Josh:"The Watcher don't have particular reason to fight Eothas."

[Guest]

 

 

you either agree to seek Eothas or you'll die. And this doesn't motivate me to go find Eothas all that much. It motivates me to try to free myself from Berath's influence - and that's impossible.

If the threat of certain death doesn’t motivate you, then I don’t know what the writers could have possibly done to please you. Invent a threatened love interest out of whole cloth? Tell you that you bore offspring in the 5 year gap and then use that to get you going?

 

At some point, I think it’s fair to expect us, the players, to engage.

You misunderstood. It does motivate me - it's just that the target of my motivation is different from what the writers intended. I guess I simply don't enjoy being blatantly ordered around under the threat of death. It's the Atlas scenario from Bioshock.

I don’t think anyone does. But neither do I think anyone enjoys slowly going insane, and yet that was still the motivation for Pillars 1. If the story was poorly told, then that’s one critique. If the story didn’t spend enough time talking about puppies and this upsets me because I really like puppies, then that’s something else.

 

But still - points have been made - agree to disagree?

Sure. Last word is yours.

[Gromnir]

am gonna suggest josh uses (or distances deadfire from) monomyth... odd. most heroic stories have elements common to monomyth, and deadfire is hardly exempt. heck, typical heroic stories only have the protagonist symbolic crossing water.  am thinking is not difficult to see monomyth elements in deadfire and in point o' fact, the monomyth doesn't demand a specific final confrontation with the UBG (i.e. the Ultimate Bad Guy.) ubg confrontation is an understandable game trapping, but not monomyth. monomyth doesn't require deadfire protag to fight eothas anymore than it requires odysseus to do battle with poseidon.   sure, in a game which is built 'round increasing the combat efficacy o' a character or party, it is reasonable for the player to expect the final confrontation will make combat possible.  not monomyth but rather common sense is at work when players is expecting a possible final battle in a combat driven game.

 

*shrug*

 

am only getting snippets o' josh responses to a discussion held remote from this place.  as such it is all too easy to cherry pick those lines from josh responses to suit whatever conclusion we might wish to find.  regardless, am always disappointed when we see folks, not necessarily josh, identify the monomyth framework as a kinda straight jacket.  does deadfire have common monomyth elements? yes.  does deadfire arguable have common general monomyth progression?  josh not seem to think so, but am suspecting more than a few folks would disagree. in any event, being able to see common and divergent elements is useful when crafting a narrative. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[theBalthazar]

You are the Watcher, not a local farmer...

 

A perfect way to stay congruous : help of an other god.

 

Epic battle (not mandatory but = possibly final boss)

Edited July 25, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Tick]

That epic, ultra powerful character stuff doesn't really fit with the game. And I can't see the Pillars team having a direct God to God clash, especially without some near world ending consequences.

 

The gods already discussed stopping Eothas that way and changed their minds, and by the time they could un change their minds it was way too late.

[eschu101]

I really like his idea about Eothas and the ending and narrative, i felt sympathetic towards Eothas the whole game and never expected to fight a giant adra statue. I never intended stopping him from destroying the wheel, but my relationship with the other gods felt kinda weird near the end, i couldnt figure out if they just accepted defeat and wanted kith to help them survive or they just changed their mind. 

Again, i never expected a fight at the end...yet it felt very anti-climatic, maybe rushed, because Ukaizo felt empty (Ashen Maw and Poko Kahara were stunning, i expected nothing less) and then the credits just started to roll in. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by eschu101

[Tick]

I would say it wasn't perfectly executed yeah, but it was still good, and the problem wasn't that an epic fight was missing or that Eothas is stubborn /resolute.

[Guest]

I think the fact thaf the “boss fight” happens right when you arrive (and isn’t vs the antagonist) really throws people. Tyranny did something kinda similar and people rail against its ending also.

