Poll - Strongest/ Weakest Class (1.2.0)

[mant2si]

 

5) Ciphers - OK, Beguiler under-powered

 

wat

...

Yep :D I agree, because of that I wrote OK - Okay

Edited July 8, 2018 by mant2si

[Manveru123]

wizard takes too long to self buff. 

Buff spells are instant cast and have no delay (I think Merciless Gaze is the only one with cast time). It takes like 2 second tops to buff to the full. You can even use an AI script to automate this proccess.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Manveru123

[thelee]

 

 

5) Ciphers - OK, Beguiler under-powered

 

wat

...

Yep :D I agree, because of that I wrote OK - Okay

 

 

i was more flabbergasted that you wrote "beguiler under-powered." beguiler > other cipher subclasses imo.

[Boeroer]

wizard takes too long to self buff. while wizard is strong when buffed while wizard is buffing themselves/ summoning weapons pure melee dps like barb, rogue monk etc are already killing things so their dps is better unless you play specifically for the wizard but that's like cheating. in a free for all rogues would win anyways because stealth->kill, stealth->kill etc.

 

Also in my tests at least before stunning blows (up to level 10ish) best melee dps comes out of barbarian (zerker) and rogue (streetfighter) with monk (tested helwalker as no shenanigans/consumables run) coming in third among melee.

 

Also a lightly / no armored well built ranged dps/caster will outdamage melee because you can be more glass cannon at range and take more risks. also while melee is running up to the target the ranged dps is already firing/ damaging.

 

basically, that's semantics but that is the reality of actual combat as ranged will typically have more uptime on target.

Wizard casts 2 buffs as fast as a barb can cast Frenzy. And if he wants to add another 2 it will cost him less than a second. I can't see how others already killed lots of stuff in that time.

[heldred]

Agree...

 

Ciphers are CC demigods.

 

Wiz buffs (if you select the 0.4 second kind) are plenty fast. The buffs that are 3.0 seconds are 2.6 seconds too long... makes no sense once you taste the crack of half-second buffs. To be fair, the devs should just standardize all buffs to 0.8 seconds and adjust the power/durance accordingly.

[no1fanboy]

Hm... maybe those:

- single class Barbarian with Wahaī Pōraga and Heart of Fury.

- Wizard/Rogue with Spirit Lance + Toxic Strike

- Helwalker/Rogue with Wahaī Pōraga and Toxic Strike

- Wizard/Fighter with Spirit Lance and Clear Out.

- Monk/Wizard with Spirit Lance and Stunning Surge/Heartbeat Drumming/Swift Flurry

- single class monk with Wahaī Pōraga and Whispers of the Wind.

They all profit from broken mechanics around AoE weapons. I guess those will get nerfed soon. It's just too good. At least in encounters with a lot of enemies.

So i take it spirit lance is good?

 

Probably even better after the doam buff?

[Boeroer]

Yes - everything with an AoE attack that transports procs from abilities is crazy.

I'm pretty sure that we will see a nerf of those mechanics at some point like we had in PoE. There I once showed how you can use stuff like Knockdown or Envenomed Strikes in an AoE with Spirit Lance or Minor Blights and soon after that it got nerfed so that the AoE "blasts" didn't do that anymore. I wonder why they did the same "mistake" in Deadfire again. They already nerfed Rod Blast from transporting rogue strikes but did not nerf Lance and Blights or Hand Mortar etc. So either they forgot or they follow a "step by step" nerfing protocol.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[mant2si]

Yes - everything with an AoE attack that transports procs from abilities is crazy.

I'm pretty sure that we will see a nerf of those mechanics at some point like we had in PoE. There I once showed how you can use stuff like Knockdown or Envenomed Strikes in an AoE with Spirit Lance or Minor Blights and soon after that it got nerfed so that the AoE "blasts" didn't do that anymore. I wonder why they did the same "mistake" in Deadfire again. They already nerfed Rod Blast from transporting rogue strikes but did not nerf Lance and Blights or Hand Mortar etc. So either they forgot or they follow a "step by step" nerfing protocol.

