Neat Party Trick: Eternal Ascension mode

[Raven Darkholme]

Let's be real: the only reason we potentially fear nerfs to abilities is because they get overnerfed or removed.

When brilliant was op on chanter it straight got removed.

Why later they would ever bring it back and make it an allied only ability, nobody knows, because the ability stayed the same and only got removed from solo play, which is quite weird since a solo char is already weaker than a party

If the duration it took to regain abilites was nerfed it would have been a good nerf, if the way it worked on casters was weaker in it's previous state and remained similar/slightly nerfed for martial classes it also would have been good.

But we fear any kind of nerf cause they never follow common sense.

And we fear that like Poe1 some bugs will never get fixed, while new bugs keep appearing after the less needed balance "fixes".

[thelee]

 

Let's say The Moon's Light heals 10 every 3 seconds, and lasts 18s. How long does it prevent death? Against anyone dealing exactly 10damage every 3 seconds, it is exactly like BDD for 18s. Against anyone dealing more than 10damage every 3 seconds, The Moon's Light is essentially a Restore for 10. Against anyone dealing less than 10 damage every 3 seconds, it functions exactly like BDD for 18s plus a Restore for any of the remainder. In effect, BDD is an alternate version of Robust/The Moon's Light that says "I will always heal you an amount every 3 seconds to prevent knockout, but the price is there's no excess for you to keep if you take less damage than needed to stay alive while I'm active."

 

 

There is one fundamental difference that sets BDD apart from any healing source in the game: It can't possibly be out-damaged.

mant2si basically got it right, but just to elaborate here, this is not a pivotal difference. BDD and an instant heal are connected by the same equation. The flip side to "BDD can't possibly be outdamaged" is "Restore can't possibly be dispelled", which is what mant2si was basically saying with regards to Arcane Dampener.

 

Druid heals are again the illustrative connective spell here, because a spell like The Moon's Light can be both out-damaged and dispelled.

 

If this were the world of physics, I'd package up "immortalityDuration = damagePrevented / damagePerSec" with a sexy science name (The Lee's Universal Law of Healing) and go for a Nobel prize

[dunehunter]

Dota has BDD too, but we have the Axe

[dunehunter]

Also the damage we take is not ideally 10 per sec, there are a lot circumstances where we take very high spike damage, like being blasted or being fire focused by firearms, in these situations, the BDD’s cannot be out-damaged feature is very important. That’s why it’s superior to heal spells.

 

For fragile characters this is very OP also because u can completely give up defense(except will), don’t need to worry about self heal being out damaged, but still be immortal.

 

For self healing, u still need to have some degree of tankiness, and high Might and +%healing done gears to archive immortal, resource side BDD has advantages.

 

In summary, BDD is better because both cannot be outdamage and cost less stats abilities and gears to build up.

Edited September 19, 2018 by dunehunter

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The only problem with this combo is you can't script Salvation of Time to be cast automatically when your Cipher is Ascended, you have to hand-tweak it

[dunehunter]

The only problem with this combo is you can't script Salvation of Time to be cast automatically when your Cipher is Ascended, you have to hand-tweak it

Is.... that a problem???

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

The only problem with this combo is you can't script Salvation of Time to be cast automatically when your Cipher is Ascended, you have to hand-tweak it

Is.... that a problem???

 

 

 

It's an inefficiency. 

[mosspit]

 

 

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)

BDD isn't just another form healing. It imposes a state in which a character cannot fall unconscious regardless of incoming damage. Which mean incoming damage per instance can be infinite and rate of incoming dmg can be infinite per unit time. And it also does not depend on the target's Health Pool.

 

Honestly, I think healing and BDD are quite different. And I can't really realistically draw a comparison.

 

 

Like I said to AndreoColombo, mathematically they're the same. Healing accomplishes one fundamental thing: prevents you from dying/knockout for a period of time. This is somewhat of an abstraction (in this abstraction, you are at 1 health and any hit would kill you/knock you out), but is also fundamentally true: healing 20 health accomplishes literally nothing in the game unless that 20 health would have prevented you from dying/knockout at some point. And how long that healing prevented you from dying/knockout is what lets you measure the relative strength of a heal.

