Neat Party Trick: Eternal Ascension mode

[Discord1an]

First time poster here!

So, I've been enjoying the game, and playing an Ascendant Cipher has been fun, but the duration for the übermode always feels just too short, doesn't it? Even if you can use the Salvation of Time to make it last a bit longer. (And to be honest, one Ascension is plenty against the vast majority of fights.)

 

Now, I ran into the actual gimmick once I hit level 13 on the Cipher and got Ancestor's Memory. I discovered that the Brilliant Inspiration is busted when a slot caster class gets it. The fun here really begins when a friendly Priest gets it, and can from then on cast Salvation of Time as many times as you like (1 spellslot comes back every 3.0 seconds from Brilliant). So, buff up, Ascend, and enjoy your Eternal Ascension! No more need to build it up again, and since there are a couple of guns with nice activated abilities that basically fill your focus with one shot, it's easy livin' from there on out.

This is not a superbusted thing, I feel, and not really something that one really needs, but it is a fun trick and smooths up those long boss fights considerably.

[Manveru123]

This is probably one of the best first time posts I've ever seen. Nice combo.

[AndreaColombo]

Yeah, there it goes. I was careful to shut up about this but now it’s just a matter of time. Oh well, it’s been good while it lasted.

[mant2si]

Yes, this is my favorite combination of classes which I currently play Skaen/Streetfighter and Ascendant  Don't forget to buff both Priest & Cipher with Barring Death's Door and Suppress Affliction + you can have unlimited Priest summon (with Unlimited Robus inspiration) OR  take new cape, that summons illusions, cast on them Barring Death's Door  and enjoy 5 priests guys with Unlimited resources

But yeah, I think Obsidian should simple remove Briliant Inspiration from the game, it is to OP and just restore 1 - 2 class resources per ability cast and stop Salvation to increase Ascendant duration

This fix will resolve all issues at least for this combination

Edited September 17, 2018 by mant2si

[Discord1an]

This is probably one of the best first time posts I've ever seen. Nice combo.

 

Thank you. 'Tis nice to get feedback.

 

Yeah, there it goes. I was careful to shut up about this but now it’s just a matter of time. Oh well, it’s been good while it lasted.

 

Uh oh, I hope not. Building a great first impression here, spoiling a favourite secret.   

(Well, to be fair, Brilliant Inspiration is the bah-roken part of this thing, and how it just gives totally unlimited spellspam to slot casters. Probably needs fixin' anyways.)

[AndreaColombo]

I don’t think this combination really qualifies as an issue, but by now I know better than to put forward rational arguments when it comes to the game’s balance.

[Haplok]

Yes, this is my favorite combination of classes which I currently play Skaen/Streetfighter and Ascendant  Don't forget to buff both Priest & Cipher with Barring Death's Door and Suppress Affliction + you can have unlimited Priest summon (with Unlimited Robus inspiration) OR  take new cape, that summons illusions, cast on them Barring Death's Door  and enjoy 5 priests guys with Unlimited resources

 

But yeah, I think Obsidian should simple remove Briliant Inspiration from the game, it is to OP and just restore 1 - 2 class resources per ability cast and stop Salvation to increase Ascendant duration

 

This fix will resolve all issues at least for this combination

 

 

Remove Brilliant? Come on, why remove options? Don't you like your games to be fun?

I would consider blocking Ascension from being extended though, since it probably wasn't intended to be extra long.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Haplok

[mant2si]

I don’t think this combination really qualifies as an issue, but by now I know better than to put forward rational arguments when it comes to the game’s balance.

My issue is unlimited Suppress Affliction + BDD + Salvation combination, this make 2 guys in your party immune to everything, death, afflictions ...

[dunehunter]

 

I don’t think this combination really qualifies as an issue, but by now I know better than to put forward rational arguments when it comes to the game’s balance.

My issue is unlimited Suppress Affliction + BDD + Salvation combination, this make 2 guys in your party immune to everything, death, afflictions ...

 

 

Maybe make Salvation to only extend a base of 5 second duration, and make brilliant gives resource every 12 second instead?

[mant2si]

 

 

I don’t think this combination really qualifies as an issue, but by now I know better than to put forward rational arguments when it comes to the game’s balance.

My issue is unlimited Suppress Affliction + BDD + Salvation combination, this make 2 guys in your party immune to everything, death, afflictions ...

 

 

Maybe make Salvation to only extend a base of 5 second duration, and make brilliant gives resource every 12 second instead?

 

This change will make Salvation of Time completely useless skill, because it's duration doesn't scale with INT and PL 

 

> Make brilliant gives resource every 12 second instead

 

Why then not regain 2 resources per cast ?  

[Haplok]

It's a good idea, to make SoT a duration multiplier (x2?) rather then a static additive.

