Beta Patch 2.0 is live...and so far it looks more like a 1.5

[Boeroer]

 

Sacred Immolation isn't that bad: if I use Voidward, cast Sacred Immolation and then put Greater Lay on Hands on me I barely lose 88 health after all (at lvl 20 - no special healing bonuses).

 

Singing Her Courage Thick as Steel also helps a lot. With Brisk Recitation it will take away 10 damage of each pulse away. Then my paladin only loses 47 health.

 

With Courage, Physiker's Belt and Practiced Healer I lose 30 health overall.

 

Other damage reductions that mention "incoming weapon damage" (like on Nerian's Ward) don't work against the self damage. Maybe others that don't use that restriction work?

If my character wanna suicide, he has better way than suicide immolation.

Erm... Well the whole point was that it's far from suicide. And even if it was (which it isn't): There are also few abilities that deal a substantial amount of AoE dmg while committing suicide - so which way would be the better way for you?

 

Few people complain about Berserker's self damage at PL 7 - although it's very high at that point. And he doesn't even have a powerful healing ability to counter that like the paladin has.

Because nobody tells them. It's obscured. But they see 43 raw damage per tick on SA and go all "wooot? Nooo way!".

[Teclis23]

I am incredibly disappointed after reading these patch notes. I played Deadfire for about 40-50 hours and then stopped after i encountered some very significant problems with several classes with there balancing and also the hardest difficulty Path of the dammed was to easy after hitting about level 10 or 11.

 

I was hoping this patch would be a major patch that would overhaul alot of the very underwhelming class abilites. Paladins are borderline not playable due to alot of there abilities being bizarely implemented. The majority of subclasses have very underwhelming class specific powers and are simply best of ignored. To many class abilities, powers and magic items have an inherit "Consequence" or "Cost" that makes those abilities redundant and not worth using.

 

Path of the dammed should have been tuned from the Med-High Levels. Why have they just tuned half the game and ignored the rest?

 

It would be good if Obsidian could state there intentions here moving forward. At the moment its looking like I am going to have wait possibly 6-12 months before playing the game. 

[Hassat Hunter]

You realise it's 2.0 since DLC, right? RIGHT?

[dunehunter]

 

 

Sacred Immolation isn't that bad: if I use Voidward, cast Sacred Immolation and then put Greater Lay on Hands on me I barely lose 88 health after all (at lvl 20 - no special healing bonuses).

 

Singing Her Courage Thick as Steel also helps a lot. With Brisk Recitation it will take away 10 damage of each pulse away. Then my paladin only loses 47 health.

 

With Courage, Physiker's Belt and Practiced Healer I lose 30 health overall.

 

Other damage reductions that mention "incoming weapon damage" (like on Nerian's Ward) don't work against the self damage. Maybe others that don't use that restriction work?

If my character wanna suicide, he has better way than suicide immolation.

Erm... Well the whole point was that it's far from suicide. And even if it was (which it isn't): There are also few abilities that deal a substantial amount of AoE dmg while committing suicide - so which way would be the better way for you?

 

Few people complain about Berserker's self damage at PL 7 - although it's very high at that point. And he doesn't even have a powerful healing ability to counter that like the paladin has.

Because nobody tells them. It's obscured. But they see 43 raw damage per tick on SA and go all "wooot? Nooo way!".

Maybe you can quote one ability that does same amount of damage to self as suicide immolation? With high might and sworn enemy(which is bugged it applies on SA) you will do around 50 raw damage per tick to yourself. Yeah you can try heal your hp up, but I just wanna ask, does it worth doing so? The point of combat is reduce enemy hp to 0 while keep alive, and this ability which doesn't do a lot damage, counter the point of keep character alive.

Edited July 28, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

One single usage of Lay on Hands makes it easy to survive SA as I wrote above. Of course it's worth it if you build around that. I think for a highly defensive tank who doesn't lose a lot of health anyway it's a great addition to their usefulness in battle. And if you are surrounded by 5 enemies it does obviously a lot more damage than it takes - especially if it crits and you cast Inspired Beacon first.