 

The difference between BDD and a straight-forward "instantaneous" healing is how they accomplish that fundamental thing. Instantaneous heal effects gives you fixed numerical healing, so the effective duration of its dying/knockout protection is contingent on how much damage you're taking. So like in my earlier post, if you Restore someone for 30 health, against a weak fly doing 1 damage every 3 second, you basically prevented knockout for 90 seconds. However, if you are up against twenty Dracoliches, that Restore will prevent death/knockout by a mere fraction of a second. On the flip side, BDD gives you a fixed duration of protection from dying/knockout, but that means its numerical healing is the one that varies. Like I mentioned in the previous post, BDD is extremely effective when you're fighting twenty Dracoliches because it effectively is giving you a Restore for 1000s of health.  But it's extremely ineffective against that weak fly (worse than Restore, in fact).

 

I think some people are getting hung up on the fact that BDD 's tooltip doesn't say that it "heals you" but that's really just an in-game semantics difference. If Deadfire was just a gigantic spreadsheet that you put numbers into, it would be extremely clear that BDD is just another form of healing. I would say that people who have taken high school physics or watch pop astrophysics on TV/youtube might be able to pick this up better, because you might already then be used to equations where you're treating "different things" (like mass/acceleration, mass/energy, or space/time) as essentially interchangeable because what ultimately matters is that the terms in the equation balance out and they're describing the same physical phenomenon. Except here, instead of E= mc^2 or F=ma or K=.5 * mv^2, it's immortalityDuration = damagePrevented / damagePerSec: a spell like Restore sets damagePrevented so the final immortalityDuration varies by damagePerSec whereas BDD sets immortalityDuration which means the damagePrevented depends on damagePerSec.

 

To further clarify, let's talk about Druids. Druids are probably the best way to illustrate the similarities between BDD and a Restore because Druid heals are essentially all periodic heals. That means that depending on the situation, their heals are more BDD-like (inelastic duration, elastic health restored) or more Restore-like (inelastic health restored, elastic duration). Let's say The Moon's Light heals 10 every 3 seconds, and lasts 18s. How long does it prevent death? Against anyone dealing exactly 10damage every 3 seconds, it is exactly like BDD for 18s. Against anyone dealing more than 10damage every 3 seconds, The Moon's Light is essentially a Restore for 10. Against anyone dealing less than 10 damage every 3 seconds, it functions exactly like BDD for 18s plus a Restore for any of the remainder. In effect, BDD is an alternate version of Robust/The Moon's Light that says "I will always heal you an amount every 3 seconds to prevent knockout, but the price is there's no excess for you to keep if you take less damage than needed to stay alive while I'm active."

 

It is not mathematically the same.

 

There is a condition to check if a character is qualified to be unconscious. Which is

If (HP == 0) Then Char is Unconscious.

 

Healing counters the damage taken in order to ensure the above condition is not reached.

 

BDD straights up impose another condition which is HP is always at least 1. It does not take into account dmg received, it does not take into account total HP of the character (such that 1 hit KO can occur). The limitation is duration of the effect. It is completely different from the way healing is implemented.

 

Healing changes variables in the equation. It does not impose a condition in such a way that the kill condition cannot be reached.

 

Inelastic heal vs elastic heal is a misnomer. Because healing can only take place if dmg is received. BDD does not consider dmg received.

Real in-game example: Consider a huge spike dmg on a low Con Character. If I have to state a scenario, it will be Wild Mind negative effect of AoE dmg. It is capable of dealing more dmg than a character's HP total at lower character levels. With tradition healing, there is no healing effect that save a character from entering unconscious state. Because healing can only take place after dmg is received and the dmg received is already more than HP total such that unconscious state is entered before healing has a chance to come into effect. BDD however can prevent this 1 hit KO as it changes the rules of the game.

