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Pathfinder Kingmaker is bigger then Deadfire


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How do you measure commercial success besides profit generation?

For commercial purposes sure but that doesn't necessarily mean that Tetris, Minecraft, and GTA5 are objectively the best games of all times just that they are the best selling games.

 

Al2O3 was just pointing out the logical fallacy of Manveru123's argument that it's a better game because it sold better. That's not to say it isn't a better game just that it's not better simply because it sold more.

Edited by ShadySands
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Free games updated 3/6/19

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For commercial purposes sure but that doesn't necessarily mean that Tetris, Minecraft, and GTA5 are objectively the best games of all times just that they are the best selling games

But everything else is just feels. :shrugz:

 

Pretty much

Free games updated 3/6/19

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Part of the reason I’m upset about OS2 is I had such high hopes after Fort Joy. And I enjoyed part of act 2, but then the problems just got exponentially worse until for my own sanity I had to bail. So much potential ruined by rookie game design mistakes like doubling stats very darn level. Come on guys, how is that going to work in an rpg? And the writing fell apart. I am going to give the enhanced edition ago, but judging by the devs comments they haven’t picked up on the main issue regarding terrible attributes like wits, a bad initiative system which is fatal in a turn based system and the hideous stat inflation... so not to hopeful.

Deadfire, while I am disappointed in the story is frankly a much better game. The attributes, classes, general system work well, unlike OS2.

Unfortunately neither of them have a good story.

 

Ehh, it does seem like the developers of that game have noticed all of those issues and are planning to rectify those with DE, going off of interviews and press videos.

 

https://fextralife.com/divinity-original-sin-2-interview-armour-changes-mechanics-skills-types-and-more/

 

At least DE is free for those who already own the base game, so nobody loses anything from trying it out again then.

Edited by Saito Hikari
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For commercial purposes sure but that doesn't necessarily mean that Tetris, Minecraft, and GTA5 are objectively the best games of all times just that they are the best selling games

But everything else is just feels. :shrugz:
Some people buy games to be entertained. Some people buy games to own works of art.

 

Art is subjective.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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And unquantifiable.

So there no such thing as art?

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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LOL profit equals success.... ok I guess that makes Bieber and Swift the greatest musicians of all time... and the gent who canned his own poo the greatest artist of all time, Dan Brown and Rowling are clearly much better writers than Orwell and Hemingway....

I could go on, and on... but why bother really... when people completely disregard talent, skill in favor of good marketing...

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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LOL profit equals success.... ok I guess that makes Bieber and Swift the greatest musicians of all time... and the gent who canned his own poo the greatest artist of all time, Dan Brown and Rowling are clearly much better writers than Orwell and Hemingway....

I could go on, and on... but why bother really... when people completely disregard talent, skill in favor of good marketing...

Don't forget the Skyrim is the greatest RPG to be released, surpassing the **** stain that was BG2.

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I definitely had mixed emotions when I saw this thread. On the one hand, I'm really excited about Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I really hope that PoE fans also buy it. It doesn't seem to have nearly the PR program that Obsidian has going, so I'm worried lots of people who'd love it just won't hear about it. So I'm glad it is getting mentioned in these forums.

 

On the other hand, I was pretty bummed that it was no1fanboy (more accurately: no1troll) who posted it. You know that feeling when somebody takes your side in an argument, but it is the sort of person who actually undercuts your position by taking it, and you'd much rather they were on the other side? Allies you'd rather not have? Yeah.

 

That said, the game looks great. The Beta goes up through about half the game, and has gotten really good reviews from some people I trust who have played it. It also does take the other fork in some of the design decisions that have been controversial among hard-core Deadfire fans. (For example, it doubles down on the Vancian system by making resting a big deal, with a mini-game involving cooking, posting lookouts, and so on, and has a kind of overarching time limit associated with the kingdom building mechanics, which makes conserving resources across fights a much bigger deal.) So it might be a nice change of pace for those who care about such things.

 

And it has the advantage that the old D&D games had: an extensively playtested and already-balanced set of mechanics (Pathfinder, which is basically D&D 3.75), that they just have to adapt to the computer and real-time-with-pause combat. They seem to be erring on the side of faithfulness to the source material, which I really like. I loved the NWN 2 character mechanics (and the whole game, actually, except the camera), which this is very close to.

 

So spread the word! The studio making it has met every deadline ahead of time, underpromised and overdelivered, so I have come to think it is eminently worthy of our trust.

 

It has a release date! September 25, a mere year after its successful Kickstarter campaign, and less than 2 months away.

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I certainly hope it’s good, the more good games the better for everyone, only concern would be the narrative cause the idea that a game should come with a plot has kinda been thrown away recently. Hopefully Avellone is on top of that...

"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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Depends on how you measure success...

"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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But everything else is just feels. :shrugz:

 

 

That is not necessarily true. Critique done with the suppression of bias is more than just "feels". A completely objective review is not possible, but you can get close if you are knowledgeable about the genre and the art form. If you are aware of the standards that guide designers and you are aware of the goals they were trying to accomplish.