 

It's not a no-brainer like it was in PoE - but it's hyperbole to call it "useless" or "Suicide Immolation" - as if it's unavoidable to kill yourself when using it. It is actually fairly easy to use it (with an additional healing ability) and suffer nearly no (or a very small) net health loss. With Exhalted Endurance on top you don't even experience net health loss. And it's also PL7 which means you can combine it with other classes' heals like from Livegiver or even Barring Death's Door.

 

I agree that the self damage could be a bit less - it's impressively high. But it doesn't make the ability useless or bugged. It was way too good in PoE.  

[Teclis23]

One single usage of Lay on Hands makes it easy to survive SA as I wrote above. Of course it's worth it if you build around that. I think for a highly defensive tank who doesn't lose a lot of health anyway it's a great addition to their usefulness in battle. And if you are surrounded by 5 enemies it does obviously a lot more damage than it takes - especially if it crits and you cast Inspired Beacon first.

 

It's not a no-brainer like it was in PoE - but it's hyperbole to call it "useless" or "Suicide Immolation" - as if it's unavoidable to kill yourself when using it. It is actually fairly easy to use it (with an additional healing ability) and suffer nearly no (or a very small) net health loss. With Exhalted Endurance on top you don't even experience net health loss. And it's also PL7 which means you can combine it with other classes' heals like from Livegiver or even Barring Death's Door.

 

I agree that the self damage could be a bit less - it's impressively high. But it doesn't make the ability useless or bugged. It was way too good in PoE.  

So if you have to use lay on hands to survive it what is the point in using it? Lay on hands costs Zeal, time to cast and you could also b attacking instead if using Lay on hands. 

 

Self immolation has been badly implemented

 

I 

[theBalthazar]

Don't forget. You are a PGM Boeroer.

 

You know all the solutions to compensate.

 

But in fact, 80 % of the players will play without that, and never pick this talent.  (we have to imagine all the solutions, and everyone does not think about it and will estimate "not worth it")

 

And basically, an ability should not be created with mandatory compensation. An ability must be self sufficient.

 

The self damage is far too much. 

 

To me, a fixed amount (60 % of your life on 10s overtime for example) would be better, because if not, it is :

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

That is correct. That's why I wrote that the damage should be lower.

 

Still not as bad as some people make it look like.

[Kaylon]

You can of course survive Stupid Immolation alone, that doesn't change the fact it's a worthless ability.   The real questions are:

- it's worth using some useless items and spending almost all your resources (at least 5-6 zeal for SI+LoH) for this crap?

- can you survive the stupid damage from SI and from the enemies at the same time?

[omgFIREBALLS]

And basically, an ability should not be created with mandatory compensation. An ability must be self sufficient.

This is exactly how cool synergy does not happen.

 

I play SA on a tank in a group with lots of healing going around. Usually I don't need to heal him but if it's a nasty fight, one LoH will be more than enough. My gripe with the ability is rather the 4 zeal cost. Would not use if I didn't have access to Brilliant.

[Boeroer]

- it's worth using some [...] items and spending [...] at least 5-6 zeal for SI+LoH[...]?

- can you survive the [...] damage from SI and from the enemies at the same time?

 

Yes

Edited July 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

 

- it's worth using some [...] items and spending [...] at least 5-6 zeal for SI+LoH[...]?

- can you survive the [...] damage from SI and from the enemies at the same time?

 

Yes

 

 

If you can already survive from enemies, the point of SA is just kill enemies faster, or kill yourself when u normally cannot die...

[Boeroer]

Or to damage enemies as a full tank which can contribute to the party. This is not a solo game and thus not every ability has to be viable for solo.

[gkathellar]

 

- it's worth using some [...] items and spending [...] at least 5-6 zeal for SI+LoH[...]?

- can you survive the [...] damage from SI and from the enemies at the same time?

 

Yes

 

 

But how am I supposed to spam Flames of Devotion if I use up all my zeal doing things other than spamming Flames of Devotion?

