Attribute Changes in Deadfire

[Artaios]

I am bit confused right now. I thought I read a while back that Deadfire would introduce changes in the attribute system. I remember some changes to Resolve and that Might would be Strength now and not apply to spell damage, which would be governed by Intellect now. I have not been keeping up with the news/patches and was waiting for the major rebalance patch before even starting the game. Been playing for a few days now and noticed that these changes are not present in the game. Can someone familiar with the situation clue me in? Maybe I am remembering things incorrectly. Thanks!

[house2fly]

That was something they did in the beta for a little while and then rolled it back. Spell damage was going to be affected by Resolve, to make Resolve more useful, but in the end they made it shorten hostile effects instead.

[Artaios]

That was something they did in the beta for a little while and then rolled it back. Spell damage was going to be affected by Resolve, to make Resolve more useful, but in the end they made it shorten hostile effects instead.

Ah, thanks. Too bad. I always thought it was weird that Might affected Wizards and Fighters alike.

[asnjas]

 

That was something they did in the beta for a little while and then rolled it back. Spell damage was going to be affected by Resolve, to make Resolve more useful, but in the end they made it shorten hostile effects instead.

Ah, thanks. Too bad. I always thought it was weird that Might affected Wizards and Fighters alike.

There is inner strength as well as physical. Wizard tap into the inner and mental strength. It makes perfect sense, might deals with the power of the ability so a wizard's fireball and fighters sword swing do more damage with might.

[house2fly]

The first game used quite a few Might checks for showing physical strength (hitting someone, lifting someone up in one hand etc) which bugged me because if you want to imagine your character as a scrawny wizard you have to either avoid Might checks or do less damage overall. Of course, I generally dump Might anyway (crits from high accuracy and overpen from high penetration matter more in terms of damage than even maxed-out Might) so I'm not really bothered

[Verde]

 

 

That was something they did in the beta for a little while and then rolled it back. Spell damage was going to be affected by Resolve, to make Resolve more useful, but in the end they made it shorten hostile effects instead.

Ah, thanks. Too bad. I always thought it was weird that Might affected Wizards and Fighters alike.

There is inner strength as well as physical. Wizard tap into the inner and mental strength. It makes perfect sense, might deals with the power of the ability so a wizard's fireball and fighters sword swing do more damage with might.

I wouldn't say it makes perfect sense. I would say it makes zero sense from both an RPG standpoint and an intuitive standpt.

 

No RPG I can think of has mixed physical and arcane power into one attribute. Might is 99% of the time associated with physical strength. Plus how exactly does Might affect healing? It's Stockholm Syndrome - we've grown to accept it because we must, but it's a terribly unintuitive system. Off the top of my head this is how it should be -

 

Mig - phys dmg, fort

Con - HP, fort, deflection

Dex - reflex, action speed, deflection

Per - acc, AoE size, reflex

Int - spell dmg and duration, will

Res - healing, -hostile effects, +beneficial effects/ability duration, will

 

The fact that Int is this super import attribute for any class with duration abilities is also stupid.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Verde

[fgalkin]

Most of the physical feats in PoE are actually magical in nature- like Charge, Rogues teleporting or turning invisible, etc. Since we know the soul affects the body (see: Pallegina's quest in Deadfire), high Might probably means "strong soul"

[asnjas]

 

 

 

That was something they did in the beta for a little while and then rolled it back. Spell damage was going to be affected by Resolve, to make Resolve more useful, but in the end they made it shorten hostile effects instead.

Ah, thanks. Too bad. I always thought it was weird that Might affected Wizards and Fighters alike.

There is inner strength as well as physical. Wizard tap into the inner and mental strength. It makes perfect sense, might deals with the power of the ability so a wizard's fireball and fighters sword swing do more damage with might.

I wouldn't say it makes perfect sense. I would say it makes zero sense from both an RPG standpoint and an intuitive standpt.

 

No RPG I can think of has mixed physical and arcane power into one attribute. Might is 99% of the time associated with physical strength. Plus how exactly does Might affect healing? It's Stockholm Syndrome - we've grown to accept it because we must, but it's a terribly unintuitive system. Off the top of my head this is how it should be -

 

Mig - phys dmg, fort

Con - HP, fort, deflection

Dex - reflex, action speed, deflection

Per - acc, AoE size, reflex

Int - spell dmg and duration, will

Res - healing, -hostile effects, +beneficial effects/ability duration, will

 

The fact that Int is this super import attribute for any class with duration abilities is also stupid.

Being done one way does not mean it's superior or more reasonable.