 

Sorry but I disagree that this is semantics.

Edited September 19, 2018 by mosspit

[mant2si]

Okay, I want to point for everyone who think that BDD is cheesy and better than healing - that is not true Let me show simple example

1. First guy is Paladin with 21 AR - This guy usually reduce all incoming damage by -300%, he don't need BDD but need healing
2. Second guy is Marauder Streetfighter/Berserker - This guy is require BDD because there no exist others ways too survive damage peak instead of deflection stacking and out-healing
3. Third example is Helwalker/Devoted - With Plate armor - do you think that BDD will be better than Unbending ? No because your own Unbending cast will give you 30s of immortality, when BDD will give you maximum 12s

So everyone complains only about Glass Canon builds that can survive damage peaks long period of time, because they sacrifice their armor and deflection for DPS purposes ? Yes in this case BDD is better, but you should understand that in other games exist alternative mechanic for such builds:

AGGRO system
Life Leaching 
Evasion 
Red button passives with long cool-down

So if we talk about Solo then you will need special Priest build, this mean that if you can't kill all enemies in ~40S you will die (do you think this is proper GOD mode ? I don't think so)

If we talk party then BDD can be threaten as cheesy, but again ask yourself what the difference between -300% DM from Paladin and 12S of God mode o 30S of Unbending ?

If you can get GOD mode for unlimited period of time then yes, this is cheat, but you can always increase duration of lay on hands with salvation of time and get 20hp per 3S for 30S, or get Blade Turning for 25S ... 

But to counter such simple mechanic, Obsidian can add BOSS which will disable all beneficial effects for short period of time... In Grim Dawn exist boss who by timer dispel all your buffs, if Obs will add such boss n the game be sure you will hate him much more

Edited September 19, 2018 by mant2si

[dunehunter]

I think we are talking about BDD + Salvation of Time? BDD itself is not so OP because the short duration.

 

Also we are talking about X + Salvation + Brilliant combo aren't we? You can swap that x with any of BDD, Unbending or whatever hard healing, that will make anybody immortal.

Edited September 19, 2018 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

True, but immortality is boring. Why would anyone do it instead of just prolonging other buffs indefinitely?

[thelee]

 

 

 

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)

BDD isn't just another form healing. It imposes a state in which a character cannot fall unconscious regardless of incoming damage. Which mean incoming damage per instance can be infinite and rate of incoming dmg can be infinite per unit time. And it also does not depend on the target's Health Pool.

 

Honestly, I think healing and BDD are quite different. And I can't really realistically draw a comparison.

 

 

Like I said to AndreoColombo, mathematically they're the same. Healing accomplishes one fundamental thing: prevents you from dying/knockout for a period of time. This is somewhat of an abstraction (in this abstraction, you are at 1 health and any hit would kill you/knock you out), but is also fundamentally true: healing 20 health accomplishes literally nothing in the game unless that 20 health would have prevented you from dying/knockout at some point. And how long that healing prevented you from dying/knockout is what lets you measure the relative strength of a heal.

 

The difference between BDD and a straight-forward "instantaneous" healing is how they accomplish that fundamental thing. Instantaneous heal effects gives you fixed numerical healing, so the effective duration of its dying/knockout protection is contingent on how much damage you're taking. So like in my earlier post, if you Restore someone for 30 health, against a weak fly doing 1 damage every 3 second, you basically prevented knockout for 90 seconds. However, if you are up against twenty Dracoliches, that Restore will prevent death/knockout by a mere fraction of a second. On the flip side, BDD gives you a fixed duration of protection from dying/knockout, but that means its numerical healing is the one that varies. Like I mentioned in the previous post, BDD is extremely effective when you're fighting twenty Dracoliches because it effectively is giving you a Restore for 1000s of health.  But it's extremely ineffective against that weak fly (worse than Restore, in fact).