[handsomenat]

I expected a longer conversation. Maybe some verbal sparring, like with Ondra in White March. Also I would prefer if the Wheel-smashing business was explained a little better so I know why should I stop Eothas in the first place, like what exactly is going to happen, because for a while I had a hard time understanding difference between breaking the Wheel and destroying it altogether and which one of those Eothas wants to do. Other than that, I didn't expect an epic tale of the Watcher becoming a superhero so I don't really have a problem with that. I would prefer it though if the story felt a little more personal, with more weird stuff that only a Watcher can experience. There were elements here and there but I'd prefer more.

[algroth]

I really like his idea about Eothas and the ending and narrative, i felt sympathetic towards Eothas the whole game and never expected to fight a giant adra statue. I never intended stopping him from destroying the wheel, but my relationship with the others felt kinda weird near the end, i couldnt figure out if they just accepted defeat and wanted kith to help them survive or they just changed their mind. 

 

Again, i never expected a fight at the end...yet it felt very anti-climatic, maybe rushed, because Ukaizo felt empty (Ashen Maw and Poko Kahara were stunning, i expected nothing less) and then the credits just started to roll in. 

 

My one disappointment with regards to the ending is that we couldn't see more of Ukaizo. It felt especially weird considering how so many other quests and questlines deliberately build on the mystery and 'reveal' of the place. All to, what, get a view of the city from afar as part of an out-of-focus parallax view? Beyond that, it is as it's been said here already: never expected to fight Eothas, found the ending rather satisfying myself.

[mungomunk]

I think the fact thaf the “boss fight” happens right when you arrive (and isn’t vs the antagonist) really throws people. Tyranny did something kinda similar and people rail against its ending also.

Not to mention that the mech-dragon doesn'teven  neccessarily show up.

[Guest]

 

I think the fact thaf the “boss fight” happens right when you arrive (and isn’t vs the antagonist) really throws people. Tyranny did something kinda similar and people rail against its ending also.

Not to mention that the mech-dragon doesn'teven neccessarily show up.

Bugs notwithstanding, I think people balk a little when they are expecting something conventional and get something different. What’s funny to me is that when Chris Avellone does it, he’s a rockstar but when anyone else does it, the grognards flip out.

[Heijoushin]

Now here's an interesting thread.

 

Josh states the watchers goals are:

1. To find out what Eothas is doing.

2. Influence him.

Now, I definitely wasn't expecting to fight Eothas. I realized that wasn't practical (This isn't a JRPG). But at no point in time did I feel like we were capable of convincing him to stop either. I mean, who is the Watcher that Eothas should listen to him? The other gods sure as hell don't take our advice seriously. And Eothas has clearly put some serious plans into motion. It doesn't feel like something you can stop with a few good dialogue choices and a charisma check.

So, yeah, what do you do when you catch the god you're hunting? "lol, nothing."

 

(Of course, on a personal level, I feel bad for Josh. No creator wants to find out his story wasn't well received.)

Edited July 25, 2018 by Heijoushin

[Guest]

Now here's an interesting thread.

 

Josh states the watchers goals are:

1. To find out what Eothas is doing.

2. Influence him.

 

Now, I definitely wasn't expecting to fight Eothas. I realized that wasn't practical (This isn't a JRPG). But at no point in time did I feel like we were capable of convincing him to stop either. I mean, who is the Watcher that Eothas should listen to him? The other gods sure as hell don't take our advice seriously. And Eothas has clearly put some serious plans into motion. It doesn't feel like something you can stop with a few good dialogue choices and a charisma check.

So, yeah, what do you do when you catch the god you're hunting? "lol, nothing."

 

(Of course, on a personal level, I feel bad for Josh. No creator wants to find out his story wasn't well received.)

Arguably, The White March set a precedent for this. Those who didn’t play obviously won’t be used to arguing gods out of their original positions.

[DozingDragon]

 

I really like his idea about Eothas and the ending and narrative, i felt sympathetic towards Eothas the whole game and never expected to fight a giant adra statue. I never intended stopping him from destroying the wheel, but my relationship with the others felt kinda weird near the end, i couldnt figure out if they just accepted defeat and wanted kith to help them survive or they just changed their mind. 

 

Again, i never expected a fight at the end...yet it felt very anti-climatic, maybe rushed, because Ukaizo felt empty (Ashen Maw and Poko Kahara were stunning, i expected nothing less) and then the credits just started to roll in. 

