Dual-wielding, full attacks, and recovery

[jww]

I was wondering if someone with more knowledge about the game internals could chime in.

 

It seems like everyone is in agreement that dual-wielding is significantly more powerful than the other weapon styles due to full attacks. I think someone did a comparison showing that auto-attacks were pretty comparable across dual-wielding and two-hand (and maybe single-weapon?), so the problem comes down to every martial class having access to low-cost full attacks.

 

Has anyone worked out exactly what that means? I feel like I've noticed six different benefits that dual-wielders get:

 

1. They get to attack twice using the stats of the full attack ability (this one is obvious).

 

2. If the attack applies an affliction or something similar, they have two chances to apply the affliction. (Afflictions don't stack, so while the damage calculations of missing vs. hitting are obvious, two chances to apply an affliction is a major benefit that's somewhat less obvious.)

 

3. Similar to afflictions, if the attack has a chance to return resources or do something else on crit, dual-wielding gives two chances to do so. Even if that thing can only happen once, having two chances to trigger it is still a major benefit.

 

4. Dual-wielding means faster recovery, which means they can take other actions such as casting spells or making another full attack more quickly. So not only do they get major benefits from full attacks, but they can also make those attacks more quickly. Obsidian appears to have balanced dual-wield recovery time based on auto-attacks, but that doesn't take other types of actions into account.

 

5. When making a full attack while dual-wielding, it waits for the recovery from the previous action, but does not wait for recovery between the first and second hit from the full attack. It feels like there's less than a second in between the two halves of a full attack. And after the full attack, before moving on to your next action, it feels like it only does a single weapon's worth of recovery. This is a very significant speed increase above and beyond what they already get for dual-wielding.

 

6. They get bonuses from two different weapons. In theory, this should be solved by two-handed weapons having better benefits, but in practice, I haven't really noticed that. (Sword & Shield gets this benefit as well, but Sword & Shield is kind of its own thing, and isn't as much of a concern for this conversation.)

 

Do these sound accurate, and are there any other benefits to dual-wielding that I missed?

 

#1 alone would provide an advantage to dual-wielding over other weapon styles, but if you add together #1 through #6, things are very lopsided.

 

I don't really think they should change dual-wielding or full attacks much at this stage of the game, but I think there needs to be a serious re-think of how the other weapon styles handle full attacks, to make them at least somewhat competitive. There have been a number of threads discussing the issue, but I wasn't sure if anyone had made a post listing out all the bonuses to dual-wielding in one spot.

 

[dunehunter]

You pretty much summarize the cases.

[AndreaColombo]

I don't really think they should change dual-wielding or full attacks much at this stage of the game, but I think there needs to be a serious re-think of how the other weapon styles handle full attacks, to make them at least somewhat competitive.

 

Agreed.

[Dorftek]

 

I don't really think they should change dual-wielding or full attacks much at this stage of the game, but I think there needs to be a serious re-think of how the other weapon styles handle full attacks, to make them at least somewhat competitive.

Agreed.

I second that!

[Boeroer]

Totally

[Clerith]

Very well put together. Everything you said is true.

[jww]

Thanks for looking it over, everyone.

 

Do we think Obsidian is aware of the full extent of the discrepancy? Every weapon style is supposed to have one bonus over the others, but martial classes having six extra bonuses for a particular weapon style has got to be unintentional, right?

 

If they read these boards thoroughly, or play the game a lot, they've got to know.... but if they base balancing decisions only on telemetry, I wonder if that's really sufficient to discover the extent of the problem. I mean, I play different weapon styles just for variety, when I get tired of dual-wielding (but am generally disappointed in the results). And the abilities involved are spread across a bunch of different classes, so it might be harder to see patterns in the telemetry.

 

I was really hoping they'd do something for the 2.0 patch, but the 2.0 beta, at least, didn't really do anything in this area.

[mant2si]

And again only rangers Twinned Shot is really good alternative for full attack.

It cost 2 bond - same as barbaric blow, but higher than crippling strike
It make 2 primary attack - but only with 2PL
It has 1 recovery and if you use range weapon it trigger x2 with x2 projectiles attack

Edited July 30, 2018 by mant2si

[Franknstein]

Yes, that's all true. And half-swording two swords at the same time – to imagine that melts my mind. =)

 

And, come to think of it, there is the Ring the Bell ability that discriminates between one-handed, two-handed and ranged effects. Maybe all full attacks should do it? Like, basic ability effect w. dual-wield, some hefty bonus for two-handed?

Edited July 30, 2018 by Franknstein

[thundercleese]

My solution would be some kind of penalty when dual wielding (less damage/accuracy/pen) which is what other games have done, including the IE series of games. This way you don't gimp one-handed style (which is probably the most underused atm). Something like 5-10% less base damage, 5-10 less accuracy, or 1-2 less pen. This also makes sense as you're having to coordinate two full sized weapons; of course you're not going to be as efficient. They could even make the penalties steeper, with talents to reduce them.