 

I think some people are getting hung up on the fact that BDD 's tooltip doesn't say that it "heals you" but that's really just an in-game semantics difference. If Deadfire was just a gigantic spreadsheet that you put numbers into, it would be extremely clear that BDD is just another form of healing. I would say that people who have taken high school physics or watch pop astrophysics on TV/youtube might be able to pick this up better, because you might already then be used to equations where you're treating "different things" (like mass/acceleration, mass/energy, or space/time) as essentially interchangeable because what ultimately matters is that the terms in the equation balance out and they're describing the same physical phenomenon. Except here, instead of E= mc^2 or F=ma or K=.5 * mv^2, it's immortalityDuration = damagePrevented / damagePerSec: a spell like Restore sets damagePrevented so the final immortalityDuration varies by damagePerSec whereas BDD sets immortalityDuration which means the damagePrevented depends on damagePerSec.

 

To further clarify, let's talk about Druids. Druids are probably the best way to illustrate the similarities between BDD and a Restore because Druid heals are essentially all periodic heals. That means that depending on the situation, their heals are more BDD-like (inelastic duration, elastic health restored) or more Restore-like (inelastic health restored, elastic duration). Let's say The Moon's Light heals 10 every 3 seconds, and lasts 18s. How long does it prevent death? Against anyone dealing exactly 10damage every 3 seconds, it is exactly like BDD for 18s. Against anyone dealing more than 10damage every 3 seconds, The Moon's Light is essentially a Restore for 10. Against anyone dealing less than 10 damage every 3 seconds, it functions exactly like BDD for 18s plus a Restore for any of the remainder. In effect, BDD is an alternate version of Robust/The Moon's Light that says "I will always heal you an amount every 3 seconds to prevent knockout, but the price is there's no excess for you to keep if you take less damage than needed to stay alive while I'm active."

 

It is not mathematically the same.

 

There is a condition to check if a character is qualified to be unconscious. Which is

If (HP == 0) Then Char is Unconscious.

 

Healing counters the damage taken in order to ensure the above condition is not reached.

 

BDD straights up impose another condition which is HP is always at least 1. It does not take into account dmg received, it does not take into account total HP of the character (such that 1 hit KO can occur). The limitation is duration of the effect. It is completely different from the way healing is implemented.

 

Sorry but I disagree that this is semantics.

 

 

Because you use a double-equals sign, I'm assuming you know at least a bit of programming, so given that I'll use a very specific phrase: these are literally just implementation details. The game developers could have coded BDD to instantaneously heal any damage you take for its duration and BDD would functionally be the same. The game developers could have coded BDD to be 1 hit point shield (like the chanter aura) that regenerates as frequently as needed to prevent knockout and BDD would functionally be the same. The game developers could have coded it as a universal blade turning that also doesn't reflect the damage back onto attackers and BDD would functionally be the same. The game developers could code it as a one-off conditional e.g. a simple "if (!statuseffect.BDD) return STATUS.Unconscious;" and BDD would functionally be the same.

 

How BDD is implemented in game logic is an orthogonal issue from how BDD performs mathematically, which is like any other healing only instead of a fixed healing amount resulting in variable knockout duration protection it's a fixed knockout duration protection with a variable healing amount.

 

No one has actually disputed the math, because as far as I can tell the math is sound. Everything else is essentially semantics that don't change the actual fundamental truth linking BDD and Restore as two ends of a healing continuum (with periodic heals in the center).

[thelee]

I think we are talking about BDD + Salvation of Time? BDD itself is not so OP because the short duration.

 

Also we are talking about X + Salvation + Brilliant combo aren't we? You can swap that x with any of BDD, Unbending or whatever hard healing, that will make anybody immortal.

 

I think the problem is that several people think the problem is either BDD or Salvation of Time, and not Brilliant. BDD itself is not so OP because it's short duration, and Salvation of Time--while situationally powerful--is arguably not OP because to get a powerful effect you have to couple it with another spell. Brilliant is what lets you chain it all together for arbitrary amounts of time.

 

I don't know how else to compare it; to reiterate it's as if we were in the middle of Magic: The Gathering's affinity winter and people here were arguing that we should ban/fix Ornithopter (a dinky creature with no attack), not the actual affinity mechanic itself.

