Most of people say Resolve and Cons are relatively worse

[Hoo]

So... I'd like to discuss what improvements for those stats will make those being useful enough. Do you guys have any ideas? There would be many ways to enhance those stats, like simply increasing the number of percents these have given, or put additional options such as increasing amount of healing received for Cons and so on.

 

Or, there might be downward-designing way, aka, nerfing the other stats. What do you think of the current Attribute system?

[whimper]

I think Con for sure could use a boost of some kind. As is, it’s hard for me to see any reason to have a high Con.

 

Res, at least, is an important stat for at least some builds.

[Prince of Lies]

High Constitution = High Health = Damage Sponge. It's a pretty effective means of tanking.

High Resolve = High Deflection = Harder to hit. -3% Hostile Effect/point is nice too. 

 

The Fortitude + Will bonuses are somewhat inconsequential due to Strength and Intellect affecting them as well.  

[whimper]

Maybe my focus on solo runs biases my experience, but I’ve never found Con to be of much use tanking. Either you have a balance of damage mitigation (AR/deflection/defenses) and damage recovery (regeneration, healing) that balances out the damage done to you for long enough for you to take them down, or you don’t. You can change various variables here by (say) increasing the speed with which you can take them down (DPS), or by giving yourself more time by improving damage mitigation or healing. But I’ve found Con to have little impact on this; you need enough Con to ensure that the little swings in randomness that perturb your health don’t kill you, but other than that it’s not of much use. As a rule of thumb, if you can’t sirvive a challenging fight with a 10 Con, then you won’t be able to survive it with an 18 Con either.

 

That said, this may be more true in solo play, where fights tend to last a long time, and the effects of any extra “padding” a high Con provides has little effect — if you’re going to be taking several hundred points of damage over the course of a tough fight, padding your HP by another 20 points or so isn’t going to make much difference. In party play, where damage is much more spread out, increasing your Con might do more with respect to increasing your survivability.

Edited October 23, 2018 by whimper

[Hoo]

I think the one of the reason Con is not good, is because the healing in this game is based on fixed value instead of percentage. Higher HP has little merit and very situational usefulness.

[neotemplar]

Resolve is not a dump stat at all.

Why receive damage and deal with it somehow when you can avoid damage at all.

 

Played close-combat rogue-wiz with illusion defence spells and that rogue perk that grants you sneak attack on anyone who missed you. Was good.

[Boeroer]

You mean Riposte.

 

But it doesn't grant a Sneak Attack on anyone who missed you.

 

It gives you a chance of 20% to trigger a Full Attack on somebody who missed you with a melee attack.

 

The point with the flat healing is important. If you would get more healing the more CON (or max health) you have that would make sense I guess. At the moment somebody with a lot of max health and 1/4th of it left heals more slowly than somebody with low max health.

 

Then alter Tough and flat bonuses to health (greater amulet of health and so on) so that they count towards base health. Then they would scale with CON. Atm they give you a flat bonus which is very good for low health (and low lvl) chars but meaningless for high health chars (also high level chars).

Edited October 23, 2018 by Boeroer

[neotemplar]

Yes, thank you.

Right. Full attack, chance.

[MountainTiger]

I like Con giving a bonus to healing received. In POE1, builds that expected to heal through damage (e.g. some Monks) wanted decent Con because the health/endurance split meant it determined the maximum endurance you could heal; a bonus to healing received would fill a similar niche.

 

For Res, maybe a bonus to friendly effect duration?

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Well... if you know how to survive a fight, you won't need either Constitution nor Resolve. 

[Flucas]

Theyre fine for their respective purposes.

 

Agree on the +health items.

[thelee]

Resolve is niche, not bad. The problem with resolve is that gives you a bonus that has increasing returns (deflection), so the difference between a few points of resolve could literally mean infinite survivability. You buff it as a stat and you end up only slightly helping the majority of cases while really making degenerate builds all the more powerful.

 

Con is also pretty niche, though with less dramatic upside than resolve. I don't really think it needs much help. The penalty is large enough that unless you love being targeted by every enemy archer in the fight, you shouldn't really dump it more than a couple points. It is a little lame that healing effects are less effective against high health characters, so I wouldn't say "no" to some sort of buff that linked CON to bonus healing (though penalties would overlap with con afflictions).

 

My bottom line: it's OK if a couple stats are a little more situational than others. I don't think investing in Con or Resolve is a trap choice for most players. If it were, I'd be more concerned about stat imbalance.

[baldurs_gate_2]

Resolve is good for characters with much buffs on it, because arcane dampener targets will and resolve nets +will.

[Elric Galad]

I remind suggesting this, but in was probably too late anyway :
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/96568-ideas-for-an-alternate-attributes-system/

 

Allocating Con to healing (received or given) would make it sort of redundant with Might unless Might is removed from healing.

Not removing Might from healing would aslo requires all healing abilities to be reworked if Con is added. I don't think it will happen.
Might being similar to Per for damages and Per being applicable also to CC, Might needs healing bonus to be relevant. So Might can't be removed from healing either.

