[MECHANICS] Barbarian Carnage Testing

[UltimaLuminaire]

Why Test (Version 1.2.0.0028)

 

Mmmm, Carnage.

I've been a long time fan of Barbarian and have been seeking information on how the Carnage mechanic works in Deadfire since release. Unfortunately, things were slow both here and on Reddit with limited interest (people consider Carnage a worthless ability, especially in light of Mob Stance prior to its nerf) and poor accessibility (limited HUD tooltip info). The only question that really got answered was whether the secondary Carnage attacks applied on-hit effects, and the answer was a resounding, "No, but Spirit and Blood Frenzy on-hit effect buff does." That, and the fact that the resulting Raw damage does not care for Penetration, Graze, or Crit modifiers.

 

Fast forward to present day. With the help of the mod guide video kind of showing where to look, I've been able to look at the various status effect and attack object structures. So here's some general observations from what's been tucked away in the GameDataBundle files:

• Carnage damage does scale with Power Level. It's a meager +5% per PL, but it's better than nothing. Amusingly, since Carnage is itself PL 0, and you start at PL 1, you actually start with the bonus +5% to Carnage damage. Don't get excited, though, because this scaling value is applied after the 0.33 modifier.

• The 33% damage effect will check the weapon in your primary or off-hand as appropriate. It does not care about anything other than the weapon's Base Damage range. You don't get the accuracy bonus from weapon quality. There is a hidden PL accuracy bonus that can't be observed in the game's tooltips, as noted in the Power Level Compilation Thread.
• The AoE Carnage attacks (main and off-hand) that apply the 33% damage effect seem to use a static 0.33 value for damage that overrides the default ability damage scaling for effects (+10% per PL). This just means you can only rely on the +5% damage per PL after the 0.33 reduction.

Damage

So the question I had at this point was what influenced Base Weapon Damage? Does weapon quality factor at all? What about active abilities proc from passives, like One Stands Alone, or conditional passive bonuses like Wilder Hunter?

Thanks to a wonderful group of Assassin Vines, I've been able to get started on testing. Here are my observations thus far.
 

• Damage range for Carnage appears to use the following formula: (([base Weapon Damage] * [Might Damage Bonus]) * 0.33)(1 + (.05 * PL)).
  This was tested with a mod I made which increased the scaling damage bonus from PL so I could observe any small change to other values. Weapons used were of the same type, but different quality between them. Of course, quality had no effect on the damage result, and neither did One Stands Alone. I still have not tested sabre's Sharp weapon property or Wilder Hunter talent, though I suspect that Carnage damage will not check for creature type before applying itself. If anyone tests these before I do, that would be nice.
• Surprise! Might influences your Base Weapon Damage before it is shoved into Carnage's % damage calculation! This was tested by observing the damage range with and without Frenzy. Whether it's worth having high Might to maximize Carnage damage is another thing. Assuming you max it out, you're still looking at 10-15 Raw damage from 30 Might and 10 PL delivered via a Sword swing (Base 13-19).
• Finding the minimum and maximum damage possible is just a matter of using the minimum and maximum values under Base Weapon Damage range for the relevant weapon. For the most part, numbers stayed within the correct range, but was a little tricky to parse because damage values are not integers. Your damage range will include decimal values, but the hit point damage flying out of enemies on screen will round the value up.

Testing Error

In the GameDataBundle files, it appears that your off-hand weapon is ignored for base weapon damage and your main weapon is used instead. This isn't because they didn't put in an entry for your off-hand weapon. They did. It just doesn't get referenced at all, and thus the AoE attack and subsequent 33% damage status effect it would reference are also unused. It may be a mistake that the main weapon got referenced for both the main weapon on-hit event and the off-hand weapon on-hit event, or it could be a measure to prevent the game from breaking on something.

 

Area of Effect

As for Carnage AoE size, even with 21 Int, I struggled to hit more than 3 additional Assassin Vines at a time. Barbaric Blow's 50% increased Carnage AoE did not make a noticeable difference, though I guess that's fitting given the size of the base AoE (360 degrees; "Small"; 1.5 blast radius override). At the very least, if you get 3+ enemies clustered, Heart of Fury can apply a lot of extra damage via main and off-hand Carnage AoE.

