Poll - Strongest/ Weakest Class (1.2.0)

[baldurs_gate_2]

Why does solo matter? This game was designed with party in mind. There's like a hundred other games to play solo

First game was not made for solo play, had a TCS achievement, so it was some sort of balanced that way. This game will probably get an similar achievement in the future.

 

At the current state, the game is just not challenging enough to play in a party.

[thelee]

 

 

First game was not made for solo play, had a TCS achievement, so it was some sort of balanced that way.

 

Wrong. They literally threw up those TCS/Frozen Crown Solo/The Ultimate achievement up there just to see if anyone could do it. They actually got a lot of heat from people who like 100% achievement but don't have the patience/wherewithal to do something that tediously insane, which is why there is no TCS-style achievement in Deadfire.

[Loren Tyr]

First game was not made for solo play, had a TCS achievement, so it was some sort of balanced that way. This game will probably get an similar achievement in the future.

 

At the current state, the game is just not challenging enough to play in a party.

 

 

How is it relevant whether it's an achievement or not? Personally I couldn't be less interested in TCS if I tried, but anyone who actually enjoys that sort of thing can do that already. What's a bit of fanfare at the end going to add to that?

[knownastherat]

Trying to answer the question would take us far off-topic but let's just say we live in the age of virtual achievements, virtual diplomacy or virtual interaction or virtual sexuality. Lots of stuff for our brains, who have not evolved virtually, to handle. 

 

Back on topic, I ran further analysis on Terrify and my numbers tell me that 8 sec and even 7 sec duration is too much. Around 5 sec is balanced, considering Wizard is the strongest class.  

Edited July 3, 2018 by knownastherat

[heldred]

Monk is great as a solo class, but combined with multi-anything it becomes borderline broken.

 

Priest is the biggest disappointment because other classes provide equal or superior: healing, cc, debuffs, summons, damage, etc. It is a substandard misfit of a class that is outshined in many categories and provides inferior synergy in multi-class.

 

These are my two biggest outliers (Monk/Priest), everything in between needs less work. If the devs are reading, I believe your triage should focus on Monk (detuning) and Priest (buffing).

 

Unless the devs want 1,000+ of hours of work improving/balancing all classes to monk tier (which will also reibforce the need to raise difficulty on POTD), they should just go after the losers and the winners.

Edited July 3, 2018 by heldred

[thelee]

Priest is the biggest disappointment because other classes provide equal or superior: healing, cc, debuffs, summons, damage, etc. It is a substandard misfit of a class that is outshined in many categories and provides inferior synergy in multi-class.

 

These are my two biggest outliers (Monk/Priest), everything in between needs less work. If the devs are reading, I believe your triage should focus on Monk (detuning) and Priest (buffing).

 

I actually think priest is not so bad. Vanilla priest (eothas) is weak, but the other subclasses get interesting bonus spells (especially skaen and wael) so I put 4/5 priests in the middle of the pack. Eothas/vanilla priest definitely feels like it needs work, though, both from the perspective of not feeling too great, but more particularly because the eothas-specific subclass only gets one special spell (sunbeam at PL1) and the rest is already in the priest ability tree, so virtually anything the eothas priest does, any other priest can do better.

 

I honestly think ranger is the biggest disappointment (was my vote for weakest). If I multiclass it with something else it gets better, but its main saving grace to me is the Ghost Heart subclass (can be a good disruptor against behind-the-enemy-lines casters and such); I feel like a lot of its active abilities are pretty lame sauce.

[Answermancer]

 

Still can't figure out why Ranger is voted worst class but Rogue: A Worse Ranger is by popular opinion considered the third best.

 

Really? I don't know man, sneak attack (and eventually deathblows) gets you pretty far along the power curve imo. Also streetfighter = most fun I've had with a rogue-type in quite a while.

 

 

Can someone explain to me why Streetfighter is good, or fun even? The downsides seem way too annoying to me.

 

I'm a rogue fanatic and play a ton of rogues in every game, but I don't see why everyone loves Streetfighter. In my Swashbuckler (Rogue/Devoted) playthrough, I was flanked maybe 5 times over 100 hours of playtime, and unless you have a ton of Con (which I don't want) then staying Bloodied for more than a few seconds seems like a death sentence.