I assume that they used some part of old engine, without latest PoE I patches, that why there exist some bugs from PoE I

Edited July 9, 2018 by mant2si

[Boeroer]

I have no idea. They removed that pitfall from Carnage but reintroduced it with Lance and rod Blast. Blast never had this mechanic in PoE so I guess they just reprogrammed the whole stuff and there were people involved that hadn't experienced the nerf history of Lance, Blast etc.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

i would say the poorest class probably is ranger and priest. here's hoping obsidian wakes up and help the weaker class and not keep nerfing without upping their game.

[Loren Tyr]

Yes - everything with an AoE attack that transports procs from abilities is crazy.

I'm pretty sure that we will see a nerf of those mechanics at some point like we had in PoE. There I once showed how you can use stuff like Knockdown or Envenomed Strikes in an AoE with Spirit Lance or Minor Blights and soon after that it got nerfed so that the AoE "blasts" didn't do that anymore. I wonder why they did the same "mistake" in Deadfire again. They already nerfed Rod Blast from transporting rogue strikes but did not nerf Lance and Blights or Hand Mortar etc. So either they forgot or they follow a "step by step" nerfing protocol.

 

They didn't, actually (or they unnerfed it again, but that seems unlikely). I have Aloth as Spellblade happily blasting away, applying any of the full attack ability effects to AOE (and same obviously also works with Flames of Devotion, Barbaric Blow, etc.). 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Loren Tyr

[Boeroer]

You mean with rod + Blast or Minor Blights? Because they removed the effect of Blast (transporting rogue's afflictons) in beta3 but kept it for Minor Blights. If this got reverted they did it either right on realease or secretly with one of the following patches.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Loren Tyr]

With Rod Blast. Not sure when they put it back in, but it definitely works at the moment (and hopefully at least as long as my current playthrough  )

Edited July 9, 2018 by Loren Tyr

[Boeroer]

Oh cool. Thanks for updating me. I've been avoiding rods since beta3 because of this.

[prodigydancer]

Ciphers are probably the hardest class to learn out of all the classes.

This is just a common euphemism for "a class that totally sucks and requires twice the effort to be on par with more powerful classes."

 

I don't understand one thing: why does Obsidian hate Ciphers so much? The class is their own creation after all. Yet they nerfed them into oblivion in PoE1, and now it's the same story in PoE2.

Edited July 9, 2018 by prodigydancer

[Dr <3]

Back to the "best dps question":

 

For having high dps you need a combination of

 

- accuracy

- dmg modifiers

- speed

 

- aoe dmg ( casters)

 

Different classes can give huge bonus to one or more department, combine 2 different kind of boost (es: dmg + attack speed) gives usually better benefits than stack only one kind.

 

Imho:

- barbarian : best speed bonuses (25% frenzy, 20% passive bloodlust); good dmg bonuses

- rogue : better dmg boosts ( up to 300%-400% woth streetfighter), a lot of full attacks [ripose, various strikes] (kind of speed bonus)

- warrior : ok dmg boost, speed bonus in form of free attacks with cleaving stance, awesome survival

- paladin: moderate dmg and speed boost ( fod), awesome survival

- ranger : better accuracy boost (~50 accuracy)

- monk : good speed bost, a lot of "free attacks" with critical builds, good dmg boost (hellwalker), good spammable full attacks

 

In my hands better "non broken" ( not abusing aoe weapons) combination so far are:

- monk / rogue [ hellwalker/streetfighter] : between ripose, heartbeat drumming, swift strikes you can really abuse the massive dmg bonus of the rogue

- barbarian / rogue [ berserk/streetfighter] : good speed bonuses, 0 recovery after a kill, terror on demand and a lot of full attacks , always abusing massove dmg booster from rogue

 

Warrior-rogue is a bit behind in dps but very sturdy

Monk ranger is good for crazy accuracy that brings a lot of "free attacks", but misses the huge dmg boost of the rogue

[prodigydancer]

I wonder why people consider Wizards powerful. Wizards were the best total DPS in PoE1 (though they lacked burst) but now, with CF nerfed, even that steady DPS is gone. Most afflictions are waste of time (again, unlike PoE1 where crowd control was king) except Blinded but there are other sources of it.