 

My one disappointment with regards to the ending is that we couldn't see more of Ukaizo. It felt especially weird considering how so many other quests and questlines deliberately build on the mystery and 'reveal' of the place. All to, what, get a view of the city from afar as part of an out-of-focus parallax view? Beyond that, it is as it's been said here already: never expected to fight Eothas, found the ending rather satisfying myself.

 

 

Right on.  The ending sequence was very brief compared to the rest of the game.  I get that the whole scripted interaction of actually traveling to Ukaizo was part of the endgame design, but Ukaizo felt smaller than Sun in Shadow.  I wasn't expecting a fight with Eothas, but I hoped that we would have a scripted interaction in Ukaizo that was of the same caliber as the finale to the White March Part II.  

Edited July 25, 2018 by DozingDragon

[Vitalis]

That epic, ultra powerful character stuff doesn't really fit with the game. And I can't see the Pillars team having a direct God to God clash, especially without some near world ending consequences.

 

The gods already discussed stopping Eothas that way and changed their minds, and by the time they could un change their minds it was way too late.

I've always seen the PoE gods as analogous to the Greek Gods, they Express the worst aspects of humanity paired with their respective domains. This is best shown in the endings for PoE if you pledge to help a God, but then renege on it.

 

In Greek myths, the figures are generally related to the gods in some way. For example, Hercules and Perseus were demigods who achieved their feats with the favor/disfavor of the Gods. Even Kratos in God of War turned out to be the son of Zeus, that gained the use of numerous weapons/powers that were granted by the Gods, which he then used to brutally massacre everyone he even glanced at.

 

The Watcher is not a demigod, s/he/it may be more powerful than most Kith, but there is absolutely no way that the Watcher would be able to physically defeat a God. Even Rauatai, with their love of things that go boom, would never be able to defeat a God. Sadly, we never get to see them try and fail.

 

For the White March, I felt that the argument with Ondra was only won when you mention that the Eyeless would have to massacre the entirety of the Dyrwood, Readceras, or everyone that even heard of the Battery. Ondra aquiesing was more about the response to her genocide, than actually being convinced she was wrong.

[Siegdarth]

As a fan of cosmic horror, I do agree on how stupid it is to defy a colossus avatar of a god. However, the narrative could present the second coming of Eothas, much like a second Saint War, and put the factions into a power struggle arround the discovering of Ukaizo. So you could have 4 factions and a unstopable force.
I would also cut Hasongo entirely or make it a side quest, nagas attacked a port and the RDC sent the player to help. Poko Kahara is more well structured and important Storywise  than a pillar used as a lighthouse. The destruction or redemption of Eothas would be half of the game. After that some of the old  locations would be used in new quests, linking how the player has solved the previous quests, in a open war involving the factions for the control of the Deadfire and Ukaizo. In the end the destiny of the Wheel would be decided directly by the player.

I think they did the Broken Wheel as mandatory to allow an easy canon storyline for the third game. I belive it will be a classic take on CRPGs.  You will be able to interact and probably kill or uplift one or more gods. 

[Heijoushin]

I personally think that the Waidwen/Saint War plot would have made for a much better game. You still get a mysterious god doing mysterious things to influence the world of mortals. You can still have Margan and the others pulling strings in the background. However, with Eothas in human form, he's potentially fightable as a final boss. There's also an army of followers that you can have battles again. Perfect, no?

[Farsha]

I'm ok with his explanation, but he's also right that delivery could have been bit better. Maybe it's that cut eothas dialogue content that was admitted in different post, who knows.

Game is still great. From gameplay perspective it's most enjoayble cRPG you can play (when you ignore ship combat minigame and just board). And unsual ending is easily balanced out by great factions questlines.

If DLCs will be good and expand the world bit more, this game can easily be the best cRPG released so far (definitelly the most polished one)

[gkathellar]

I understand Josh's position, and even agree with a good part of it, but I feel like dismissing his critics on the grounds that they were really just expecting a monomyth story and it's not his fault their expectations are all wrong is uh ... fat-headed? Haters gonna have some good points.
 