 

So there is no easy way to change the current system.

 

 

Con and Res have a relevant effect that can't be replicated easily. Both provide disticntive advantages to the ones that happen to invest in them. Being optimal does not mean that much when other attributes provide totally different advantages.

Con being a large multiplicative bonus is useful enough as it is.

Changing Resolve and Con would be beyond the balance required for a single player game IMHO.

[Hoo]

Allocating Con to healing (received or given) would make it sort of redundant with Might unless Might is removed from healing.

Not removing Might from healing would aslo requires all healing abilities to be reworked if Con is added. I don't think it will happen.

Might being similar to Per for damages and Per being applicable also to CC, Might needs healing bonus to be relevant. So Might can't be removed from healing either.

How about giving mitigation of Armor Recovery Time penalty then? like -2~3% per Cons point. Since heavier armor is considered for frontliners, it would make Cons working like Dex somewhat with high HP at least for them.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Hoo

[Prince of Lies]

How about giving mitigation of Armor Recovery Time penalty then? like -2~3% per Cons point. Since heavier armor is considered for frontliners, it would make Cons working like Dex somewhat with high HP at least for them.

From a mechanics standpoint- sure.

But from a roleplaying perspective- how would being of good vitality mitigate Armor Recovery Time? Does constitution also make you quicker, when dexterity essentially does the same thing? 

 

I think that the best way to address it is to not necessarily change the mechanics of how constitution works, but rather how healing spells/abilities/potions work. Instead of healing a flat 10 HP, have it heal 25% of max health. 

 

A level 1 Fighter with 10 constitution would have 42 HP - Meaning healing at 25% would be 10.5 HP Restored.

A level 1 Fighter with 18 constitution would have 58 HP - Meaning healing at 25% would be 14.5 HP Restored. 

 

If both of those fighters get hit with an attack that deals 20 damage, the first fighter would heal to 32.5 HP vs the second fighter's 52.5 HP. The second fighter would heal significantly more- making constitution a more worthwhile investment. 

 

I doubt that obsidian would make any widespread changes like this of course... At least not until PoE3.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Prince of Lies

[thelee]

 

How about giving mitigation of Armor Recovery Time penalty then? like -2~3% per Cons point. Since heavier armor is considered for frontliners, it would make Cons working like Dex somewhat with high HP at least for them.

From a mechanics standpoint- sure.

But from a roleplaying perspective- how would being of good vitality mitigate Armor Recovery Time? Does constitution also make you quicker, when dexterity essentially does the same thing? 

 

I think that the best way to address it is to not necessarily change the mechanics of how constitution works, but rather how healing spells/abilities/potions work. Instead of healing a flat 10 HP, have it heal 25% of max health. 

 

A level 1 Fighter with 10 constitution would have 42 HP - Meaning healing at 25% would be 10.5 HP Restored.

A level 1 Fighter with 18 constitution would have 58 HP - Meaning healing at 25% would be 14.5 HP Restored. 

 

If both of those fighters get hit with an attack that deals 20 damage, the first fighter would heal to 32.5 HP vs the second fighter's 52.5 HP. The second fighter would heal significantly more- making constitution a more worthwhile investment. 

 

I doubt that obsidian would make any widespread changes like this of course... At least not until PoE3.

 

I love this idea. I agree that it is unlikely to ever happen, but I love it from a flip angle than what you consider - it makes taking away from constitution more painful.

 

Currently, for anyone who's not expected to actually tank on enemies, constitution (and resolve) are stats you can safely dump, because unlike the other stats these stats only help you if you're actively being hurt (whereas e.g. dexterity is always useful). If instead all healing came in % form, then taking away from con means that when you do get hit, a low con actively makes it harder to recover from those hits (whereas currently as far as e.g. Scroll of Moderate Healing is concerned, it's irrelevant whether your max health is 90 or 300).

 

It's ironic because Tyranny actually does %-based healing. While I didn't like Tyranny nearly as much as PoE1 (or Deadfire), there are aspects of it I really want to be ported to the PoE system, and I think % healing is one of them.

[Prince of Lies]

 

 

How about giving mitigation of Armor Recovery Time penalty then? like -2~3% per Cons point. Since heavier armor is considered for frontliners, it would make Cons working like Dex somewhat with high HP at least for them.

From a mechanics standpoint- sure.

But from a roleplaying perspective- how would being of good vitality mitigate Armor Recovery Time? Does constitution also make you quicker, when dexterity essentially does the same thing? 

 

I think that the best way to address it is to not necessarily change the mechanics of how constitution works, but rather how healing spells/abilities/potions work. Instead of healing a flat 10 HP, have it heal 25% of max health. 

 

A level 1 Fighter with 10 constitution would have 42 HP - Meaning healing at 25% would be 10.5 HP Restored.

A level 1 Fighter with 18 constitution would have 58 HP - Meaning healing at 25% would be 14.5 HP Restored. 