[jww]

My solution would be some kind of penalty when dual wielding (less damage/accuracy/pen) which is what other games have done, including the IE series of games. This way you don't gimp one-handed style (which is probably the most underused atm). Something like 5-10% less base damage, 5-10 less accuracy, or 1-2 less pen. This also makes sense as you're having to coordinate two full sized weapons; of course you're not going to be as efficient. They could even make the penalties steeper, with talents to reduce them.

 

I suspect a solution like that would have worked better before the game was released. At this point in the life cycle, I imagine it would generate some ill will.

 

I'd lean toward something that targeted full attacks only, since those appear to be the main cause of the issue. Something that makes them more competitive for the other weapon styles, so that players view it as a win for those styles rather than a loss for dual-wielding. Maybe damage plus a small accuracy bonus for two-hand, and hit-to-crit plus PEN bonus for single-weapon?

[Purudaya]

My solution would be some kind of penalty when dual wielding (less damage/accuracy/pen) which is what other games have done, including the IE series of games. This way you don't gimp one-handed style (which is probably the most underused atm). Something like 5-10% less base damage, 5-10 less accuracy, or 1-2 less pen. This also makes sense as you're having to coordinate two full sized weapons; of course you're not going to be as efficient. They could even make the penalties steeper, with talents to reduce them.

This is a good idea, but I'd rather see them buff one-handed/two handed up rather than nerf two-weapon down (as you'd really have to take away a lot to truly make up for all of the advantages). Although I guess I would agree that a nerf to off-hand accuracy could be in order.

 

I'd really like to see the devs get creative and come up with some unique effects for one/two-handed (let two-handed full attacks affect a 60° cone, give one-handed the ability to apply longer effect durations, etc.) Have any of the devs even acknowledged the weapon style issue? 2.0 doesn't address it at all.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Purudaya

[uuuhhii]

two handed should have higher base pen and damage to be consider viable option for melee

[Boeroer]

This was already discussed in a former thread, but it can't hurt to bring this to OBS attention again.

 

I think dunehunter suggested that two handed weapons should just get a max dmg roll with Full Attacks. I found that pretty interesting. Basically it's a base damage increase for Full Attacks with two handers and makes them very predictable (when it comes to dmg output). I liked that suggestion best so far. It would still not compete with dual wielding - but one could always add a short interrupt on crit or so. Another suggestion was to hit multiple targets - while that makes sense with a great sword or pollaxe it's a bit "eh?" for pikes, staffs and the like.

 

Since single one handers already crit a lot and Full Attacks often get additional bonus ACC - and also bonus base dmg through Power Level - I would think that bonus crit damage on Full Attack would be neat, wouldn't it? One would have to check how high it needs to be to be on par with dual weapons and improved two handers, but I guess +25% wouldn't be too bad?

[Boeroer]

two handed should have higher base pen and damage to be consider viable option for melee

Two hander already got +1 PEN with the 1.2 patch. They also already have enough base damage to compete with one handers when it comes to auto-attacks (paired with the higher PEN).

 

Raising the base damage for two handers doesn't solve the Full Attack problem. All weapons need something special for Full Attack so that they are balanced for auto-attacks, Primary Attacks and Full Attacks.

 

And two handers shouldn't get better than dual wieldig with Full Attacks because they are already the better choice with most Primary Attacks.

 

But they (and single handed style) def. need to see some improvement for Full Attacks.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Boeroer

[Franknstein]

Hm. Make full attaks add an extra attack for two-handers and single weapons. Problem solved?

[thundercleese]

Hm. Make full attaks add an extra attack for two-handers and single weapons. Problem solved?

That would just make two-handers the undesputed champions of weapons, outside of special interactions between weapons.

[Clerith]

Trying to bring dw and 2h into constant perfect balance at every point is just unnecessary homogenization.

 

In my ideal world, for auto-attacks, dw would be ahead for low armor, 2h would be ahead for high armor, and they'd be balanced for medium armor. That only makes sense if you ask me. As for skills, Full Attacks should be better with dw, but Primary Attacks should be better with 2h. That only makes sense too - in a Full Attack you attack with both weapons, while Primary Attack is just with one weapon, so... 

 

What I'd like to see would be buffing Primary Attacks for 2hs (increased damage by weapon base damage or something), and then rebalancing some skills into Full Attacks and some into Primary Attacks, so we'd have a balanced mix of both for all classes.

[Franknstein]

 

Hm. Make full attaks add an extra attack for two-handers and single weapons. Problem solved?

That would just make two-handers the undesputed champions of weapons, outside of special interactions between weapons.

 

 

Would it? No faster recovery, no bonuses from two different weapons, so still 2 bonus points listed by the OP behind dual-wielders.