 

Closing

There's nothing to really close this OP on. The goal wasn't to show whether Carnage was a viable mechanic or not but to clear up some of the mystery behind how it works. I'll leave some closing thoughts:

• Abilities like Barbaric Blow and Heart of Fury do not influence Carnage damage whatsoever. This, despite Barbaric Blow claiming it also increases the crit rate of Carnage. There's no benefit to doing so even if it worked that way. You ultimately use the abilities for the Full Attack abuse and maybe the increased Carnage AoE.
• For consistent, powerful basic attack applications, dual wielding wielding a spear, sword, or battle axe in your main hand will offer the best results (Base 13-19 damage).
• Might becomes slightly more relevant with big 2h weapons since it will modify a bigger value. Great sword, pike, and quarterstaff (Base 18-24 damage) will lead to a maximum Carnage damage range of 14-19 at 30 Might and 10 PL. From my testing, 2h Weapon talent doesn't modify Carnage damage and neither does the great sword modal.
• Two-weapon Full Attacks will apply a big sum-total Carnage damage with endgame abilities, such as Heart of Fury, but a max level Barbarian can swing Sanguine/Voidwheel with amazing impunity once the first enemy falls. This can result in a solid Carnage damage spike over the course of a combat encounter. The benefit of instant primary weapon recovery via Blood Thirst should not be underestimated. As of the recent testing in patch (1.2.0.0028) even the attack animation is canceled. It's seriously FAST.
• Completely unrelated to Carnage. You could forgo melee entirely if your goal is to dual Pistol/Blunderbuss Heart of Fury. Heart of Fury will fire at all enemies within range AND has the bonus of bypassing primary weapon reload (unlike Barbaric Blow). The downside is the ability cooldown, but you will still ultimately pump damage faster by just rushing the second Heart of Fury. Whether it's worth the 8 Rage is another matter.

EDIT: I saw an enemy get hit by the Carnage AoE triggered on them. They were moving fairly quickly (Terrified) and just ran into their own AoE. It was HILARIOUS.

Edited July 17, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[Haplok]

One interesting fact about Carnage is that it also seems to distribute Lord Darryn's Voulge Static Charge. This can lead to quite a lot extra aoe damage on a crit (plus area Perception debuff).

At least it used to be the case, not sure about current game version.

[mosspit]

That's a nice read into Carnage. I am going to assume that Wahai Paraga will proc Carnage on each individual hit (1.2.0028 apparently address the closed loop proc of its own attacks). Also I wonder how it interacts with WotEp.

 

I mentioned before but I was deeply disappointed with how the on-hit/crit procs were taken out of Carnage. Made it much less interesting to work with compared to PoE1.

[thelee]

thanks for all the research. looks like carnage is pretty weak compared to poe1. it seems like in general with end-game gear, the add'l damage from carnage is going to be a really minor contribution to your net damage output (since they're not benefiting from better weapon enchants).

 

given my own thoughts about the state of the corpse-eater, i wish i had voted barbarian most underpowered instead of ranger in that informal poll.

 

PS: any mod feel like stickying this thread? (and the power level compilation thread) i feel like [MECHANICS]-labeled deep-dives should be easily findable.

 

EDIT: maybe carnage is not too bad. 33% of base weapon damage scaled by might and PL when you're hitting two additional enemies with it is basically like getting an additional legendary enchant on your weapons (discounting a bit for the fact that focus-firing is better than an equivalent amount of total damage spread out). it's just not the massive aoe dps monster that carnage was in poe1. it also means might is super important for a barb (though it was in a way for poe1 too since it additively combined with the carnage damage penalty in poe1).

Edited July 13, 2018 by thelee

[aphotic]

Does Carnage proc for each enemy hit by Citzal's Spirit Lance? Could lead to some interesting overlapping if that's the case.

[UltimaLuminaire]

One interesting fact about Carnage is that it also seems to distribute Lord Darryn's Voulge Static Charge. This can lead to quite a lot extra aoe damage on a crit (plus area Perception debuff).