[Verde]

It's a shame but Obsidian really handed this game badly.

 

They did a complete 180 from the first game, released an open world game with so many bugs you were punished for exploring. And some bugs so egregious you have to wonder if they even played the game ONCE - like the final boss not showing up?

 

The focus has been on all the wrong things. The VOs. The Gods bickering. The Faction quests (which will take a year to completely polish). Eothos is very interesting yet we get a few missions and minimal influence.

 

Overall I really enjoy the game but that doesn't change it's shallowness.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Verde

[juanval]

the good part is that players can create mods.

 

I hope to see released a good balance mod that makes combats interesting.

 

Except difficulty balance, I love all features in PoE 2.

[Purudaya]

the good part is that players can create mods.

 

I hope to see released a good balance mod that makes combats interesting.

 

Except difficulty balance, I love all features in PoE 2.

 

Right, but it shouldn't be up to players to ensure that combat is interesting and the mechanics are well-balanced. If these patch notes are any indication, it seems like they got 75% of the way there with 1.1/1.2 and then just... gave up? Or decided that the game was good enough that they could put the rest of the difficulty and class balancing on the back burner until the new content was out.

 

I mean, I appreciate the bug squashing. But if the devs think the base game is fully done, they ought to spend some more time engaging with users on the forums. 

[Manveru123]

 

I mean, I appreciate the bug squashing. But if the devs think the base game is fully done, they ought to spend some more time engaging with users on the forums. 

 

And then what. Those users will pay for additional development time until they're all satisfied (which is never)? How many single player games do you play that get monthly balance patches? This game already got more changes from release than other RPG games get over their whole post-game development period. What more do you want to get for free.

 

I'm glad the devs are finally doing what they should be doing (which is fixing bugs) instead of trying to cater to the vocal, entitled minority, who is only this way because they got spoiled by the first POE constant patching. <shots fired>

Edited July 28, 2018 by Manveru123

[Verde]

 

the good part is that players can create mods.

 

I hope to see released a good balance mod that makes combats interesting.

 

Except difficulty balance, I love all features in PoE 2.

Right, but it shouldn't be up to players to ensure that combat is interesting and the mechanics are well-balanced. If these patch notes are any indication, it seems like they got 75% of the way there with 1.1/1.2 and then just... gave up? Or decided that the game was good enough that they could put the rest of the difficulty and class balancing on the back burner until the new content was out.

 

I mean, I appreciate the bug squashing. But if the devs think the base game is fully done, they ought to spend some more time engaging with users on the forums.

Or just play through the game once or twice?

[grasida]

And then what. Those users will pay for additional development time until they're all satisfied (which is never)? How many single player games do you play that get monthly balance patches? This game already got more changes from release than other RPG games get over their whole post-game development period. What more do you want to get for free.

 

 

I'm glad the devs are finally doing what they should be doing (which is fixing bugs) instead of trying to cater to the vocal, entitled minority, who is only this way because they got spoiled by the first POE constant patching. <shots fired>

 

 

A lot of single player games get frequent support and balance changes. Even if a game is single player, or has no competitive play in the game itself, a lot of players like to engage with the community online by posting creative builds and pointing out interesting synergies. That's a lot of what makes games like that interesting. I'd list Grim Dawn as a prime example of that. Although the game has multiplayer, it's not balanced for it at all. The balance is completely directed at single player and it gets frequent balance changes. Many rogue-like rpgs also see frequent balance changes. That keeps the core community engaged with the game and stokes constant buzz about it on social media.

 

And balance changes don't only mean nerfs or removing existing play styles. Or were you upset that ranger pets were buffed? At this point with Deadfire, I think buffs for uninteresting or under-performing abilities are more important than nerfs, even if I do believe some nerfs are still needed. If I had complete control over deadfire's patches with no restrictions on freedom or resources, my goal in the next patch would be to buff things players don't seem to like.

 

-Early level priest spells and many priest buffs are a frequent target of complaint, and I'd try to spice them up. I think priests of Eothas are boring and weaker than other priests, and I'd like to see a more unique and interesting spell list for them.