[Vorad]

 

I don’t think this combination really qualifies as an issue, but by now I know better than to put forward rational arguments when it comes to the game’s balance.

My issue is unlimited Suppress Affliction + BDD + Salvation combination, this make 2 guys in your party immune to everything, death, afflictions ...

 

To my knowledge when it comes to suppress Affliction, it only affects debuffs currently running on the char. If a debuff is reapplied then a new combat check is made and suppress won't work unless recast. Last time I noticed this was vs Fampyrs spamming domination on a playthrough I had a few weeks ago. For as long as resource count is limited (perhaps a rework on current resource renewals).

Edited September 17, 2018 by Vorad

[mant2si]

 

 

I don’t think this combination really qualifies as an issue, but by now I know better than to put forward rational arguments when it comes to the game’s balance.

My issue is unlimited Suppress Affliction + BDD + Salvation combination, this make 2 guys in your party immune to everything, death, afflictions ...

 

To my knowledge when it comes to suppress Affliction, it only affects debuffs currently running on the char. If a debuff is reapplied then a new combat check is made and suppress won't work unless recast. Last time I noticed this was vs Fampyrs spamming domination on a playthrough I had a few weeks ago.

 

Yes, I completely forget about that, never-mind, but  unlimited Minor Avatar or Shields for the Faithful is also very strong

[Boeroer]

Scordeo's 0-recovery enchantment + Salvation + Brilliant = finally permanent zero recovery for our AndreaColombo.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[Manveru123]

 

Yes, this is my favorite combination of classes which I currently play Skaen/Streetfighter and Ascendant  Don't forget to buff both Priest & Cipher with Barring Death's Door and Suppress Affliction + you can have unlimited Priest summon (with Unlimited Robus inspiration) OR  take new cape, that summons illusions, cast on them Barring Death's Door  and enjoy 5 priests guys with Unlimited resources

 

But yeah, I think Obsidian should simple remove Briliant Inspiration from the game, it is to OP and just restore 1 - 2 class resources per ability cast and stop Salvation to increase Ascendant duration

 

This fix will resolve all issues at least for this combination

 

 

Remove Brilliant? Come on, why remove options? Don't you like your games to be fun?

I would consider blocking Ascension from being extended though, since it probably wasn't intended to be extra long.

 

Obsidian doesn't let us have nice things. Because balunz.

 

Meanwhile there's a ****ton of bugs to fix, some still from the release, but who cares when you can nerf dual wield instead right.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

Meanwhile there's a ****ton of bugs to fix, some still from the release, but who cares when you can nerf dual wield instead right.

 

This.

Is my main issue with any kind of balance fixes even if they make sense (that first wave where every single item got nerfed? Nope that didn't make sense btw):

It's nice to invest time for balance, but it never should be more important than blatant game breaking bugs.

The giant cave grub unlimited swallow bug has been in the game in the very first version (it's not the only one but one of the most gamebreaking ones).

Not fixing it with first patch was bad enough, but not fixing it in all patches after?

But hey every single item got nerfed even the bad ones this had more priority and happened with the very first patch....

[Manveru123]

Well no worries, two more patches and maybe the final boss of the game will always show up.

[AndreaColombo]

Not holding my breath for the final boss. I am, however, fairly certain that the topic of this discussion will be over-nerfed in 3.0. Failing that, 3.1.

[mant2si]

I don't think that nerfing things like infinity BDD or 50+ ticks CW stacking has any relation to bug fixes, currently most of the time devs spent on developing new content. and not on balance 

[AndreaColombo]

The problem with infinity BDD lies with BDD, but guess what will remain unchanged when they get to this? You heard it here first.

[thelee]

It's a good idea, to make SoT a duration multiplier (x2?) rather then a static additive.

 

I would veto this if I could. Most buff durations are long enough as-is that making SoT a simple multiplier would rarely ever influence anything of meaning. The fact that it's a flat +20s/+10s means that it actually has worth as a PL6 spell in lengthening short-duration-but-powerful effects. (Though I wish it benefited from some sort of PL-scaling.)

 

That being said, the absolute fundamental problem is not mystic, ascendant, BDD, or SoT, it's that Brilliance is a busted inspiration and has been ever since 1.0. Instead of just removing it as a party-wide chanter invocation buff and adding it as single-target special buff the cipher gets access to at PL7, Obsidian should fix Brilliant and bring it in line with the other tier 3 inspirations.

 

edited to add: when the patch notes about Brilliant being added back in dropped in the beta patch notes thread, there were already giddy people like me talking about how ciphers just became brain-dead automatic inclusions into any serious party. It's not like Obsidian couldn't have seen this coming.