At least it used to be the case, not sure about current game version.

I'll need to double check the status effect in the GameDataBundle files, but if it works at all like Spirit Frenzy's "OnScoringGrazeHitOrCriticalHit" proc, then there is no weapon ID in the filter and thus it will still work with Carnage hits. I made a mistake saying Blood Frenzy works because that's only "OnCrit", which Carnage clearly cannot do.

 

EDIT: Yup, Static Charge event status effect also says "OnScoringGrazeHitOrCriticalHit" and specifies Pollaxe ID in the filter, but it also has !!!! Whoa! It actually has the ID for Carnage Attacks in the filter! I didn't even realize that was a thing, but I should have because Accurate Carnage needs to apply a filter so the accuracy buff only affects Carnage. Same deal with Barbaric Blow Carnage AoE size bonus. Time to make more personal mods! mwahahaha hashtagRisingCarnage

 

That's a nice read into Carnage. I am going to assume that Wahai Paraga will proc Carnage on each individual hit (1.2.0028 apparently address the closed loop proc of its own attacks). Also I wonder how it interacts with WotEp.

 

I mentioned before but I was deeply disappointed with how the on-hit/crit procs were taken out of Carnage. Made it much less interesting to work with compared to PoE1.

Wahai Paraga AoE specifically targets additional creatures with a primary attack. Because of this, Carnage will be able to take main hand weapon data, which is what it looks for. Observe Cadhu Scalth's Strike the Soul, for instance. As one of the few melee range attacks with its own penetration and damage value, it does not reference your main or off-hand for base weapon damage. Thus, Carnage never procs off of Strike the Soul (or I have missed with every Carnage attack that  might have proc on it over the course of 300 hours).

 

EDIT: Wahai Paraga should work like Spirit Lance and WotEP now so it doesn't proc itself infinitely. It has its own attack with unique damage and penetration. I doubt it works now. Will test.

 

EDIT2: Still haven't tested it yet, but checked attacks.gamedatabundle file for anything that has the Carnage or any specific weapon keyword ID. Special attacks that do should be capable of Carnage. Wahai Paraga does not have the Carnage Attack ID, but it does use the Pollaxe weapon attack ID. This would imply Carnage being able to proc on the random attacks. WotEP (primary target and AoE targets) has the proper weapon ID for the attacks, so they apply Carnage.

 

thanks for all the research. looks like carnage is pretty weak compared to poe1. it seems like in general with end-game gear, the add'l damage from carnage is going to be a really minor contribution to your net damage output (since they're not benefiting from better weapon enchants).

 

given my own thoughts about the state of the corpse-eater, i wish i had voted barbarian most underpowered instead of ranger in that informal poll.

 

PS: any mod feel like stickying this thread? (and the power level compilation thread) i feel like [MECHANICS]-labeled deep-dives should be easily findable.

 

EDIT: maybe carnage is not too bad. 33% of base weapon damage scaled by might and PL when you're hitting two additional enemies with it is basically like getting an additional legendary enchant on your weapons (discounting a bit for the fact that focus-firing is better than an equivalent amount of total damage spread out). it's just not the massive aoe dps monster that carnage was in poe1. it also means might is super important for a barb (though it was in a way for poe1 too since it additively combined with the carnage damage penalty in poe1).

That's why I love and keep mentioning Heart of Fury. Every cluster of bodies you can reach is just amazing bonus damage (with effective value increasing relative to enemy variety in armor type or damage type immunity). The issue is performance before high level because Barbarians rely on 3 mechanics (aside from Carnage) for damage up to that point:

• Critical Hits (and by extension Overpen) via Barbaric Blow and Bloody Slaughter (which both boost Critical Damage and Hit-to-Crit Chance)
• Attack Speed from Frenzy (25%), Wild Sprint (15% from Dex), and Bloodlust (20%)
• Slightly weaker damage passives. One Stands Alone is the standout for all game difficulty modes as your go-to buff for alpha strikes. Blooded is a strong conditional, but will become harder to rely on as Obsidian tweaks difficulty and adds more complex enemy attacks (with OnHit and OnCrit effects).