Seems to me that some players wanted Eothas to be like Sarevok, Irenicus, or Amelyssan from the BG series, but he was actually the Lady of Pain from Planescape instead.

 
Well, no, for two reasons (and I swear, I'll bring this back to Eothas).
 
First: the Lady of Pain is not a character. The Lady of Pain is intended to be something more like gravity, or electromagnetism, and the fact that she has a face still worked against the Planescape's writers constantly and was something they had to constantly push back against (largely successfully, of course, but it still doesn't stop every third dummy from asking, "what if I beat up the lady of pain?"). She doesn't talk. She doesn't pay attention to anything or anyone in particular. Anyone who considers Her Serenity an enemy is either posturing or getting ready to jump off of a figurative cliff (Aoskar, I'm looking at you), not because she's got the biggest guns but because doing so is behavior analogous to an engineer who refuses to account for conservation of angular momentum on account of his political opposition to it.
 
Second: the Lady of Pain is virtually never the driving force of a story. She's not an antagonist, or a protagonist. Her Serenity not a force for law or chaos, good or evil, or even really neutrality in the Planes, so much as she is a necessary conceit for Sigil, and by extension the entire setting, to function. She passes by, she looks mysterious, and if someone is really stupid they occasionally walk into the ocean that is Her Serenity and drown, but they are still pretty much entirely the architect of their own story. Even in Die, Vecna, Die!, her lone stint as a quest-giver, her reaction is mostly one of an immune system gauging its (inevitably successful) response, and the plot is actually driven by Godsmen being stupid and a lich getting too big for his britches.
 
Eothas, on the other hand, is a character. He talks, he thinks, he has ambitions, ideas, motives, and standards. He moves the plot in general, not through passive presence but through intentional action, and a huge cross-section of what's happening on the sidelines is at least partially driven by his presence. The PC is specifically pursuing him, and has several brief exchanges with him even before the final confrontation. That doesn't mean you should be able to punch Eothas in the nose, but because he's for most intents and purposes a person, it's not unreasonable to reflexively assume that you will have the opportunity to respond to him as a person. Better communication with the player could have solved this problem. It's all well and good that Josh has an artistic vision, but I feel the game does a pretty mediocre job of getting across that you can't and shouldn't expect to fight or even meaningfully oppose the Shining God, and that you are present solely in an investigative capacity.
 
A big part of successful storytelling is about managing audience expectations, and for better or worse, managing audience expectations as they relate to the aesthetic, formal, and thematic layers of the genre the story is placed in - a challenge which I think is even greater for games, because they have additional mechanical and presentational layers of genre to contend with. That's really difficult to do, and I have all the respect in the world for efforts to do so in a creative or interesting fashion, but artists don't get an exemption from critique, or even criticism, just because they tried real hard to do something clever (not even if they succeeded, really). If players arrived at the final conflict with Eothas expecting a big fight because that's what the game had given them some reason to expect, and Deadfire both failed to deliver on their expectations and failed to disabuse them of their expectations in a way that satisfied them, that's a problem with Deadfire.
 
tl;dr I have concerns about saying peoples' complaints are a result of their wrong expectations and not how the game managed their expectations, as execution is everything.
 

 

 

Beacuse what we ended up with is a suprisingly Alan Moore story: we have a protagonist with no drive, agency and little motivation or even a good reason to be in the Archipelago in the first place, that's constantly at the mercy of flawed, powerful beings that we know are in the wrong. And we have no say in any of this - we can just meekly watch as they potentially blow up Eora for "our good". Eothas entire argument is something along the lines of "I saved you, no reason to thank me. Now figure out for yourselves how not to die horribly in result. Peace out". The point that I made an Archipelago a slightly better place is moot, when the whole world might die out anyway.

Well Eothas does have a chunk of your soul that you're wanting back so as not to die, so there's a measure of motivation stemming from that.

 

Not to mention Berath who stuck a kill switch in your chest and tells you not to make her use it. That’s kinda sorta motivating also. Or, for those of us who play nice guys, there’s all the death and destruction to stop. But other than those three things, there’s no agency, drive, or motivation at all.