 

(Frankly, you don't even need to combine with ascendant to bust ancestor's memory. E.G. just put brilliant on a wizard and selectively keep re-casting level 4 Minoletta's crushing missiles. Unless they removed its interrupt since I last tried this, it basically means you can stunlock any boss in the game (even if they have a lot of concentration shields) while dealing crap tons of damage. brilliant is just fundamentally broken as-is, as this example illustrates you don't even need to metagame it that much to really wreck house.)

Edited September 17, 2018 by thelee

[Dorftek]

Now now settle down folks. Brilliance is a very OP buff considering that the only other way to regen resources is to spend empower points. Nerfing brilliance because of BDD, salvation and Ascended is wrong tho, also nerfing BDD because of brilliance is equally wrong. Make brilliance regen only PL1 and PL2 abilities? Not that I really care but I'd honestly be suprised if devs don't nerf an immortality combo while they do things like nerfing every proc in the game down into lottery RNG lvls. It's just a question of how severe it will be and what they will target.

[AndreaColombo]

I'll contribute my .02 safe in the knowledge it'll make no difference. I mostly do it as an exercise in style.

 

Barring Death's Door is essentially a timed God Mode cheat, which in itself is a wonky concept. I don't think there should be any ability that makes you completely unkillable for any length of time in the game, because it obviously lends itself to being abused. That said, if the ability must be there (which by now BDD does, as it's been there since the first game and it would be odd to remove it entirely from the game at this point), the most logical thing to do would be to make its duration not extendable by any means. Obviously this also means it's something that will never happen. I'm calling it now: BDD will remain untouched on the back of this thread.

 

Salvation of Time is good as is. Any change to Salvation of Time on the basis of something else being broken would be an awkward attempt at fixing an issue without actually fixing. It would be like, say, "fixing" Swift Flurry's recursive proc by lowering its proc chance instead of preventing crits generated by it from proccing other crits. Oh, wait... So yeah, I fully expect this spell to be over-nerfed into complete uselessness based on Deadfire's patch track record.

 

Let's consider the combo in question:

 

• It requires you to have Cipher in your party. The Cipher must take "Ancestor's Memory."
• It requires you to also have a Priest in your party. The Priest must take "Salvation of Time."
• If your Cipher is a multi-classed character, "Ancestor's Memory" only becomes available at 19th level, which is pretty late.
• So either you use a single party slot for a custom Cipher/Priest and get the combo late, or you use two party slots for specific classes with specific picks to executed it earlier ("Ancestor's Memory" becomes available at level 13th for a single-classed Cipher.)

This is not something you can casually, unwittingly run into and it completely trivializes your game. It is something you must know about and willfully seek. If you're willfully seeking it, you know what you're getting into. Complaining about it afterward is hypocritical.

 

If an ability is OP by itself and players can unwittingly pick it and suddenly find their every encounter's been trivialized by their choice, by all means that needs addressing. This was the case with Mob's Stance and Swift Flurry, for example (and even in those cases, the fixes implemented were very awkward workarounds.)

 

If a carefully constructed combination of abilities you couldn't possibly run into unless you were willfully seeking it is powerful, that's clever use of the game's mechanics; the resulting power is your reward. BDD is an exception, because as I mentioned it's practically a glorified God Mode cheat. There's a reason why God Mode is a cheat and not something games normally allow as part of the rules.

 

But really, this isn't even a must pick or a must execute. It's just a fun a little minigame. If you enjoy permanent buffs, you'll go for them and have fun. If you don't, you'll try this once for the kicks, then get bored and stop doing it.

Edited September 17, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[thelee]

Barring Death's Door is essentially a timed God Mode cheat, which in itself is a wonky concept. I don't think there should be any ability that makes you completely unkillable for any length of time in the game, because it obviously lends itself to being abused. That said, if the ability must be there (which by now BDD does, as it's been there since the first game and it would be odd to remove it entirely from the game at this point), the most logical thing to do would be to make its duration not extendable by any means. Obviously this also means it's something that will never happen. I'm calling it now: BDD will remain untouched on the back of this thread.

 

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)

 

The problem with this specific combo, again, is Brilliant, not BDD. Brilliant is what lets you take BDD's variable healing effect and turn it into perma-immortality. If you don't have Brilliant inspiration, BDD + Salvation of Time gets you huge amounts of effective healing against dumb AI (a smart human player would just move onto someone else or use Arcane Dampener), but it's not eternal.

 

If this were Magic: The Gathering, this would be like if we were in the depths of Mirrodin's affinity nonsense and people thought that the problem was Ornithopter.

Edited September 17, 2018 by thelee

[AndreaColombo]

My point is, being able to execute a combo with which your buffs can be extended indefinitely is fun. Remove Brilliant, and the fun is gone. All this to balance an ability that prevents you from dying.

 

Let's agree to disagree on BDD. Preventing me from being dead regardless of how much damage I'm taking when I only have 1 HP left doesn't count as healing for me.