So already Barbarians need to spend themselves out if they want to spike. It's much better than it was back in PoE, but we lost Carnage effectiveness to compensate. This ties back into single class Corpse Eater being subpar before Power Level 5. The additional Rage Cost makes them less effective in buffing themselves and front loading damage, which is why you'll usually see the subclass paired with another class so you always have access to Full Attack options. Once you get to Barbaric Smash, though, you'll see a point during encounters where you lose much less Rage due to recycling (due to how Barbaric Smash is coded, it refunds 2 Rage every time; they did not make a separate entry for Corpse Eater like they did for Frenzy and Berserker). At that point, Corpse Eater shines because you get back 3 Rage whenever you have the opportunity. If you do decide to go single class Corpse Eater, I think you'll adjust quickly given your knowledge of mechanics.

 

On the other hand, you can still coast by on tankiness. Barbarian tank passives are among the best in the game. Thick Skinned, One Stands Alone, and Unflinching are excellent in most game modes.

 

Does Carnage proc for each enemy hit by Citzal's Spirit Lance? Could lead to some interesting overlapping if that's the case.

It appears to have a specific AoE attack that it uses, instead of doing multiple primary attacks (which makes sense because then it would just be an infinite loop of damage between multiple enemies). This means you would not proc Carnage off of targets caught in the AoE. You'll hit with the lance, and then see two AoE's occur: Spirit Lance AoE and Carnage AoE.

 

EDIT2: I verified in attack.gamedatabundle whether Spirit Lance's AoE has a Carnage or weapon keyword ID and it does not have either. So, it's unaffected by things like a Fighter's Weapon Specialization talent, too. The only ID it has is Conjuration, so anything that increases Conjuration effects would apply. I'll update the OP at some point with specific attacks that have useful keyword IDs. That way we will all know what can apply Carnage.

----

I'll update the OP with some info. Gotta cross out Blood Frenzy since that's OnCrit, and I should also mention another funny observation I had. Turns out enemies moving at sufficient speeds will be targeted by their own Carnage AoE hahahahahahaha. I caught this when I Terrified an opponent and they walked into the Carnage AoE triggered on them. Beautiful, and probably more reason Spirit Tornado is the next most OP thing on a solo Barbarian after Heart of Fury.

Edited July 14, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[hansvedic]

What about Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff? Does Carnage contribute to the healing provided by it?

[gkathellar]

IIRC, doesn't Lord Darryn's Voulge also have weird interactions with Might due to being elemental damage? How does that play out with Carnage's weird might scaling?

[Vaneglorious]

I don't know why they nerfed Carnage so heavily.

 

Is there even a reason to go Barb instead of just going Fighter outside of RP reasons?

[Haplok]

Barbarian is faster and more aggressive. Also at higher levels has more burst (with Barbaric Smash and Heart of Fury). Plus has some aoe CC options (Spirit Rage, Interrupting Blows, Shout, Spirit Frenzy)

Edited July 15, 2018 by Haplok

[Loren Tyr]

I don't know why they nerfed Carnage so heavily.

 

Is there even a reason to go Barb instead of just going Fighter outside of RP reasons?

 

To be honest, that Carnage got toned down a couple notches compared to PoE 1 is not unreasonable. Definitely the attack AOE effects needed to go with the introduction of multiclassing, and it's not like it's useless now. 

 

Compared to fighters, indeed as Haplok says, it's faster and more aggressive style, compared to a fighter's generally more defensive set-up. Plenty of room for both I'd say. 

[UltimaLuminaire]

What about Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff? Does Carnage contribute to the healing provided by it?

Haven't tested yet. Since it's a low level spell, it should be a quick. Though, I've looked at the game files and it does not look promising. There doesn't appear to be any possible interaction with Carnage in the gamedatabundle files, just the unique melee attack made for the summoned weapon.

 

IIRC, doesn't Lord Darryn's Voulge also have weird interactions with Might due to being elemental damage? How does that play out with Carnage's weird might scaling?