 

Might determining damage makes more sense than intellect. Might literally means power and strength. A mighty wizard is a powerful wizard. Conculhaut was a mighty wizard lol. Conculhaut being a mighty wizard leads me to believe he casts powerful spells. People just can't accept new things. What you commonly think of doesn't match the ideas that might actually represents. Might is power not physical power.

 

Again, might refers to power so what difference does it make if it's healing power or damage power? Might refers to power so a powerful xaster will cast powerful healing spells. Might is not limited to destruction. Sounds like you can't help but assign your own meaning to these concepts and ignore their true meaning.

[Artaios]

It makes a difference because wizards and the like depend on their intellect and knowledge and fighters depend on a strong arm and good constitution. I realize that this is a game mechanic but trying to rationalize it in relation to the world is futile.

[Verde]

Calm down there bud. I'm not assigning my own meaning. I literally just told you that no other RPG I can think of does it this way.

 

In addition, Might is generally associated with physical power. Have you ever heard someone say "intellectual might" or something similar? Mighty intellect? Mighty healing? No. No, because it's not a thing. And lol @true meaning because one RPG series uses it. You actually did the very thing you accused me of, but in a more comical manner, using the very word in your definition of it.

 

And if you want to get specific, the definition of Might is bodily strength. Not spiritual, or arcane, or mental. Bodily. So you are wrong there as well.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Verde

[MaxQuest]

Can someone familiar with the situation clue me in? Maybe I am remembering things incorrectly. Thanks!

As house2fly already answered, it was an experiment during Beta. Resolve was increasing spell damage and healing done.

But in the end it was reverted because it wasn't balanced enough and also was resulting in a lesser number of good builds.

 

You can check these threads: one, two, three, four, etc

[tinysalamander]

Calm down there bud. I'm not assigning my own meaning. I literally just told you that no other RPG I can think of does it this way.

Since when you have to do a game only the way it was done before?

[Verde]

 

Calm down there bud. I'm not assigning my own meaning. I literally just told you that no other RPG I can think of does it this way.

Since when you have to do a game only the way it was done before?

You don't but your majorly simplifying it.

 

If 99% of games do something a certain way with slight variations, then there is prob a reason why. We are talking about staples in a genre.

 

And again, for the third or fourth time, it's not JUST because it was done this way before, and continues to be done this way - it makes sense the way it was done before. Might as spell damage and healing % doesn't make much sense. I could scrounge and find a multitude of reviewers that agree with me, from reading about it previously, but I'm on my phone and I won't.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Verde

[house2fly]

Personally, I'd prefer to have it like this:

Might determines melee weapon damage done and spell area-of-effect / duration, Intelligence determines spell damage done, Perception determines ranged weapon damage done, Constitution determines healing received, everything else can pretty much stay the same

[asnjas]

Calm down there bud. I'm not assigning my own meaning. I literally just told you that no other RPG I can think of does it this way.

 

In addition, Might is generally associated with physical power. Have you ever heard someone say "intellectual might" or something similar? Mighty intellect? Mighty healing? No. No, because it's not a thing. And lol @true meaning because one RPG series uses it. You actually did the very thing you accused me of, but in a more comical manner, using the very word in your definition of it.

 

And if you want to get specific, the definition of Might is bodily strength. Not spiritual, or arcane, or mental. Bodily. So you are wrong there as well.

Chill out ace. One game doesn't have to follow the lead of all others. I don't understand how this is a point.

 

Also might is not only bodily strength. There are many great dictionaries you can check out and personally I recommend a quick browse. Might is also power and force to do something. Its literally a definition of the word. This easily explains the effectiness, power and force, of spells. Sorry. You may not like it but that doesn't mean it can't be used to explain damage and healing power.

 

And actually, yes, I've heard the word mighty to describe a person's spirit as in its a strong spirit. That person has a lot of fight in them. It's used like this Because it's a thing.

 

Plus, it's more balanced and good for the game. Why have meaningless stats for certain classes? Character creation in poe2 is great since every stat helps every class.

[fgalkin]

It makes a difference because wizards and the like depend on their intellect and knowledge and fighters depend on a strong arm and good constitution. I realize that this is a game mechanic but trying to rationalize it in relation to the world is futile.

Not in Eora. In Eora, both are dependent on the strength of your soul (represented as the power level, I guess). The most knowledgeable archmages aren't actually all that tough, compared even to the average dragon (which is completely different from, say, D&D, where the dragon would have basically no chance against a wizard like Elminster) 

[Artaios]

 

It makes a difference because wizards and the like depend on their intellect and knowledge and fighters depend on a strong arm and good constitution. I realize that this is a game mechanic but trying to rationalize it in relation to the world is futile.