Edited September 19, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

I agree. Not to Magic: The Gathering though because I know zilch about that weird stuff. When I play card games it's usually Canasta - and Canasta has no Roflcopter. And the only brilliant thing about it is me playing it. Like a BOSS!

[Haplok]

Brilliant is a powerful ability of a class which needs distinctive abilities and a bit of love IMO. I agree with some previous posters that it could make sense to look into how (what level/how fast) spell slots are restored by Brilliant, since the relatively fast restoration of highest level spells appears to be a problem. But I would rather not see it taken away.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Haplok

[mant2si]

Yeah, this situation also remember me about one combo from MT:G. I lost for guy who has elf card that can turn green land, and that green land can turn elf card and give you 1 green mana something like that

[AndreaColombo]

Frankly, I’d rather things stay as is for reasons I’ve already laid out. Of course that ceased to be an option the moment this combo was publicly discussed and therefore put on Obsidian’s radar.

 

If any of you think Obsidian will consider any balancing act whose complexity goes beyond removing an ability from the game or nerfing it into uselessness, by all means reread all patch notes to this point. The track record says you’re mistaken.

 

Thankfully for me, Pathfinder: Kingmaker will be out next week and I can stop desperately looking for ways to have fun with Deadfire.

Edited September 19, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[mant2si]

Frankly, I’d rather things stay as is for reasons I’ve already laid out. Of course that ceased to be an option the moment this combo was publicly discussed and therefore put on Obsidian’s radar.

 

If any of you think Obsidian will consider any balancing act whose complexity goes beyond removing an ability from the game or nerfing it into uselessness, by all means reread all patch notes to this point. The track record says you’re mistaken.

 

Thankfully for me, Pathfinder: Kingmaker will be our next week and I can stop desperately looking for ways to have fun with Deadfire.

Beamdog released Neverwinter:EE, so you can always replay classic D&D modules, until Obisidian will release last DLC, nerf everything what they think is a problem and stable their mod API

Edited September 19, 2018 by mant2si

[Manveru123]

Thankfully for me, Pathfinder: Kingmaker will be our next week and I can stop desperately looking for ways to have fun with Deadfire.

Oh yes! It's tiiiime to saaay goodbyeeeee~!~!~!

[thelee]

Frankly, I’d rather things stay as is for reasons I’ve already laid out. 

I think I'm more fully turning to this perspective as well. On the spectrum of all combos that could exist in an RPG, I can survive with a two-person mid-late-game combo to generate immortality on a single character that also requires consistent focus generation on the cipher part of the equation. On the spectrum of systems design, having one busted single tier 3 inspiration that is only player accessible as a PL7 ability on a single class is not bad. In terms of general systems balance/brokenness, Deadfire is way more secure than BG2 could ever even aspire to be.

 

Given that every major patch seems to introduce some sort of major regression in gameplay (I still have some high-level characters waiting to complete Ukaizo normally) I'd rather they spend their finite resources on only extremely major imbalances (which I don't think exist anymore, except maybe slight buffing for barbarian subclasses or the ranger class) or bugs or new DLC content that themselves have no major imbalances or bugs.

Edited September 19, 2018 by thelee

[mosspit]

 

It is not mathematically the same.

 

There is a condition to check if a character is qualified to be unconscious. Which is

If (HP == 0) Then Char is Unconscious.

 

Healing counters the damage taken in order to ensure the above condition is not reached.

 

BDD straights up impose another condition which is HP is always at least 1. It does not take into account dmg received, it does not take into account total HP of the character (such that 1 hit KO can occur). The limitation is duration of the effect. It is completely different from the way healing is implemented.

 

Sorry but I disagree that this is semantics.

