) and I quoted nobody. What do you mean?

In your reply about sub Rogues vs vanilla Rogues you quoted Andrea but were replying to me, which I didn't realize till now.

I don't agree. Boeroer's post was completely discussing the context of Andrea's post originally. I think you have a grudge and need to step away from the forums for a while till you can let it go.

 

Damn, now I got Frozen stuck in my head.

Edited December 14, 2018 by protopersona

[thelee]

Does anyone knows how long it takes for human meat to rot?

 

Edit: ok, that sounds bad... I mean the kith meat when you play with Rymrgand's Challenge.

 

1 day.

 

it sucks. as a corpse-eater i have to rely on vessel flesh and eggs to make the alternate version of the pie (and eggs expire in 3 days). i suspect i won't actually be able to take much advantage of kith meat unless i'm actively near the shimmering isle (which has infintie stock of it). fortunately the vessel flesh version is basically as good as the kith meat version where it matters (the +2 PL).

[Verde]

 

 

 

 

Sorry, too late to the party.

Nice try Boeroer. It's true and you know it.

 

I think you quoted the wrong person too.

I replied to dunehunter (whom I know, discuss with and tease since the beta phase of Deadfire) and I quoted nobody. What do you mean?

In your reply about sub Rogues vs vanilla Rogues you quoted Andrea but were replying to me, which I didn't realize till now.

I don't agree. Boeroer's post was completely discussing the context of Andrea's post originally. I think you have a grudge and need to step away from the forums for a while till you can let it go.

 

Damn, now I got Frozen stuck in my head.

Where in Andrea's quoted statement does it mention anything about Rogues or Barbs?

 

Your statement is ironic bc whenever I post there you are; I think it's you who needs to stop following me and playing White Knight everytime I respond to something unrelated to you.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Verde

[Boeroer]

Also do you really think that the Corpse Eater isn't worse than the vanilla Barb? I haven't seen anyone else support this and objectively does a +1 Rage offset such a niche ability? I think you're just being a contrarian Champion of the Downtrodden again.

I did a complete playthrough with a SC Barb (Serafen), one with a SC Corpse Eater (hireling) one with a Corpse Eater Warlock (MC), one with a Berserker Warlock (MC), and one with a Berserker/Nalpasca (hireling). So I'd say now I have sufficient experience with Barbarians.

 

In most fights the Corpse Eater has clear disadvantages simply because he runs out of Rage where other Barb's would not. But in prolonged fights with the right kind of enemies he's pretty good.

 

Especially when you are a single class solo Corpse Eater: Flesh Communion and the higher PL come in handy because you will run out of resources anyway as a solo barb and Corpse Eaters can refill Rage in some fights (means less use of consumables).

 

Also later you can combine Barbaric Retaliation with Flesh Communion which is pretty great: while you eat (and heal and regain Rage) you can still dish out retaliations and kill enemies = produce more corpses. Especially with Blood Surge this is nice. At some point I was basically only jumping into crowds, doing Flesh Communion and use the Rage for more HoFs.

 

So... he's not straight out worse than a vanilla barb. There are situations where he's better. I'd say he's the best solo barb.

 

Having said that I admit that +1 Rage cost is bad until the higher Power Levels. HoF for 4 or 5 isn't such a big deal, but Barbaric Blow for 3 instead of 2 for example is hefty. I wish they could find another way to balance his advantages.

In most scenarios he's not the best pick. Like the Mage Slayer. But he's not straight out worse.

 

Why do I keep arguing against statements like "xy is straight out worse","xy is useless" and so on?

 

Balancing is tricky: before the Trickster got his Sneak Attack rebuffed lots of players here said he's the worst rogue subclass. Then his Sneak Attack got raised a bit and suddenly he's the best. Actually not much changed...

 

Those players seem to have very strong opinions on the usefulness of classes and subclasses - everything is either "useless" or "op". Even when they didn't actually play with such a class.

 

That can influence new players who read this and drive them away from playing (sub)class x or y - even though they might be fun.

 

Example from PoE after release: "Wizards are useless", "Monks don't work" - and the best: "Rogue is the most powerful class".

 

PoE after several years: "Priests and Wizards are OP", "Rogue is bad". And that's after casters received a major nerf and Rogues stayed pretty much the same (except Backstab and Riposte got a buff).