 

If both of those fighters get hit with an attack that deals 20 damage, the first fighter would heal to 32.5 HP vs the second fighter's 52.5 HP. The second fighter would heal significantly more- making constitution a more worthwhile investment. 

 

I doubt that obsidian would make any widespread changes like this of course... At least not until PoE3.

 

I love this idea. I agree that it is unlikely to ever happen, but I love it from a flip angle than what you consider - it makes taking away from constitution more painful.

 

Currently, for anyone who's not expected to actually tank on enemies, constitution (and resolve) are stats you can safely dump, because unlike the other stats these stats only help you if you're actively being hurt (whereas e.g. dexterity is always useful). If instead all healing came in % form, then taking away from con means that when you do get hit, a low con actively makes it harder to recover from those hits (whereas currently as far as e.g. Scroll of Moderate Healing is concerned, it's irrelevant whether your max health is 90 or 300).

 

It's ironic because Tyranny actually does %-based healing. While I didn't like Tyranny nearly as much as PoE1 (or Deadfire), there are aspects of it I really want to be ported to the PoE system, and I think % healing is one of them.

 

 

Yeah, punishes if you dump it, rewards if you pump it.

 

I had forgotten about that for Tyranny. Tyranny had some pretty cool ideas. It was buggy at launch, I beat it twice, but never went back. 

 

You could make a mod to change the healing. There would be a tonne of things you would have to change, though. 

[protopersona]

 

You could make a mod to change the healing. There would be a tonne of things you would have to change, though. 

 

I think that would be a much bigger project than our small mod community wants to jump on.

[Prince of Lies]

You'd be surprised just how many things a mod like, say, Enhanced User Interface changes- and how much work it probably took to do it.

 

I imagine it would be of a similar if not a lesser scale.  

[Boeroer]

The question is: how would you handle PL- scaling of healing abilities? Since they'd already scale with your max-health - what would make low level healings either overpowered in the end game or crap in the early game.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Boeroer

[Prince of Lies]

That's a good point. I would assume that because the values are compounded, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. 

 

Lets use my previous example. Level up Fighter # 2 to level 4 (PL 2, +10%), and say that they also have 18 Might (+24%). He would have a max health of 108.

 

Now, lets say we heal them with an ability that self-heals 10 HP. It would look like:

= ([Base Value]+Might%)+PL%
= (10+24%)+10%
= 12.4+10%
= 12.4+1.24
= 13.64 Healed

With my proposed changes, It would look like:

= ([25% of Max Health]+Might%)+PL%
= ([25% of 108]+24%)+10%
= (27+24%)+10%
= 33.48+10%
= 33.48+3.35
= 36.83

So, the problem wouldn't be the actual concept of healing a percentage of the characters maximum health, but rather what that percentage would need to be.

 

A lower percentage would probably be better when comparing to a 10hp heal.

[Boeroer]

Afaik the PL bonus is influencing the base healing. So it's actually multiplicative, not additive. In this case it would have to alter the percentage-value to have a similar effect. Like raising healing from 10% max health to 11% with one additional PL.

 

In general I agree that it's solveable by tweaking the numbers. But don't forget that you can boost PL quite a bit through Empower (+5), Wellspring of Life (+1), Power Surge(+1), Prestige(+1), items like Xoti's Lantern or the Spine of Thicket Green (+2), Death Godlike near death (+3), being a Lifegiver (+7) and so on.

 

Then add abilities like Practiced Healer and an item like Physiker's Belt to your MIG bonus.

 

Because of multiplicative bonus combined with additive bonus combined with percentage-of-max-health-based healing this would get out of hand really quickly, wouldn't it? So you either have to make PL scaling additive or make the increase manageable with baby steps of 0.5% or something.

 

Also, items like Ring of Greater Regeneration would become a lot more powerful.

 

You'd have to tweak the game a lot. Maybe it's easier to give CON the bonus healing of MIG and find something better for MIG? Like reducing the recovery penalty from armor (like Abraham et al. or Armored Grace do, but maybe to a lesser extend).

 

Or simply leaving "healing done" with MIG and giving "healing received" to CON. You won't even need to rebalance because CON can be low or high but it's average won't change and thus the average healing wouldn't. I think that's way better than tinkering with MIG.

 

Giving healing received to CON is basically doing percentage based healing. But I think it's more manageable because it's additive like MIG?

Edited October 24, 2018 by Boeroer

[Prince of Lies]

Ack. Well, I mean, it shows the general concept.

 

Anyways, one can argue that the additive bonuses get out of hand quickly as is with set base bonuses.

 

The way I see it, the only real difference between the two is how they get that base healing. One is a set number, while the other is a percentage based off of your actual attributes.  

 

As you said, it would require a lot of tweaking in terms of what that percentage would be for each healing effect. 

[Boeroer]

Sorry, I edited again. Too many thoughts. Please reread a last time.

 

Generally I think it's better than the current implementation. Just doing a bit of Devil's Advocate here.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Boeroer