 

So, what's left? Mostly defensive self-buffs in a game that is 90% DPS race? Pass.

[K2K]

Wizards are still reasonably powerful, what irks me is massive loss of versatility and I really hate grimoire mechanics.

[Verde]

^^^^^

 

I could be wrong but the beserker kit is probably the stongest kit in the game

 

i think its 40% hit to hit conversion

 

Insanely powerful with very little consequences

 

i cant wait to roll a beserker/ trickster with max perception

 

BEAST

Isn't confusion a major downside?

[K2K]

Resistance to intellect afflictions solves that issue.

[Haplok]

 

Imho:
- barbarian : best speed bonuses (25% frenzy, 20% passive bloodlust); good dmg bonuses
- rogue : better dmg boosts ( up to 300%-400% woth streetfighter), a lot of full attacks [ripose, various strikes] (kind of speed bonus)
 

 

Actually a Streetfighter with Heating Up or On the Edge is a lot faster then a Barbarian.

[Boeroer]

Heating up gives you the recovery boost of 50%. It is faster than Frenzy + Bloodlust, but you have to get flanked - and as soon as you are not flanked or bloodied you are a lot slower than the average joe. So a general decision about what's faster on average is difficult - your speed depends on several variables that may apply or not. And of course Blood Thirst...

Edited July 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Manveru123]

I wonder why people consider Wizards powerful. Wizards were the best total DPS in PoE1 (though they lacked burst) but now, with CF nerfed, even that steady DPS is gone. Most afflictions are waste of time (again, unlike PoE1 where crowd control was king) except Blinded but there are other sources of it.

 

So, what's left? Mostly defensive self-buffs in a game that is 90% DPS race? Pass.

Have you seen how much damage an empowered spell can do? A lot. In a huge AoE. And you can follow it up with more big AoE spells. Glass-cannon, geared up Wizard is a monster.

 

The only self buff you'll ever need is Merciless Gaze (and DAoM in 1.2 I guess).

[Boeroer]

I wonder why people consider Wizards powerful.

Because of spells. Especially highly effective spells like both Rymrgand's or a lvl 1 spell that blinds in a huge AoE named Chillfog... And I think mainly because the dmg spells of Wizards work best with the empower mechanics. Since you can rest nearly whenever you want that's a huge advantage over classes that don't profit from Empower that much. IF you are willing to use Empower of course. If not then the wizard loses power - but only in your game, not in general.

 

Also: Ciphers are dedicated mind controllers - and mind control is the strongest CC effect in Deadfire. I can't see how a Cipher can not be a valuable member in any party. Especially single class Ciphers who can pick the +ACC passive around will-based spells a lot earlier and also can regain focus per crit. Combine that with the Beguiler's special feature of regainig focus with deception spells and you have one of the best CC char in the game - in my opinion.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[thelee]

 

 

Imho:

- barbarian : best speed bonuses (25% frenzy, 20% passive bloodlust); good dmg bonuses

- rogue : better dmg boosts ( up to 300%-400% woth streetfighter), a lot of full attacks [ripose, various strikes] (kind of speed bonus)

 

 

Actually a Streetfighter with Heating Up or On the Edge is a lot faster then a Barbarian.

 

 

 

Heating up gives you the recovery boost of 50%. It is faster than Frenzy + Bloodlust, but you have to get flanked - and as soon as you are not flanked or bloodied you are a lot slower than the average joe. So a general decision about what's faster on average is difficult - your speed depends on several variables that may apply or not. And of course Blood Thirst...