 

-Ciphers are now in a good place (as a result of balance changes, I might add) but there are still a number of weak cipher powers that could stand to be much more interesting or powerful, like wild leech, fractured volition and haunting chains .

 

-Rogues are pretty good now (again, as a result of changes coming from balance patches), but a number of their abilities have issues. Coordinated positioning is very difficult to find a use for. Sap is extremely situational. The smoke bomb line isn't very popular. Shadow step is often rated as weak or very situational. Enervating strike is highly overpriced, etc. All of those could be changed to make rogues more fun to play with a balance patch.

 

-A lot of fighter abilities are really overpriced, like inspired discipline, power strike and, in my opinion, into the fray. Reducing the cost on those abilities to make them competitive with other uses of discipline would make the fighter more fun to play.

 

-Paladin inspirations are very rarely considered useful. I would be hard pressed to think of a reason to take any of them. Sacred immolation is a frequent target of complaints. There doesn't seem to be much reason in general to take a single-class paladin over a multiclass, though I admit some of the high-tier powers like healing chain might be incredible. All of that could be fixed with well designed buffs to the relevant skills.

 

Do you really mean to say you don't want Obsidian to change any of that? You'd rather just have a bunch of crap abilities in the game that nobody is ever going to choose? You'd rather ciphers suck and rogues to be strictly weaker than fighters? Why? I'd much rather have more balance patches that make weak abilities worth considering.

[Manveru123]

 

Do you really mean to say you don't want Obsidian to change any of that? You'd rather just have a bunch of crap abilities in the game that nobody is ever going to choose? You'd rather ciphers suck and rogues to be strictly weaker than fighters? Why? I'd much rather have more balance patches that make weak abilities worth considering.

 

It is not possible to make every ability viable, if you have so many of them. That's just how it is. Sure I'd love buffs, but this is Obsidian we're talking about here. For each buff they do, they nerf 10 more things. This is their modus operandi. Always was. I bet my ass that changing Paladin inspiration would also involve nerfing half of their passives and FoD, for example.

 

Grim Dawn is more like Diablo or Path of Exile than Pillars, I find it hard to compare the two. I don't touch games like these so I can't talk about that. I'd rather compare with Dragon Age Origins, DOS, Baldur's Gate.. you know, games that are actually cRPG like Pillars are.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Manveru123

[grasida]

D:OS 1 got an enhanced addition that completely shook up the balance of the game and D:OS 2 is slated to get the same. BG games were from an earlier time, before steam or GoG when frequent patching wasn't feasible. I didn't make it through dragon age origins and only tried it many years after it was released, so I don't know about that one.

 

At any rate, your complaint here seems more targeted at the nature of Obsidian's balance patches than the existence of balance patches at all. You don't like nerfs and you like buffs. That's fine, I understand some people just want to land on a really strong build and smash the game. One of my best friends still likes early Final Fantasy games best because he doesn't want to think about which skills to pick, he just wants to find the best way to smash the game to pieces as quickly as possible.

 

But I believe that by the final version PoE 2, as long as Obsidian remains committed to balance, players will be able to have more fun playing the game than at the time it was released, because the great majority of skills will be worth using. That's never been possible in any complex game ever released without the aid of balance patches.

[heldred]

Some people believe the frequent posters on these boards are “entitled” or “elite,” but the reality is devs don’t have the time (or interest) to play 300 hours of POE2 at this point in the release cycle. However, you have numerous dedicated and rational players that are seeking to make the game more enjoyable.

 

With that said. I’m perplexed by the devs’ choice to skip the balancing issues this patch, especially with the expansion content coming. My biggest concern with the game is the number of useless skills, abilities, and spells. To clarify, “useless” is defined as one or more of the following issues inherent in a skill/spell:

1) cast/activation time is too long for the power output

2) resource cost too high for the power output

3) duration being too low, regardless of time/resource

4) power output (damage, healing, debuffs, buffs, etc.) being too low, regardless of time/resource

 

I believe the majority of spells/skills can be fixed by simply tweaking activation costs or cast times (#1 and #2 above). This might be the easiest and most expedient fix. If a power is substandard, moving the cast time down or cutting resource costs are equally efficient for balance. If spell and ability useage is/was tracked, you could let the data from veterans players answer this question (Which spells/skills are rarely used?) This isn’t a great fix, but it would go a long way if done correctly.