 

 

I think what this fails to address is the ways that audience motivation, which is extrinsic to a narrative, is not necessarily identical to character motivation, which is intrinsic to the narrative. I'm going to get almost tautological for a moment, and point out life-or-death situations are compelling in real life because they're mandatory - if you could just leave, they wouldn't be life-or-death situations. The prospect and fear of death is a great intrinsic motive for a character, but since the audience member can put down the book, quit the game, or turn off the film at any time, their investment in the character's intrinsic motives needs to be earned. Deadfire doesn't neglect to do that, but I could definitely see how its efforts would not be strong enough for a lot of people.

Edited July 26, 2018 by gkathellar

[Gromnir]

"we expect the campbellian rpg progression-- meet god, challenge god, become god. it's in everything from deus ex to , y'know, baldur's gate."

 

am thinking where josh initial went wrong, particular for folks in this thread, is he allowed a poster to summon the spectre o' campbell in spite o' fact such were wholly inappropriate. invoking campbell to lend credence to observations 'bout typical rpg progressions were specious and yet josh went along with the initial proposition. campbell monomyth sure don't require confrontations with gods wherein the hero is eventual supplanting the adversary deity-- quite the opposite.  typical monomyth examples utilized by campbell involving the protagonist confronting a deity as often as not end with the hero suitably humbled while embracing newfound piety.  also, as previous stated, monomyth ain't a rigid organizational system with seventeen (or twelve) essential elements which must be actualized in a specific configuration for campbell observations to be meaningful... though am admitting we see it taught so at high school levels.  am mild horrified when kids is given the Odyssey or Beowulf and then instructed to identify the seventeen stages. regardless,  josh coulda'/shoulda' discussed criticism o' deadfire's failure to meet a player's expectation w/o all the campbell baggage. monomyth and campbell were, from start, a red herring and best approach woulda' been a blunt and brief dismissive aside.

 

as to perceived failure o' resolution o' deadfire…

 

our problems with the deadfire narrative were numerous, but none were individual fatal.  the resolution were one small aspect o' our criticism o' deadfire, and am certain changing the Final Conflict w/o making other changes woulda' had little impact on our overall enjoyment o' the game.  example: there were relative few essential plot encounters in deadfire, and many o' those were handled with heavy-handed exposition... 'course the need for exposition were increased because o' the small number o' encounters.  see what we mean?  am not liking the exposition, but can't fix without fundamental changing the deadfire story advancement. can't fix one aspect in isolation. deadfire resolution improve poses similar problems.

 

eothas were never meant to be the UBG (ultimate bad guy) as is typical in crpgs-- we get that.  again, is not a monomyth issue, but rather a crpg trapping to be having a UBG, and a UBG in a game which character development options is focused 'pon increasing combat efficacy better make a combat resolution possible or there will be failure to meet reasonable player expectations, regardless o' what writers do with the narrative.  deadfire, as with the ie games, is a story-driven, squad-based, tactical combat game with rpg elements. with twenty leveling opportunities to bolster squad combat powhaz and tens o' hours o' gameplay, much o' which is devoted to combat, one would assume the developers would recognize the need to make a combat resolution option worthy o' the player's time invested in the title.  don't need fight eothas to satisfy players, but one needs make a final combat encounter which is a culmination o' efforts which led up to finale.  

 

"so, that's it?"

 

is our reaction to the guardian encounter.  the final adversary is, from narrative perspective, minor. is little build-up o' the obstacle the guardian represents. anticipation is negligible. successful resolution is predictable anti-climactic given absence o' anticipation. 

 

ukaizo. not gonna belabor the point as others has already spoken to the issue, but ukaizo is wasted content.  unlike the guardian, there is anticipation and wonder surrounding ukaizo. is the city on the edge of forever... is eora's el dorado and atlantis, is shangri-la and avalon. nevertheless, our chance to interact with ukaizo is tragic limited.  