It doesn't influence Carnage damage at all. The only thing Carnage will do is lay on a count of Static Charge if your secondary Carnage attacks hit.

 

I don't know why they nerfed Carnage so heavily.

 

Is there even a reason to go Barb instead of just going Fighter outside of RP reasons?

Pre-nerf, Fighter was definitely better than Barbarian in almost every way. We don't live in that world anymore, and to top it off Constant Recovery is not comparable to Carnage. They are two different passives achieving different goals.

 

Carnage was nerfed to be farther behind compared to other damage passives unless there is a well placed mob, where you'll likely break even or better. Due to scaling and enemy variety, it's hard to adequately compare Carnage to upgradeable passives like Soul Whip, but over the course of the game you will see the Barbarian's Carnage net more damage than other single-class damage passives simply due to the consistency it brings in fights against mobs with damage immunity and/or high armor. Besides, the nerf lets the dev team throw all that power/potential into other tools in the Barbarian's kit.  It's not meant to single-handedly win vs mobs like it did in PoE1. You have to use your active abilities in concert and risk exhausting your Barbarian resources to truly spike. Low startup, no cooldown Frenzy, instant Nimble + engagement immunity via Wild Sprint, quick cast Leap with relatively low cooldown (something you couldn't do in PoE1 until the very end of the White March), the list goes on. By the time you get Spirit Tornado, you can start spamming 30+ cold damage + Terrify AoE nearly every second, and this gets much higher with each PL beyond. It's beautiful and arguably makes the nerf to Carnage worth it.

Edited July 16, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[mant2si]

 

What about Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff? Does Carnage contribute to the healing provided by it?

Haven't tested yet. Since it's a low level spell, it should be a quick. Though, I've looked at the game files and it does not look promising. There doesn't appear to be any possible interaction with Carnage in the gamedatabundle files, just the unique melee attack made for the summoned weapon.

 

IIRC, doesn't Lord Darryn's Voulge also have weird interactions with Might due to being elemental damage? How does that play out with Carnage's weird might scaling?

It doesn't influence Carnage damage at all. The only thing Carnage will do is lay on a count of Static Charge if your secondary Carnage attacks hit.

 

I don't know why they nerfed Carnage so heavily.

 

Is there even a reason to go Barb instead of just going Fighter outside of RP reasons?

Pre-nerf, Fighter was definitely better than Barbarian in almost every way. We don't live in that world anymore, and to top it off Constant Recovery is not comparable to Carnage. They are two different passives achieving different goals.

 

Carnage was nerfed to be farther behind compared to other damage passives unless there is a well placed mob, where you'll likely break even or better. Due to scaling and enemy variety, it's hard to adequately compare Carnage to upgradeable passives like Soul Whip, but over the course of the game you will see the Barbarian's Carnage net more damage than other single-class damage passives simply due to the consistency it brings in fights against mobs with damage immunity and/or high armor. Besides, the nerf lets the dev team throw all that power/potential into other tools in the Barbarian's kit.  It's not meant to single-handedly win vs mobs like it did in PoE1. You have to use your active abilities in concert and risk exhausting your Barbarian resources to truly spike. Low startup, no cooldown Frenzy, instant Nimble + engagement immunity via Wild Sprint, quick cast Leap with relatively low cooldown (something you couldn't do in PoE1 until the very end of the White March), the list goes on. By the time you get Spirit Tornado, you can start spamming 30+ cold damage + Terrify AoE nearly every second, and this gets much higher with each PL beyond. It's beautiful and arguably makes the nerf to Carnage worth it.

 

 

The last arguments sound very squishy, we play in world where Wizard can eliminate entire group with single spell, pure monks with unlimited Whispers of the Wind and auto-attack Resonate can kill last boss with - 4 - 5 htis, where Fighter can regen more damage than incoming DPS, where any rogue get 100% + 150% DM

 

In current game state carnage without  barbarian passive/food/poitions DM modifiers is garbage

Edited July 16, 2018 by mant2si

[UltimaLuminaire]

@mant2si

 

You didn't read the key points. No setup at the start of combat other than maybe a Wild Sprint or a Leap. No legendary equipment needed. Not even time because less than a second startup and no cooldown. By high level it's doing 70+ cold damage in a massive AoE every .7 sec (faster and stronger after the first use). It only costs 1 Rage and chains ruthlessly with Barbaric Smash for resource recycling as needed. It's EASILY up there with Heart of Fury. I would gladly let Carnage stay where it is so we can keep power and speed in Barbarian active abilities.