 

Think about the time it takes a dev to design and animate a skill/spell from cast animation to output/effect. An investment of time was made and all existing skills/spells should be made an asset (or for the inexperienced player, don’t make it a liability if selected).

 

In summary, why offer a skill or ability if it offers little benefit relative to time or resource cost? I was hoping this would be addressed pre-expansion, but now we must either ignore the expansion or simply play with the understanding that some classes still have 50% useless skills/spells. Yes mods help, but mods shouldn’t be the answer to questions successful games rarely ponder.

 

The game is good, but it could be great with some much needed balancing fixes.

Edited July 29, 2018 by heldred

[Manveru123]

D:OS 1 got an enhanced addition that completely shook up the balance of the game and D:OS 2 is slated to get the same. BG games were from an earlier time, before steam or GoG when frequent patching wasn't feasible. I didn't make it through dragon age origins and only tried it many years after it was released, so I don't know about that one.

 

DOS1 enhanced edition was released 1,5 years after the game itself. DOS2:EE is coming soon, so.. a year. Both are released as stand-alone games, not a forced update - sure, you get them for free, but they are a completey different game in your Steam library. While Pillars completely rebalanced its core game in the first effing patch! Saying that the difference is humongous would be an understatement.

[mant2si]

 

And then what. Those users will pay for additional development time until they're all satisfied (which is never)? How many single player games do you play that get monthly balance patches? This game already got more changes from release than other RPG games get over their whole post-game development period. What more do you want to get for free.

 

 

I'm glad the devs are finally doing what they should be doing (which is fixing bugs) instead of trying to cater to the vocal, entitled minority, who is only this way because they got spoiled by the first POE constant patching. <shots fired>

 

 

A lot of single player games get frequent support and balance changes. Even if a game is single player, or has no competitive play in the game itself, a lot of players like to engage with the community online by posting creative builds and pointing out interesting synergies. That's a lot of what makes games like that interesting. I'd list Grim Dawn as a prime example of that. Although the game has multiplayer, it's not balanced for it at all. The balance is completely directed at single player and it gets frequent balance changes. Many rogue-like rpgs also see frequent balance changes. That keeps the core community engaged with the game and stokes constant buzz about it on social media.

 

...

I agreed with you  on 100%

 

Holy s** Grim Dawn the best fun/balance single player rogue like game. Even Path of Exile or Diablo 3 can't boast of this :D May be, Median XL has same balance/fun as Grim Dawn

 

 

 

Do you really mean to say you don't want Obsidian to change any of that? You'd rather just have a bunch of crap abilities in the game that nobody is ever going to choose? You'd rather ciphers suck and rogues to be strictly weaker than fighters? Why? I'd much rather have more balance patches that make weak abilities worth considering.

 

It is not possible to make every ability viable, if you have so many of them. That's just how it is. Sure I'd love buffs, but this is Obsidian we're talking about here. For each buff they do, they nerf 10 more things. This is their modus operandi. Always was. I bet my ass that changing Paladin inspiration would also involve nerfing half of their passives and FoD, for example.

 

Grim Dawn is more like Diablo or Path of Exile than Pillars, I find it hard to compare the two. I don't touch games like these so I can't talk about that. I'd rather compare with Dragon Age Origins, DOS, Baldur's Gate.. you know, games that are actually cRPG like Pillars are.

 

I think OP talk about how they balance game and not compare games itself. They picked 5 - 10 guys from community who played a lot something like 500+ hours and give them beta branch, take their feedback and only then release game changes

 

For example in last patch the fixed problem (the same as stacked deflection 201+ for PoE II), but give buff for 2H builds 

Edited July 29, 2018 by mant2si