 

Because you use a double-equals sign, I'm assuming you know at least a bit of programming, so given that I'll use a very specific phrase: these are literally just implementation details. The game developers could have coded BDD to instantaneously heal any damage you take for its duration and BDD would functionally be the same. The game developers could have coded BDD to be 1 hit point shield (like the chanter aura) that regenerates as frequently as needed to prevent knockout and BDD would functionally be the same. The game developers could have coded it as a universal blade turning that also doesn't reflect the damage back onto attackers and BDD would functionally be the same. The game developers could code it as a one-off conditional e.g. a simple "if (!statuseffect.BDD) return STATUS.Unconscious;" and BDD would functionally be the same.

 

How BDD is implemented in game logic is an orthogonal issue from how BDD performs mathematically, which is like any other healing only instead of a fixed healing amount resulting in variable knockout duration protection it's a fixed knockout duration protection with a variable healing amount.

 

No one has actually disputed the math, because as far as I can tell the math is sound. Everything else is essentially semantics that don't change the actual fundamental truth linking BDD and Restore as two ends of a healing continuum (with periodic heals in the center).

 

Consider means to an end.

 

If you are talking about the underlying logic on how BDD is handled or the means part, the following is what in the gamebundle files

 

BDD

 

{
	"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
	"DebugName": "Barring_Deaths_Door_SE_PreventDeath",
	"ID": "bf16d60a-34db-4159-b4ce-82f3513c1200",
	"Components": [
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
			"StatusEffectType": "PreventDeath",
			"OverrideDescriptionString": -1,
			"UseStatusEffectValueAs": "None",
			"BaseValue": 1,
			"DynamicValue": {
				"Stat": "None",
				"SkillDataID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
				"ClassID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
				"MultiplyBy": 1,
				"Operator": "Add"
			},
			"KeywordsIDs": [
				
			],
			"DurationType": "UseDurationTime",
			"Duration": 8,
			"MaxStackQuantity": 0,
			"ApplicationBehavior": "UseLongerDurationIfAlreadyApplied",
			"ApplicationType": "ApplyOnStart",
			"IntervalRateID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"StackedChildrenApplyEffects": "false",
			"ApplicationPrerequisites": {
				"Conditional": {
					"Operator": 0,
					"Components": [
						
					]
				}
			},
			"TriggerAdjustment": {
				"TriggerOnEvent": "None",
				"TriggerOffEvent": "None",
				"ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
				"ParamValue": 0,
				"ValueAdjustment": 0,
				"DurationAdjustment": 0,
				"ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
				"MaxTriggerCount": 0,
				"IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
				"RemoveEffectAtMax": "false",
				"ChanceToTrigger": 1
			},
			"PowerLevelScaling": {
				"UseCharacterLevel": "false",
				"BaseLevel": 0,
				"LevelIncrement": 1,
				"MaxLevel": 0,
				"ValueAdjustment": 0,
				"DurationAdjustment": 0
			},
			"IsHostile": "false",
			"ClearOnCombatEnd": "false",
			"ClearOnRest": "false",
			"ClearOnFoodRest": "false",
			"ClearWhenAttacks": "false",
			"ClearOnDeath": "false",
			"HideFromCombatTooltip": "false",
			"HideFromCombatLog": "false",
			"HideFromUI": "false",
			"VisualEffects": [
				
			],
			"MaterialReplacementID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AttackFilter": {
				"KeywordsIDs": [
					
				],
				"KeywordLogic": "Or",
				"Range": "None",
				"ClassTypeID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
				"Source": "None",
				"DefendedBy": "None",
				"Empowered": "false",
				"Disengagement": "false",
				"Stealthed": "false",
				"UseStealthLinger": "false",
				"PowerLevel": 0,
				"PowerLevelOperator": "EqualTo",
				"ChanceToApply": 1,
				"AttackHostility": "Default"
			},
			"AttackTargetFilter": {
				"KeywordsIDs": [
					