I did not say anything about 1v1 or bosses, of which pretty much any 1 cost resource Full Attack will out-DPS Spirit Tornado. This is for mobs, and has consistently killed them off before I could place a single-class monk in position with the appropriate wounds or a single-class wizard could fire off the first empowered damage spell. Even after the Monk gets in position and has the resources to fire a big attack off, the Barbarian is still firing off the AoE at a different mob and will likely get off 5 more before the Monk recovers in order to generate wounds. It can also be done before Monk even has access to Whispers of the Wind, and thus has solid accuracy, damage, and penetration bonuses from PL as a result. The only downside (and a big one) is that it uses up all your Rage in order to spam, and a Barbarian without Rage in Deadfire is on the slow side. That, and if we're looking at the game as a whole, it's nowhere near the power you'll experience from multi-classing. Definitely takes the winds out of the sail since Spirit Tornado and Heart of Fury are the only reasons to single-class a Barbarian.

 

As for Carnage benefiting from passives, food, or potions, it normally doesn't. The only Barbarian passive that influences Carnage is Accurate Carnage, which adds a small +5. It ignores food and potions unless they grant Might, PL, or Interrupt on hit. Even then, Might and PL only have a small influence and Interrupts on hit were nerfed in % chance.

Responding to Fighter passive, Constant Recovery in no way lets you regen through all DPS, especially mid level and higher mobs. It doesn't happen fast enough or with a high enough base value, even after talent upgrade, to do that. The idea is you'll kill them before they kill you. If you want to actually out-heal mob DPS, you need to stack actives and item passives to do that, and that's fine. It's balanced very well. Also, screw Arcane Dampener working on Constant Recovery. Sorry, I just... it makes me mad.

Responding to Rogue passive, Sneak attack is 30%. We're comparing base passives. For most of the early game, you could equate Carnage to a 10% lash as long as a 2nd enemy is near the primary target. Get another enemy and that's another 10% for a total of 20%. Carnage will never be as good at damage as true damage passives without that 3rd or 4th enemy. Once you get to mid or high level, then Carnage is relatively bad unless enemy mob has high armor and/or damage immunity since Raw damage doesn't care. There are plenty of these mobs, especially if you are challenging content earlier than you should, and we will likely see more in future expansions. That's where my comment about overall net damage comes from. Over the course of a playthrough, if you only looked at what the base damage passives are doing, you'll see Carnage come out on par if not slightly ahead. All of this is fine, since Barbarian will have all the abilities it needs to fullfill its intended role as a crowd controller with damage support. Whether Carnage should get a talent upgrade like all the other damage passives in the game is a different discussion. Probably one I am too biased to participate in considering I've modded my game for that very talent.

I think you are simply too fixated on endgame Carnage. What matters is how these base damage passives work with you as you explore content from beginning to end. All of my observations of Carnage accounts for organic exploration of content at varying difficulties. Obviously, if you only want to look at end game, Carnage offers you even less since the idea by then is to use your abilities to nuke. In a party with all Strikers, you nuke things so fast you'll barely have anything to Carnage after the first 3 seconds. It becomes irrelevant outside of Heart of Fury, which lets you apply Carnage many, many more times for excellent potential damage at the very beginning of combat, where enemies are thickest. The point I'm trying to make is that Carnage is okay for the game as a whole, and you never multi-class or pick solo Barbarian for Carnage alone. You pick Barbarian because they have beautiful eyes, rapier wit, and a body to die for. You pick them because the kit works great.