Not in Eora. In Eora, both are dependent on the strength of your soul (represented as the power level, I guess). The most knowledgeable archmages aren't actually all that tough, compared even to the average dragon (which is completely different from, say, D&D, where the dragon would have basically no chance against a wizard like Elminster) 

 

I really doubt that muscle has no effect on how much damage you can deal. Even in Eora.

[Clawdius_Talonious]

What you're finding lacking isn't the game, it's your suspension of disbelief. I can't say why, in a world where you're constantly powering abilities that would be magic in our world, you think that the limits of and definitions of words gives you a reason to complain. It's fine to offer constructive criticism, but you've made up your mind about might. Apparently you can in no way even begin to imagine that e.g. motes of soul energy are naturally drawn to mighty souls giving them both more arcane and physical power. But this is a world where you use your soul energy to fuel everything from a rogue's stepping into the shadows to a wizard casting a fireball or a knight regaining health based off incoming damage.

 

If you can keep suspension of disbelief in the face of the plethora of fantasy concepts and ideas at work in Eora, but you fall down at "I want Might to only mean physical strength!" then I feel sorry for you. If you can't imagine that a 90 year old billionaire in the real world is mightier than you, you have a hard time understanding what power is. If you think that there weren't more wasted threads on this subject than I can even count, well before these things were set back in Pillars 1... you're mistaken. If you're one of those old "Words mean what I say they mean!" crowd back then too, and the idea that they were reconsidering stats for Pillars 2 made you come back now to post... I'd say you're not really a big fan, you just maybe bought the game and came around to whinge that things aren't as you would have them be.

 

But when it comes to words, they're all made up, every single one of them. Every word has a linguistic predecessor, and often times turns of phrase wind up meaning exactly the opposite of what was intended. It happens to phrases routinely, now some are used unironically. Pull yourself up by your boot straps is a good one. It meant "Something that cannot be done" because tug as you'd like, tug all day, you aren't going too pull yourself to your feet by sitting on the ground pulling at your boot straps. The silent majority is a fun one too, because it was originally used to refer to the dead. You probably think you are aware of the idea of a villain, or a thug. Originally Villains were farmers, and Thags were just common laborers. At one time a wife was to be buxom to her husband, but there was no need for an endowment of specific physical attributes, because buxom meant that she would comply with his demands. Etymology is funny that way.

 

That is not to say that I don't understand where you're coming from after a fashion, I loathe when people say something was decimated when clearly more than 10% of it was removed or damaged. Language is alive, and it's constantly shifting, so instead of coming around and blathering about how you would have done it differently... get out there, hop to it, show us your game! I'm always down too play a new RPG. You can even name a stat Perspicacity, or Legerdemain, and I wouldn't even complain in your game's forums if Perspicacity allowed your player character to for all intents and purposes read minds, or if legerdemain is used when someone needs to sew on a button.

 

Our hobby isn't immutable, it's not even set in stone. When people come around willfully ignoring even the idea that there are probably a lot of other threads they could read before they started posting about how they don't like the system having been reverted to something more akin to Pillars... I'm not sure there's anything I could say that would help with whatever it is you feel aggrieved by.

 

If it helps you, picture this: More soul essence means more might in both the spiritual and physical sense. A powerful soul could be a simple farmer, investing the motes of soul energy drawn to him into building more muscle mass. He could learn to move faster, feel less burden under a heavy load, recover naturally without aid from minor injuries... Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

Another Eoran could be a priest, an abundance of soul essence is drawn to him, he looks like he barely eats, his emaciated form gaunt beneath his robes. But when he lets loose on those he considers worthy of his wrath, beating them with a cane or calling down holy retribution on them are both acts of might in the land of Eora.

 

Fictional places can be different than the physical world, or even other fictional works. I read an article about a science fiction author who posited a sort of time travelling interstellar sublight human government. They all froze themselves at regular intervals, thaw for a month, back in the tubes for however many years. Those were the locksteppers, people in space, people on the ground, the vast majority of Human kind had opted to freeze themselves so that they could be alive to see family who made interstellar voyages. The article was about the fact that he was receiving a ton of death threats. People were down right irate that he described a fictional world where faster than light travel didn't exist.

 

I'm not saying you're that kind of person, I'm really just saying, chill out man it's a work of fiction. Fictional characters and universes can do or be whatever, it's okay. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Clawdius_Talonious

[Verde]

 

Calm down there bud. I'm not assigning my own meaning. I literally just told you that no other RPG I can think of does it this way.