				],
				"KeywordLogic": "Or",
				"Race": "None",
				"IsKith": "false",
				"HealthPercentage": 0,
				"HealthOperator": "EqualTo",
				"Distance": 0,
				"DistanceOperator": "EqualTo",
				"HasDOT": "false",
				"IsMarked": "false",
				"TargetHostility": "Default"
			},
			"ExtraValue": 0,
			"OverridePenetration": 0,
			"DamageTypeValue": "All",
			"KeywordValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"RaceValue": "None",
			"StatusEffectTypeValue": "None",
			"ItemValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AfflictionTypeValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"StatusEffectsValueIDs": [
				
			],
			"AttackValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AttackOverrideValue": "None",
			"EventValue": "OnApply",
			"ClassValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"WeaponTypeValue": "None",
			"AttackHitType": "None",
			"SkillValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AudioEventListID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"BedRestDaysMinimum": 0,
			"BedRestDaysMaximum": 0
		}
	]
}

Compare this how the regeneration part of Robust is handled

{
	"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
	"DebugName": "INS_Robust_SE_Regeneration",
	"ID": "10e0582a-8178-4f6e-8820-54e3e72d8930",
	"Components": [
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
			"StatusEffectType": "Health",
			"OverrideDescriptionString": -1,
			"UseStatusEffectValueAs": "None",
			"BaseValue": 10,
			"DynamicValue": {
				"Stat": "None",
				"SkillDataID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
				"ClassID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
				"MultiplyBy": 1,
				"Operator": "Add"
			},
			"KeywordsIDs": [
				
			],
			"DurationType": "Infinite",
			"Duration": 0,
			"MaxStackQuantity": 0,
			"ApplicationBehavior": "UseLongerDurationIfAlreadyApplied",
			"ApplicationType": "ApplyOnTick",
			"IntervalRateID": "25acc41f-26a4-4ef7-9b7d-0f1bf0ddfe9f",
			"StackedChildrenApplyEffects": "false",
			"ApplicationPrerequisites": {
				"Conditional": {
					"Operator": 0,
					"Components": [
						
					]
				}
			},
			"TriggerAdjustment": {
				"TriggerOnEvent": "None",
				"TriggerOffEvent": "None",
				"ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
				"ParamValue": 0,
				"ValueAdjustment": 0,
				"DurationAdjustment": 0,
				"ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
				"MaxTriggerCount": 0,
				"IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
				"RemoveEffectAtMax": "false",
				"ChanceToTrigger": 1
			},
			"PowerLevelScaling": {
				"UseCharacterLevel": "false",
				"BaseLevel": 0,
				"LevelIncrement": 1,
				"MaxLevel": 0,
				"ValueAdjustment": 0,
				"DurationAdjustment": 0
			},
			"IsHostile": "false",
			"ClearOnCombatEnd": "false",
			"ClearOnRest": "false",
			"ClearOnFoodRest": "false",
			"ClearWhenAttacks": "false",
			"ClearOnDeath": "false",
			"HideFromCombatTooltip": "false",
			"HideFromCombatLog": "false",
			"HideFromUI": "false",
			"VisualEffects": [
				
			],
			"MaterialReplacementID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AttackFilter": {
				"KeywordsIDs": [
					
				],
				"KeywordLogic": "Or",
				"Range": "None",
				"ClassTypeID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
				"Source": "None",
				"DefendedBy": "None",
				"Empowered": "false",
				"Disengagement": "false",
				"Stealthed": "false",
				"UseStealthLinger": "false",
				"PowerLevel": 0,
				"PowerLevelOperator": "EqualTo",
				"ChanceToApply": 1,
				"AttackHostility": "Default"
			},
			"AttackTargetFilter": {
				"KeywordsIDs": [
					
				],
				"KeywordLogic": "Or",
				"Race": "None",
				"IsKith": "false",
				"HealthPercentage": 0,
				"HealthOperator": "EqualTo",
				"Distance": 0,
				"DistanceOperator": "EqualTo",
				"HasDOT": "false",
				"IsMarked": "false",
				"TargetHostility": "Default"
			},
			"ExtraValue": 0,
			"OverridePenetration": 0,
			"DamageTypeValue": "All",
			"KeywordValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"RaceValue": "None",
			"StatusEffectTypeValue": "None",
			"ItemValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AfflictionTypeValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"StatusEffectsValueIDs": [
				