 

I'm clearly missing something here but the downsides seemed way too annoying for me to try it. I love the micro of afflicting things and then Sneak Attacking them, but having to constantly micro to put myself in bad positions (flanked) or suffer a slower attack speed doesn't sound the least bit fun to me.

 

Edit: Or is it for like Riposte builds with high Res? A super tanky high-Res rogue also sounds like heresy to me so maybe that's why I'm not into it.

 

Edit 2: So after some reading, high Con, high Res builds with ****ty other stats? That like, literally offends me. That's disgusting, you should all be ashamed, Obsidian most of all for allowing it to happen. Tanky rogues, /vomit. I need a shower.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Answermancer

[heldred]

I agree the Wael/Skaen Priests are more effective (than other Priest options), but put them against a Wiz and it is no contest.

Edited July 4, 2018 by heldred

[no1fanboy]

I agree the Wael/Skaen Priests are more effective (than other Priest options), but put them against a Wiz and it is no contest.

yeah when you look at it from that perspective preists are pretty crap

 

All there buffs that only give the +5 to certain stats just arent worth casting and when you do cast them you hardly even notice the difference

[thelee]

 

 

Still can't figure out why Ranger is voted worst class but Rogue: A Worse Ranger is by popular opinion considered the third best.

 

Really? I don't know man, sneak attack (and eventually deathblows) gets you pretty far along the power curve imo. Also streetfighter = most fun I've had with a rogue-type in quite a while.

 

 

Can someone explain to me why Streetfighter is good, or fun even? The downsides seem way too annoying to me.

 

I'm a rogue fanatic and play a ton of rogues in every game, but I don't see why everyone loves Streetfighter. In my Swashbuckler (Rogue/Devoted) playthrough, I was flanked maybe 5 times over 100 hours of playtime, and unless you have a ton of Con (which I don't want) then staying Bloodied for more than a few seconds seems like a death sentence.

 

I'm clearly missing something here but the downsides seemed way too annoying for me to try it. I love the micro of afflicting things and then Sneak Attacking them, but having to constantly micro to put myself in bad positions (flanked) or suffer a slower attack speed doesn't sound the least bit fun to me.

 

Edit: Or is it for like Riposte builds with high Res? A super tanky high-Res rogue also sounds like heresy to me so maybe that's why I'm not into it.

 

Edit 2: So after some reading, high Con, high Res builds with ****ty other stats? That like, literally offends me. That's disgusting, you should all be ashamed, Obsidian most of all for allowing it to happen. Tanky rogues, /vomit. I need a shower.

 

 

post-1.2 patch, my educational streetfighter/wael build is likely going to be a low con, low res build.

 

streetfighters are fun because they are a high-risk, high-reward endeavor. you're literally "on the edge" to get the most out of a streetfighter, and at least for me it triggers my adrenaline glands when i'm in near-constant dangerous situation but can output a stupid amount of damage.

Edited July 4, 2018 by thelee

[dunehunter]

 

 

Still can't figure out why Ranger is voted worst class but Rogue: A Worse Ranger is by popular opinion considered the third best.

 

Really? I don't know man, sneak attack (and eventually deathblows) gets you pretty far along the power curve imo. Also streetfighter = most fun I've had with a rogue-type in quite a while.

 

 

Can someone explain to me why Streetfighter is good, or fun even? The downsides seem way too annoying to me.

 

I'm a rogue fanatic and play a ton of rogues in every game, but I don't see why everyone loves Streetfighter. In my Swashbuckler (Rogue/Devoted) playthrough, I was flanked maybe 5 times over 100 hours of playtime, and unless you have a ton of Con (which I don't want) then staying Bloodied for more than a few seconds seems like a death sentence.

 

I'm clearly missing something here but the downsides seemed way too annoying for me to try it. I love the micro of afflicting things and then Sneak Attacking them, but having to constantly micro to put myself in bad positions (flanked) or suffer a slower attack speed doesn't sound the least bit fun to me.

 

Edit: Or is it for like Riposte builds with high Res? A super tanky high-Res rogue also sounds like heresy to me so maybe that's why I'm not into it.