 

In addition, Might is generally associated with physical power. Have you ever heard someone say "intellectual might" or something similar? Mighty intellect? Mighty healing? No. No, because it's not a thing. And lol @true meaning because one RPG series uses it. You actually did the very thing you accused me of, but in a more comical manner, using the very word in your definition of it.

 

And if you want to get specific, the definition of Might is bodily strength. Not spiritual, or arcane, or mental. Bodily. So you are wrong there as well.

Chill out ace. One game doesn't have to follow the lead of all others. I don't understand how this is a point.

 

Also might is not only bodily strength. There are many great dictionaries you can check out and personally I recommend a quick browse. Might is also power and force to do something. Its literally a definition of the word. This easily explains the effectiness, power and force, of spells. Sorry. You may not like it but that doesn't mean it can't be used to explain damage and healing power.

 

And actually, yes, I've heard the word mighty to describe a person's spirit as in its a strong spirit. That person has a lot of fight in them. It's used like this Because it's a thing.

 

Plus, it's more balanced and good for the game. Why have meaningless stats for certain classes? Character creation in poe2 is great since every stat helps every class.

Well there you're wrong bucko. Check out the builds section...how many dump Resolve? It's a classic dump stat despite Obs best efforts.

 

Back on topic - so you're saying that spell casters use spirit as a power source? Last time I checked it was arcane or intellect. So spirit has nothing to do with it. So even in you're own example you're wrong.

 

99% of RPGs separate physical and spell damage stats. It's an industry standard for a reason.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Verde

[Artaios]

What you're finding lacking isn't the game, it's your suspension of disbelief. I can't say why, in a world where you're constantly powering abilities that would be magic in our world, you think that the limits of and definitions of words gives you a reason to complain. It's fine to offer constructive criticism, but you've made up your mind about might. Apparently you can in no way even begin to imagine that e.g. motes of soul energy are naturally drawn to mighty souls giving them both more arcane and physical power. But this is a world where you use your soul energy to fuel everything from a rogue's stepping into the shadows to a wizard casting a fireball or a knight regaining health based off incoming damage.

 

...

Please step down from your soapbox. I cannot imagine whom here in this thread you are addressing who is 'aggrieved' or 'lacks imagination'. People here ARE discussing or offering criticism and offering arguments for why they believe Might should represent physical strength only. No less than you are. No need to lecture us on things we already know. I can imagine a soul having effects such as you describe but there is still no accounting of muscle strength in the system.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Artaios

[Verde]

What you're finding lacking isn't the game, it's your suspension of disbelief. I can't say why, in a world where you're constantly powering abilities that would be magic in our world, you think that the limits of and definitions of words gives you a reason to complain. It's fine to offer constructive criticism, but you've made up your mind about might. Apparently you can in no way even begin to imagine that e.g. motes of soul energy are naturally drawn to mighty souls giving them both more arcane and physical power. But this is a world where you use your soul energy to fuel everything from a rogue's stepping into the shadows to a wizard casting a fireball or a knight regaining health based off incoming damage.

 

If you can keep suspension of disbelief in the face of the plethora of fantasy concepts and ideas at work in Eora, but you fall down at "I want Might to only mean physical strength!" then I feel sorry for you. If you can't imagine that a 90 year old billionaire in the real world is mightier than you, you have a hard time understanding what power is. If you think that there weren't more wasted threads on this subject than I can even count, well before these things were set back in Pillars 1... you're mistaken. If you're one of those old "Words mean what I say they mean!" crowd back then too, and the idea that they were reconsidering stats for Pillars 2 made you come back now to post... I'd say you're not really a big fan, you just maybe bought the game and came around to whinge that things aren't as you would have them be.

 

But when it comes to words, they're all made up, every single one of them. Every word has a linguistic predecessor, and often times turns of phrase wind up meaning exactly the opposite of what was intended. It happens to phrases routinely, now some are used unironically. Pull yourself up by your boot straps is a good one. It meant "Something that cannot be done" because tug as you'd like, tug all day, you aren't going too pull yourself to your feet by sitting on the ground pulling at your boot straps. The silent majority is a fun one too, because it was originally used to refer to the dead. You probably think you are aware of the idea of a villain, or a thug. Originally Villains were farmers, and Thags were just common laborers. At one time a wife was to be buxom to her husband, but there was no need for an endowment of specific physical attributes, because buxom meant that she would comply with his demands. Etymology is funny that way.

 

That is not to say that I don't understand where you're coming from after a fashion, I loathe when people say something was decimated when clearly more than 10% of it was removed or damaged. Language is alive, and it's constantly shifting, so instead of coming around and blathering about how you would have done it differently... get out there, hop to it, show us your game! I'm always down too play a new RPG. You can even name a stat Perspicacity, or Legerdemain, and I wouldn't even complain in your game's forums if Perspicacity allowed your player character to for all intents and purposes read minds, or if legerdemain is used when someone needs to sew on a button.