			],
			"AttackValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AttackOverrideValue": "None",
			"EventValue": "OnApply",
			"ClassValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"WeaponTypeValue": "None",
			"AttackHitType": "None",
			"SkillValueID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"AudioEventListID": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
			"BedRestDaysMinimum": 0,
			"BedRestDaysMaximum": 0
		}
	]
}

You can see that most healing effects acts upon "StatusEffectType": "Health". BDD straights up acts upon "StatusEffectType": "PreventDeath". It imposes a condition that does not go through the same logic as other healing effects. It is different.

 

 

Consider means to an end

 

If you are saying that that BDD performs mathematically in a way that you say which I would represent as the ends part, in which it ensures that HP = 0 condition is not reached. Sure. But by extension, any buffs that works to ensure that the condition of HP = 0 is not reached can also qualify as healing.

 

Also I have already mentioned a real in-game situation why BDD can circumvent other "healing" effects in the game which you excluded in your quote of my post. This is to convince you that they are different. But I guess this is enough on my end. This is my long version of saying "lets agree to disagree"

Edited September 19, 2018 by mosspit

[thelee]

If you are saying that that BDD performs mathematically in a way that you say which I would represent as the ends part, in which it ensures that HP = 0 condition is not reached. Sure. But by extension, any buffs that works to ensure that the condition of HP = 0 is not reached can also qualify as healing.

 

Yes, this is exactly my point actually (see way, way above).

 

In terms of game systems design or evaluating some metagame/strategy, "healing" in the conventional tool-tip sense is not a useful enough definition, because ultimately what matters is "how long you stay alive." In that sense, BDD and healing accomplish the same goals, but they do so differently by changing which variable they keep fixed to accomplish it (in the mathematical model). Similarly any other buff that does this is also equivalent to healing. How it's actually implemented in-game is not useful from this higher-level perspective because the game designers could implement it as a bunch of monkeys that come to your house and change the bits in computer's memory corresponding to your character's health like an old fashioned NES Game Genie but the math would still work out the same.

 

 

 

This is my long version of saying "lets agree to disagree"

 

We don't have to do that, because it turns out we actually agree.

 

 

 

 

Also I have already mentioned a real in-game situation why BDD can circumvent other "healing" effects in the game which you excluded in your quote of my post.

 

if you're talking about the stuff you mentioned about not caring about total health pool, it's because it's not mathematically very interesting a distinction.

 

1. the abstraction is posited when you're at 1 health and one hit of any kind one would knock you out. in this abstraction, total health is essentially irrelevant.

 

2. if we want to broaden the abstraction a bit to include total health, it's still not too interesting. i.e. "instantaneous" damage can be thought of as essentially a damage over time effect with an infinitesimal duration. in that sense, "instant" healing can also be thought of as healing over time with an infinitesimal duration. in that sense, the fact that BDD can stop a hit >total health pool is still functionally equivalent to an equivalent heal over the same infinitesimal duration.

 

again this is from the mathematical angle. however game programmers want to implement it is an orthogonal issue.

Edited September 19, 2018 by thelee

[Vonmara]

Yeah, there it goes. I was careful to shut up about this but now it’s just a matter of time. Oh well, it’s been good while it lasted.

I had to kick Xoti out cause the game had become boring with this. Add barring death door on top.

[AndreaColombo]

As mentioned, I never take Boring Death’s Door. It’s extremely easy to avoid this combo in general, as it’s got high requirements. You could have kept Xoti and simply not used this particular combination of abilities.

 

After patch 1.1, I was unsure whether I’d play through the game again. Then I found this and figured I would. If it’s prevented or nerfed, I’ll be back to where I was—obviously my preference is not to.

[qbadger]

 

Thankfully for me, Pathfinder: Kingmaker will be our next week and I can stop desperately looking for ways to have fun with Deadfire.

Oh yes! It's tiiiime to saaay goodbyeeeee~!~!~!