Edited July 16, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[mant2si]

Okay, I just post these videos there (you can compare DPS with HoF for pure Barbarian), I specially recorded Queen fight for this post. This is DD mod with +30% HP and +9L scale

I made an error this is normal up-scaled PotD not DD

And of-course I mean Unbending not Constant Recovery :D

I if you ask me about early - middle - endgame, then again carnage is really bad, just compare it with any L1 AOE spell, Corrode touch or Chill Fog
Carnage is bad if you compare it with any AOE weapon for any game stage
Carnage is bad even when you fight with more than 1 guy

But after your post I ended with good solo shaman build that can do 20 AOE DM per hit, not that bad, but single target damage still suck Edited July 16, 2018 by mant2si

[mant2si]

I want to ask. Could we modify carnage ability to do 33% of attack damage without transferring abilities effects or additional procs ?

While most of barbarian powers relay on Hit -> Crit conversion and additional crit damage this sound logic. This change will make carnage do 33 - 40 DM on targets in near death state and 10 - 20 on full health targets, which mean the more damage we do to our targets -> the stronger carnage

[kmbogd]

It seems that in the meantime Carnage has been upgraded: it now scales with 10% per PL. So the new formula is: (([base Weapon Damage] * [Might Damage Bonus]) * 0.33)(1 + (0.1 * PL)). When dual-wielding, the issue with it taking into account only the main-hand weapon still remains.

[thelee]

It seems that in the meantime Carnage has been upgraded: it now scales with 10% per PL. So the new formula is: (([base Weapon Damage] * [Might Damage Bonus]) * 0.33)(1 + (0.1 * PL)). When dual-wielding, the issue with it taking into account only the main-hand weapon still remains.

 

nice find!

[Jackjonez]

I loved barbarian's carnage A LOT in PoE1 and its ability to debuff everyone if using a debuffing weapon like Tall Grass. So did I understand it correctly that carnage no longer applies weapon debuffs to every target? If so, then that's a huge disappointment and a nerf.

[Haplok]

Indeed.

[thelee]

TBF carnage in poe1 could quickly become very abusable, especially since the way the damage penalty was implemented you could trivialize with other sources of bonus damage, or use the monk pseudo-talent to get fists which are basically immune to damage penalties.

[Boeroer]

It also "only" had a -34% dmg modifier and besides that wasn't restricted to weapon base damage like in Deadfire. It was like a normal additional attack roll with a dmg malus and a malus to ACC. THe rest was equal to your initial weapon attack.

 

Another plus of PoE's Carnage was that it counted as ability - and all offensive abilites in PoE get +1 ACC per char level, Carnage included. It started with -10 ACC, but as soon as you took Accurate Carnage and reached lvl 5 your Carnage's accuracy was equal to your normal weapon accuracy and then got stronger and stronger with every level. At lvl 16 (and Accurate Carnage) you had +11 ACC.

 

In Deadfire Carnage can't even crit with it... 

 

The PL scaling means that a single class Corpse Eater might get most dmg out of it because of the +PL food.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

I did some more testing with Carnage and a SC Corpse Eater and Carnage seems to scale further with the PL bonuses of Forbidden Fleh Pie (+2PL), Wellspring of Life (+1PL when frenzied), Prestige (+1 PL) and Power Surge (+1 PL). At lvl 20 and the mentioned abilites Carnage does over 100% of the weapon base dmg roll as raw dmg.

 

I did futher testing with Amra to do "double Carnage", but the MIG/crit-induced "Gore-Carnage" of it doesn't seem to scale (except the slash-PEN scales with quality enchantment). While my original Carnage's dmg climbed up with PL the one of Amra always stayed the same.

Since it also has to overcome slash PEN I'd say it's pretty weak overall. It does stack with normal Carnage meaning that you'll hit the enemies with two attack rolls (1 raw, 1 slash) once you crit. The enchantment that instakills foes who are under 50 health it very nice though if combined with Blood Thirst. Because of PEN/AR issues and the non-scaling I'd say that enchantment is better than the one which gives you 33% instead of 25%.

 

Dual fists with Monastic UT also worked pretty well despite the fact that Corpse Eater food doesn't boost it. I figured that the high PL with which it scales, the high base dmg (for such a fast weapon) and the attack speed might be good for Carnage's dmg output.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Boeroer