 

Our hobby isn't immutable, it's not even set in stone. When people come around willfully ignoring even the idea that there are probably a lot of other threads they could read before they started posting about how they don't like the system having been reverted to something more akin to Pillars... I'm not sure there's anything I could say that would help with whatever it is you feel aggrieved by.

 

If it helps you, picture this: More soul essence means more might in both the spiritual and physical sense. A powerful soul could be a simple farmer, investing the motes of soul energy drawn to him into building more muscle mass. He could learn to move faster, feel less burden under a heavy load, recover naturally without aid from minor injuries... Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

Another Eoran could be a priest, an abundance of soul essence is drawn to him, he looks like he barely eats, his emaciated form gaunt beneath his robes. But when he lets loose on those he considers worthy of his wrath, beating them with a cane or calling down holy retribution on them are both acts of might in the land of Eora.

 

Fictional places can be different than the physical world, or even other fictional works. I read an article about a science fiction author who posited a sort of time travelling interstellar sublight human government. They all froze themselves at regular intervals, thaw for a month, back in the tubes for however many years. Those were the locksteppers, people in space, people on the ground, the vast majority of Human kind had opted to freeze themselves so that they could be alive to see family who made interstellar voyages. The article was about the fact that he was receiving a ton of death threats. People were down right irate that he described a fictional world where faster than light travel didn't exist.

 

I'm not saying you're that kind of person, I'm really just saying, chill out man it's a work of fiction. Fictional characters and universes can do or be whatever, it's okay.

TlDr - No pt in debating fantasy or fiction because anything can be done and words are all made up.

 

In that case I'm going to write a short story where everyone had tentacles heads, has eyes on their toes and talk out their anal cavities. I'll call talking "clacking" and fornicating "knuckling". It's fantasy and anything can be done.

 

Or maybe fantasy is an extension of reality, where words have meaning, and naturally people make linkages? This allows us to escape because there is some semblance of realism. If this wasn't the case, then RPGs wouldn't be copying each other since they began and there wouldn't be standards of in all forms of fiction and fantasy.

 

Try this - suggest a change to form where Dragons are actually the weakest enemies within a fantasy universe, and the strongest are Kobolds. You can do anything right? Yeah but no one is going to buy it.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Verde

[Boeroer]

But we did buy it.

 

It's called Deadfire - where the thugs on Gorecci Street tear you a new one, then the panthers shred you to tiny bits when you dare to enter their digsite and where the dragons fall over when you sneeze at them. Hatchooo!

[Verde]

Judging by constant complaints about early game difficulty vs late, I'd say "we" didn't;)

Edited August 20, 2018 by Verde

[Larena]

Nothing in Pillars of Eternity ever indicates that magic or arcane power comes solely from intellect.

 

Surely, yes, we meet many smart mages but those mages are magical theorists. People who study magic academically. There are just as many mages in the game who don't show any signs of being smarter than average.

 

Maia, for example, can be a wizard. Her magic, in that case, clearly comes from somewhere other than pure intellect since hers is only 10.

 

Also in general I think tying "magical damage" to a separate stat is problematic because where do you draw the line? Many fighter and rogue abilities are clearly magical. Do Druids rely on intlligence for magic even though theirs CERTAINLY comes from a place other than books they've read? Do priests? Do Ciphers?

 

You assume magic in the POE setting works like it does in D&D but it very obviously doesn't. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Verde]

Nothing in Pillars of Eternity ever indicates that magic or arcane power comes solely from intellect.

 

Surely, yes, we meet many smart mages but those mages are magical theorists. People who study magic academically. There are just as many mages in the game who don't show any signs of being smarter than average.

 

Maia, for example, can be a wizard. Her magic, in that case, clearly comes from somewhere other than pure intellect since hers is only 10.

 

Also in general I think tying "magical damage" to a separate stat is problematic because where do you draw the line? Many fighter and rogue abilities are clearly magical. Do Druids rely on intlligence for magic even though theirs CERTAINLY comes from a place other than books they've read? Do priests? Do Ciphers?

 

You assume magic in the POE setting works like it does in D&D but it very obviously doesn't. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

The power source of magic in PoE2 is "Arcane" and is governed by Might and *Intellect* attributes.

 

Outside of the game telling us Phys and Spell damage is determined by the same attribute, there is nothing else lore wise dictating so. It's simply a mechanic created by the Devs to change things up and remove "dump" stats, to which they have not succeeded.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Verde