 

Just some clarification note here (not saying Haplok and Boeroer got it wrong here, but just for anyone else following who might have missed the subtle differences). Frenzy and bloodlust give you action speed bonuses (additive to be a total of +45% through both your attack and recovery).

 

Streetfighter's Heating Up gives you a recovery time boost of -50%, which is more like a +100% action speed boost for your recovery. As far as melee is concerned, you only spend about 14.5% of your time in the actual attack, so the Heating Up is like a +85.5% action speed boost. So it's almost twice as good as frenzy + bloodlust. So like Haplok said, it's not just faster, it's a lot faster.

 

I don't recall barbarians get anything remotely on the level of the +50% Heating Up dmg boost, the +70% endgame sneak attack boost, or +100% crit damage from being On The Edge (though the uptime is harder to sustain for On The Edge) so I think if the question is about single-target DPS without anything particularly gimmicky, it's not even close. Unfortunately a flanked streetfighter that is at bloodied or lower is way squishier than a barbarian, which makes even a narrow single-target DPS ranking hard to do IMO.

 

In my hands better "non broken" ( not abusing aoe weapons) combination so far are:

- monk / rogue [ hellwalker/streetfighter] : between ripose, heartbeat drumming, swift strikes you can really abuse the massive dmg bonus of the rogue

- barbarian / rogue [ berserk/streetfighter] : good speed bonuses, 0 recovery after a kill, terror on demand and a lot of full attacks , always abusing massove dmg booster from rogue

 

for monk/rogue: why bother with riposte when you can just spam blade turning and actually keep yourself alive to do damage. for that matter, i don't think helwalker is the optimal choice here: if we care about sustainability at all, a flanked streetfighter getting +50% damage from enemies is going to die very quickly even with blade turning on (a couple arrows from someone behind enemy lines). as for monk v barbarian, the streetfighter/sneak attack/crit damage bonus is so high that +10 might from helwalker, while good, is not going to be as good as investing more in action speed at that point and while monks get swift strikes barbarians get the aforementioned +45% action speed. plus with berserk and barbaric blow you get massive hit->crit conversion which gets you that sweet on the edge damage bonus (in an aoe even!). even if you stick with monk i think if you pick nazpalca or shattered pillars you can get wounds uptime to spam blade turning without having to actually get hit by potentially scary enemies (with a damage bonus, no less).

 

anyway, I guess this thread is a theorycrafting thread now.

 

 

 

I wonder why people consider Wizards powerful.

Because of spells. Especially highly effective spells like both Rymrgand's or a lvl 1 spell that blinds in a huge AoE named Chillfog... And I think mainly because the dmg spells of Wizards work best with the empower mechanics. Since you can rest nearly whenever you want that's a huge advantage over classes that don't profit from Empower that much. IF you are willing to use Empower of course. If not then the wizard loses power - but only in your game, not in general.

 

Also: Ciphers are dedicated mind controllers - and mind control is the strongest CC effect in Deadfire. I can't see how a Cipher can not be a valuable member in any party. Especially single class Ciphers who can pick the +ACC passive around will-based spells a lot earlier and also can regain focus per crit. Combine that with the Beguiler's special feature of regainig focus with deception spells and you have one of the best CC char in the game - in my opinion.

 

 

+100. Also I find it hilariously ironic that it felt like in the backer beta people were constantly complaining about how weak wizards were and now wizards are a popular vote for most powerful class. this is also the exact same thing that happened with poe1. i think this may also be related to people undervaluing beguilers; i think most players just severely undervalue CC. wizards can do a stupid amount of damage when geared right with empower; but even though so many people focus on e.g. empowering meteor shower, wizards are also powerful because they also have powerful CC. (seriously, more people needed to have tried the wizard black bow spell before the 1.2 nerf.) like, even PL1 slicken is a prone effect that repeats, and enemy AI casters tend not to be smart enough to stop trying to waste their spells or get out of the area while they keep getting knocked down (it also gets +2 acc/PL for scaling).

Edited July 10, 2018 by thelee