 

It's still an opinion in the end, but an opinion more valuable than most. Because rather than judging a piece based on it's intrinsic quality (which is impossible and subjective), you are judging a piece based on how effectively it achieved what it was trying to do (which is not).

 

You just need to be able to separate how you feel about something from how you analyze it.

 

To suggest that critique is always invalid because it is always and only based on feelings is not really true IMO. Like, are you going to say we cannot objectively say that asset flips are bad? Technically, they are games, which are an art form, does that automatically preclude us from making a quality assessment that they are easily, definitively worse than other games which had effort put into them? Because I wouldn't agree with that, I think there IS a great deal of value in critique, and I think it is essential to the growth and development of video games as an art form.

Edited by Novem
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LOL profit equals success.... ok I guess that makes Bieber and Swift the greatest musicians of all time... and the gent who canned his own poo the greatest artist of all time, Dan Brown and Rowling are clearly much better writers than Orwell and Hemingway....

I could go on, and on... but why bother really... when people completely disregard talent, skill in favor of good marketing...

Marketing has little to do with this. Is it so hard to understand that some people - many people actually - prefer Harry Potter to Animal Farm? And if that makes them a lesser person in your eyes, is that their problem, or yours? You are free to have an opinion, as is everyone else, but the moment you try to push your opinion as a fact, you just lose credibility in a discussion.

 

Success IS measured by money, because gaming industry is no different than any other business. Fun does not put food on the table (or a porsche in the garage), but big sales and smart microtransactions do. Look at EA. They treat their players like garbage. They've been voted the worst company in the US a few years in a row. How did it affect their profits? They keep getting bigger. And why? Because they don't need to have a heart to be good at their jobs.

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LOL profit equals success.... ok I guess that makes Bieber and Swift the greatest musicians of all time... and the gent who canned his own poo the greatest artist of all time, Dan Brown and Rowling are clearly much better writers than Orwell and Hemingway....

I could go on, and on... but why bother really... when people completely disregard talent, skill in favor of good marketing...

Marketing has little to do with this. Is it so hard to understand that some people - many people actually - prefer Harry Potter to Animal Farm? And if that makes them a lesser person in your eyes, is that their problem, or yours? You are free to have an opinion, as is everyone else, but the moment you try to push your opinion as a fact, you just lose credibility in a discussion.

 

Success IS measured by money, because gaming industry is no different than any other business. Fun does not put food on the table (or a porsche in the garage), but big sales and smart microtransactions do. Look at EA. They treat their players like garbage. They've been voted the worst company in the US a few years in a row. How did it affect their profits? They keep getting bigger. And why? Because they don't need to have a heart to be good at their jobs.

I think the gist of the argument is that one shouldn’t compare apples to oranges. There’s nothing wrong with someone enjoying Harry Potter. The problem comes when someone tries to argue that Harry Potter is literature or says that it is “better” than Animal Farm because it sold better.
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Animal Farm was written in 1945 and continues to sell and be a major part of the literature world, so the idea that it has somehow underperformed compared to the Da Vinci Code is ridiculous. 

 

But yeah, profit is the first indicator of success. Beiber and Taylor Swift may not end up being as timeless as Sinatra and Aretha, but they are still artists who have figured out how to succeed in the current market (Actually Taylor Swift is a phenomenal talent and it is insulting to put her in the same class as Beiber, who relies heavily on talented producers to succeed.)

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Animal Farm was written in 1945 and continues to sell and be a major part of the literature world, so the idea that it has somehow underperformed compared to the Da Vinci Code is ridiculous. 

 

But yeah, profit is the first indicator of success. Beiber and Taylor Swift may not end up being as timeless as Sinatra and Aretha, but they are still artists who have figured out how to succeed in the current market (Actually Taylor Swift is a phenomenal talent and it is insulting to put her in the same class as Beiber, who relies heavily on talented producers to succeed.)

There's a difference between someone who creates something as a means of self-expression (an artist) and someone who creates something so that people will consume it (a performer). Orwell wrote Animal Farm because he had something to say. Beiber makes music so that people will buy his albums.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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There's a difference between someone who creates something as a means of self-expression (an artist) and someone who creates something so that people will consume it (a performer). Orwell wrote Animal Farm because he had something to say. Beiber makes music so that people will buy his albums.

 

 

Your definition of performer is super wrong. I mean, not correct by any dictionary or commonly accepted standard of the word. A performer doesn't create anything. They perform. Orwell was an actor, director, writer, and producer. He was certainly a performer when he did the radio broadcast of War of the Worlds. He was a great artist, but the idea that he was just creating stuff for self-expression is unrealistic. He needed people to buy tickets as well.

 

Beiber could arguably be considered a performer instead of an artist. I do not know what his role is in the creation of his music. I know his producers are given a lot of credit for his success. But regardless, whoever is creating the music is still an artist, no matter how commercial their interests may be. Heck, Shakespeare's later plays go my and more violent because he found that was what sells. Any artist you have ever heard of is in it for more than self-expression. Otherwise why release anything?

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