 

That's why I like to take a step back and be cautious with my judgement about what's good/bad/useless - while others may throw around those statements very quickly and carelessly.

 

If I really played a class for several levels I won't hesitate to call it bad if it was. But I didn't find one yet that was really bad or useless. Boring maybe...

 

I'm just trying to consider classes/abilities/mechanics in general in all their aspects.

 

You thinking that's me being a contrarian Champion of the Downtrodden doesn't really trouble my sleep.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[Frog Man]

Damn Bo brought it today. Spittin’ Truth.

 

I sincerely do have extreme appreciation to the folks in this forum. I’m a pillars junkie and like to replay it many times, and the wisdom and experience shared here increases my enjoyment of building characters by about a hundred.

 

While I’m in an appreciative mood, I will say that we all have our nitpicks and maybe even straight out problems with Deadfire, however Obsidian 100% delivered on bringing us the most (or one of the most) replayable RPGs ever. Surely this is a worthy tribute to the Baldur Gate series.

[thelee]

I was on the train that corpse-eater just sucked sucked sucked (I even made a post about this a while back), but similar to what Boeroer says I think the fact that they get special +PL food helps a great deal and helps paper over their drawback in fights where they can't take advantage of eating bodies. Not completely, but it's at least a bit less painful. This was something I had to play myself to fully appreciate.

 

I still think the mage-slayer is just way too niche and narrowly focused. If there's one class I think needs a buff, it's this one. Not necessarily because "it sucks" but because it's way too easy for some new player to build a mage slayer that will just be awful because of the depth of its drawbacks and the narrowness of its strengths, and pillars otherwise tries real hard to promote maximum viability of playstyles.

 

I get annoyed at people who critique theorycrafting because I like theorycrafting, but it *is* true that sometimes you have to see something in action in good faith to fully appreciate how it works. Relatedly I strongly disagree with people who think priests suck or are lame in Deadfire, as I probably am the flip side to Boeroer except with priests, all but one of my runs have involved a priest mainchar of some sort (the other one was a druid); I think people just see some stuff on paper, don't really see the point, and don't give it a good shot to appreciate how good some stuff is.

Edited December 14, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

I get annoyed at people who critique theorycrafting because I like theorycrafting.

I like theorycrafting as well. I just think that giving dismissive statements (without much experience) kills a fruitful theorycrafting discussion. With a more differentiated approach I believe the outcome is better. Having said that I also understand that strong opinions can turn a lame discussion into an interesting one.

[Ronove]

Hi guys,

 

I like the concept of the Arcane Archer a lot but I wonder: would that class be good for a character using dual wield pistols? And would be a good multiclass that could create a good synergy with it? I am thinking of Bloodmage mostly because of Blood Sacrifice, but maybe that wouldn't really matter too much with dual pistols...

[Boeroer]

Best weapons for Arcane Archer's Imbue shots atm seems to be Watershaper's Focus and Fire in the Hole.

 

The Imbue-spells do trigger multiple times with projectile jumps which means with Driving Flight you double the outcome and with an additional jump (like from Watershaper's Focus) you'll triple it.

 

Besides that pistols will work like any other ranged weapon I guess. But remember that Arcane Archers get an ACC penalty when they use a weapon that doesn't do elemental damage.

 

You can avoid that when using Essence Interruptor, Minor Blights, Thundercrack Pistol or Frostseeker.

 

I can't see a special synergy between Bloodmage and Arcane Archer. Arcane Archers have reduced health and Bloodmages get self damage, so...

Edited December 15, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gregorovich]

I can't see a special synergy between Bloodmage and Arcane Archer. Arcane Archers have reduced health and Bloodmages get self damage, so...

Berserker/Blood mage - let's make your every death a surprise for you!

 

Also, do you know if Wael's priest spiritual weapon has no ACC penalty from the AA?

[Gregorovich]

Hi guys,

 

I like the concept of the Arcane Archer a lot but I wonder: would that class be good for a character using dual wield pistols? And would be a good multiclass that could create a good synergy with it? I am thinking of Bloodmage mostly because of Blood Sacrifice, but maybe that wouldn't really matter too much with dual pistols...