[grasida]

And again only rangers Twinned Shot is really good alternative for full attack.

It cost 2 bond - same as barbaric blow, but higher than crippling strike

It make 2 primary attack - but only with 2PL

It has 1 recovery and if you use range weapon it trigger x2 with x2 projectiles attack

Clear Out pushes enemies out of melee range, making it hard to use for sustained damage, but it’s also a model of a strong primary attack. It hits the primary target twice, hits a bunch of other enemies around you once and only costs 2 discipline.

 

This was already discussed in a former thread, but it can't hurt to bring this to OBS attention again.

I think dunehunter suggested that two handed weapons should just get a max dmg roll with Full Attacks. I found that pretty interesting. Basically it's a base damage increase for Full Attacks with two handers and makes them very predictable (when it comes to dmg output). I liked that suggestion best so far. It would still not compete with dual wielding - but one could always add a short interrupt on crit or so. Another suggestion was to hit multiple targets - while that makes sense with a great sword or pollaxe it's a bit "eh?" for pikes, staffs and the like.

Since single one handers already crit a lot and Full Attacks often get additional bonus ACC - and also bonus base dmg through Power Level - I would think that bonus crit damage on Full Attack would be neat, wouldn't it? One would have to check how high it needs to be to be on par with dual weapons and improved two handers, but I guess +25% wouldn't be too bad?

I think 25% crit damage would be a pretty weak bonus, since crits aren’t multiplicative with other damage bonuses. Plus 10 accuracy would be better.

 

First, it would make single weapon more of an alternative to dual wield if you’re mostly interested in applying on hit effects, especially if you already have good accuracy, which fits the flavor of single weapon style very well. Around the point that accuracy=deflection for a dual wield character, they’d have a better chance to apply afflictions with a single weapon than dual wielding.

 

Second, an accuracy bonus would make single weapon more a choice for characters like swift flurry and stunning surge monks or skalds that want to get as many crits as possible. Even if single weapon full attacks did more damage on their own when critting than full attacks (they wouldn’t with +25% crit damage almost for sure), the builds that care about crits the most would still prefer dual wielding in order to maximize the total number of crits and on-crit procs that are more powerful than some extra damage.

 

The biggest problem with these kinds of changes to full attacks is that it’s really complicated compared to right now. I’d prefer to just change a bunch of the full attacks to primary attacks and buff them to compensate.

Edited July 31, 2018 by grasida

[arkane83]

What if we looked at the recovery side?

 

From a nerf perspective you could add both weapons recovery together for dual wielding full attacks. That would actually make some sense since two weapons are kinda bulky.

 

From a buffing perspective, maybe all weapons should have another look at recovery times. Many people complain about combat feeling sluggish, and two handed weapons amplify that, especially in armor. Maybe two handed should have a built in armored grace type effect, 20% or so less armor penalty when wielding a two handed weapon.

 

One thing I like about buffing recovery time, even across the board, is that enemies get it too. That would make combat harder in some cases.

[AndreaColombo]

I made a small mod for personal use that brings weapon recovery times back to what they were in the first iteration of the Deadfire beta (1s shorter across the board.) Plays so much better. In that context recovery penalties are more acceptable; recovery bonuses less necessary.

 

I like the idea of giving 2H a max damage roll on full attacks; not sure how to make 1H more attractive though.

[Boeroer]

+10 ACC would be fine by me - although it could be overkill with the +12 you already get, the ACC bonus most full attacks have and the crit conversion. That's why I thought increased crit damage would be nice.

 

Instant recovery after Full Attack maybe?

[mant2si]

I agree with everyone who offer to buff primary attack skills, they by design created for 2H weapon
 

For example add +50% crash lash to Mule Kick instead of +25% damage
Make Crushing Blow use primary attack in cone, target deflection (i.e when full attack from Barbaric Smash trigger only 2 carnage and may return rage, cone attack can trigger multiple carnages and apply multiple weapon effects)

This change will also give players that feeling when they need to decide which upgrade select on level up, I will go further and make all weapon skills has at least 1 upgrade (primary or full attack)

Via skills developers can make primary attack apply stronger affliction, for example primary attack with crippling strike can apply paralyze affliction for 2s (as rogue you will need to decide cheap full attack or cheap affliction)

Let's go further, one hand weapon and shield & sword will be also tuned up
If developers will add more on-crit (melee :D) effects we can build around +12 accuracy, I will  also change one-hand style to +16 acc (I assume with this bonuses Assasin will prefer 1H style instead of 2DW)

One-hand style change will also make enemies destroy deflection stacking builds 

Such small changes can make game much funnier, I can only imagine how much builds we can create with at least primary attack boost

 

 
That pretty easy and even moders can do this changes

Edited July 31, 2018 by mant2si

[eschu101]

Does it matter which weapon i use in my main hand or offhand? Faster recovery in main hand?