 

the final dialogue with eothas is problematic but representative o' the endemic deadfire narrative problems rather than something resolution specific.  the watcher is, as the title implies, a witness to eothas' efforts.  more exposition.  more slides.  the watcher must stand aside and watch as events unfold in a preordained manner.  is a game, but instead o' gameplay or even meaningful interaction we get overwrought narration while the single biggest question Gromnir has following our previous encounter with the gods (i.e. why exactly is breaking the wheel possible dooming eora?) is not even an option 'mongst the limited dialogue options we got with eothas.  final encounter with eothas is not terrible as game resolutions is tending to be, but in spite o' fact we had no assumption we would need fight eothas, we were nevertheless largely unsatisfied with the ultimate encounter o' deadfire.  final eothas encounter were ultimate resolution o' a game, and we get same exposition and impotence as every previous eothas encounter. 

 

got other thoughts, but is already a bit long-winded even for a Gromnir post. in any event, am certain there is no simple fix for the deadfire resolution and am equal convinced the campbell spectre should be exorcised from this thread as it were nothing more than a phantom from the very start.  

 

 

where is father merrin when you need him?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rheios]

Yeah, I never expected to fight Eothas on my first run. Well, until every other decision was just lying over and asking him to be nice in one of a few ways (i.e - the Fight and instantly die option was what I selected). My character *wanted* the wheel and the existing system. The wheel is Berath, or she is representative of its cycles, and as a cleric, a death godlike, and a herald of Berath he was more miffed, probably even than Berath, about Eothas's reasoning and attack on his deity. (And in fact I considered going a different way in the conversation until he does the whole 'I absolve you of your duty'. I know he meant the killswitch but my character didn't think he had the right to be the one to remove what his deity had put in him). It was a bad first character but that I actually lacked the option to straight up reiterate to Eothas I thought he was *still* a dumbass, and for him to blow me off again, at least was a bit frustrating. And so I went with what was effectively duty-driven suicide. I knew I was going to be howling at the night, for all intents and purposes, but I was hoping I could either convince him or have even clearer options to choose the howl.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Rheios

[Siegdarth]

I can say the overall felling i had while playing POE2 was the same i had in Fallout 3 and 4.  I must find my dad! I must save my son! However the world, quests and interactions are way more fun than chasing the god. On my last playthrough I did all main quest, up to Ukaizo, after that I did all the other quests. It was way more fun.
 

[Verde]

 

I think the fact thaf the “boss fight” happens right when you arrive (and isn’t vs the antagonist) really throws people. Tyranny did something kinda similar and people rail against its ending also.

Not to mention that the mech-dragon doesn'teven neccessarily show up.

Yeah wtf is that? Happened to me first playthrough.

[Palas]

Well , imo most people don't complain about they could not fight Eothas but that the watcher makes no difference.

 

In the end Eothas is destroying the wheel and his explanation, why this is a good thing is quite vague. In fact he says it is possible, that all souls get stuck in den beyond and kith are dying out. Maybe kith work together to prevent this, but maybe not.

 

yeah, you could make a suggestion to eothas, and he will honor it. But imo it just don't feel like a success.

[Guest]

Well , imo most people don't complain about they could not fight Eothas but that the watcher makes no difference.

 

In the end Eothas is destroying the wheel and his explanation, why this is a good thing is quite vague. In fact he says it is possible, that all souls get stuck in den beyond and kith are dying out. Maybe kith work together to prevent this, but maybe not.

 

yeah, you could make a suggestion to eothas, and he will honor it. But imo it just don't feel like a success.

At the end of the first game, we’ve met and interacted with two characters; one who believes that people basically suck and need gods to keep them in line. The other believes that people are basically alright and are capable of figuring out stuff on their own. One of these people has the backing of one or more gods. But what if there was a god that agreed with the other?

 

That’s Eothas. He agrees that kith can figure it out on their own. He tried nudging the conversation in that direction subtlety and got killed trying. No more subtlety. He’s going to do something drastic to force the conversation now and if kith, with their eyes open and not manipulated by Thaos, decide that the ancient Engwithans were correct, then so be it. Be he’s at least going to give them that chance.

 

I’m not sure I agree that this was “vague”.