Blood Mage and Arcane Archer would be a good synergy, if AA had some more decent debuffs, so you spend more bond on the spells as ranger, but use less health as Blood mage. But there are no really good spells Arcane Archer could offer for the BM till 19th level Pull of Eora. Web only, perhaps.

 

If you like Arcane Archer, it's better to try it single or

 

Multiclass any Rogue/Steel Garrote. Both these guys benefit from afflicted targets, damage and selfheal from damage. Your Arcane Archer has Imbue Web, which including your increased ACC can easily immobilize any enemy and get that bonus.

 

Plus Steel Garrote as a Paladin has Scion of Flame, which can increase your fireball PEN.

[Dr <3]

About wizardslayer: i like to pick underdogs and try to transform them in something that works. After several trials i found a singleclass version and a multiclass version with kind wayfarer that worked quite well.

 

The only thing that really still bothers me is not the class in itself ( playing with some huge restrinction in trade for some kind of power is cool) but that many "spell like" abilities are not properly keyworded.

I mean: the main selling point of the class, apart from the +25% spell resistance ( not bad but not OP either), is the ability to make casters ( chipers, druid, priest, wizard, chanter) to fail spells. This of course is not working for all kind of "martial" abilities, so let's say that more or less only half of enemies are subject to spell failure. What i really despise is that afaik more or less all boss abilities are not keyworded with "spell" ( or the equivalent), so you lose most of your power in the fightes where you need it most. And this is not fair imho.

[Frog Man]

It’s not ****ing fair and its ****ing bull****!

[Yosharian]

I said on release that Mageslayer would never be worth a damn unless they buffed it

[Boeroer]

Afaik it worked against all active abilities in beta and that was too good.

 

Some form of middle-ground would be nice.

 

Or if we had more caster enemies in general...?

 

By the way: the spell resistance of the Mage Slayer, the spell resistance ability that several classes can pick and Xoti's Lantern (and others) seem to stack like hit conversions: on attack roll they seem to get checked one after the other - not added to a big sum.

 

Another thing that waters him down is that frighten and terrific effects do the same but better: they prevent all offensive abilities to be used and are easy to come by and apply. The only advantage of the Mage Slayer is that there's no immunity against his disruption.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Boeroer

[Madscientist]

I have a question about the new fighter class: It says you get a bonus when all enemies are flanked and all party members are not flanked. Does this "all" refer to all enemies on the screen and all friendly chars (including animal companions and summons) on the screen?

 

some hypothetical examples:

- There are 2 enemies. All party members attack one enemy (enemy is flanked, no party member is flanked). The other enemy stands alone ( = not flanked) and uses ranged attacks or is CCed. Do I get bonusses or penalties?

- There are 2 groups of enemies and some party members attack one group and the other party members attack the other group. In the group with the fighter all enemies are flanked and no party members are flanked. In the other group at least one party member is flanked and/or at least one enemy is not flanked. Do I get bonusses or penalties?

[Takkik]

You need to flank all enemies that are taking part in the combat. I don't know for summons/animal companions, but none of your companion has to be flanked.

 

During dig fight with skeletons, I couldn't get the brilliant inspiration, and when I killed the skeletons that engaged me I didn't leave combat because the skeleton wizard was part of the combat but the IA got stuck in the fog of war. There is no range.

[Madscientist]

You need to flank all enemies that are taking part in the combat. I don't know for summons/animal companions, but none of your companion has to be flanked.

 

During dig fight with skeletons, I couldn't get the brilliant inspiration, and when I killed the skeletons that engaged me I didn't leave combat because the skeleton wizard was part of the combat but the IA got stuck in the fog of war. There is no range.

 

Oh, than it will be very hard to get the bonus, especially when you are outnumbered.

[Takkik]

I'm in neketaka, I was able to get the brilliant inspiration in every fight but the one I described to you in the dig site. I'm still at the begining of the game, but with abilities like chill fog and companions that can apply blind or flank, it's not that hard to get it. Ring of supress afflictions are great if your guys get blinded (like walking in your chill fog). It's not always easy, but easier to achieve than getting discipline back from interrupt. That why I made a battle mage with blood mage, even when brilliant don't proc, I can always use spells and getting it at some point.

 

Blood sacrifice + brilliant + interrupt = You always have an ability to use.