 

Edit 2: So after some reading, high Con, high Res builds with ****ty other stats? That like, literally offends me. That's disgusting, you should all be ashamed, Obsidian most of all for allowing it to happen. Tanky rogues, /vomit. I need a shower.

 

 

What's wrong with building a class in different ways? We should be able to build a class to fit any roles though it might be inferior to classes specialized in the role. I don't see the issue of a tanky rogue, it's not obliged, you can build one is not equal to you have to build one.

[Boeroer]

There's nothing wrong with it - unless you choose to be narrow minded on that matter I guess.

[Answermancer]

 

Edit 2: So after some reading, high Con, high Res builds with ****ty other stats? That like, literally offends me. That's disgusting, you should all be ashamed, Obsidian most of all for allowing it to happen. Tanky rogues, /vomit. I need a shower.

 

What's wrong with building a class in different ways? We should be able to build a class to fit any roles though it might be inferior to classes specialized in the role. I don't see the issue of a tanky rogue, it's not obliged, you can build one is not equal to you have to build one.

 

 

In case it wasn't clear from the extremeness of my reaction, I wasn't entirely serious. ;P

 

I just don't think Streetfighters are for me.

 

post-1.2 patch, my educational streetfighter/wael build is likely going to be a low con, low res build.

 

streetfighters are fun because they are a high-risk, high-reward endeavor. you're literally "on the edge" to get the most out of a streetfighter, and at least for me it triggers my adrenaline glands when i'm in near-constant dangerous situation but can output a stupid amount of damage.

This post looks amazingly in-depth, I don't have time to read it just now but I will later. Awesome work!

Edited July 5, 2018 by Answermancer

[Falk Schütze]

I hope they redo Rangers with 1.3. The last patch was disappointing at best.

[Boeroer]

They should take the same patching route as in PoE when it comes to rangers: make the animal companion better. First step should be to raise the base damage. It's just too low. Then suddenly abilities like Vicious/Merciless Companion and Predator's Sense will have the impact they had in PoE (and where the animal companion could hit slowly but like a truck after some patches). I wonder why they returned to puny base damage for Deadfire in the first place? Some abilities of the animal companion are already great. Try to open combat with Takedown Combo + Ranger/Assassin from stealth. I should really do Stalker/Assassin next...

Edited July 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[no1fanboy]

im hoping the next patch buffs rangers

 

would be cool for a good ranged class in the game 

 

at the moment we dont have that

[Ancelor]

Priest still crap?

[grasida]

They should take the same patching route as in PoE when it comes to rangers: make the animal companion better. First step should be to raise the base damage. It's just too low. Then suddenly abilities like Vicious/Merciless Companion and Predator's Sense will have the impact they had in PoE (and where the animal companion could hit slowly but like a truck after some patches). I wonder why they returned to puny base damage for Deadfire in the first place? Some abilities of the animal companion are already great. Try to open combat with Takedown Combo + Ranger/Assassin from stealth. I should really do Stalker/Assassin next...

 

I feel like they started from the PoE 1 release state rather how they ended up after balancing as a template for a number of the class powers. The ranger pets are one example of that. The paladin's reviving exhortation is another, since if I recall at release in PoE, it revived someone for a time, then killed them, then they changed the delayed damage to be more reasonable. Single weapon style was also giving graze to hit in the deadfire beta, just like PoE at release. I could be wrong about this, but development seemed pretty rushed in some areas, and it's possible obsidian just didn't really have the time to review or balance some abilities beyond the template they used to start with.

 

Of course, it's also possible that telemetry data suggests some multiclass ranger builds deal bonkers amounts of damage (and it likely does, given frost seeker at release), and obsidian isn't sure how to balance the pet so that it's a useful and capable addition to weaker or lower damage rangers, but doesn't push very powerful ranger builds even further over the edge.

Edited July 6, 2018 by grasida

[Falk Schütze]

 

They should take the same patching route as in PoE when it comes to rangers: make the animal companion better. First step should be to raise the base damage. It's just too low. Then suddenly abilities like Vicious/Merciless Companion and Predator's Sense will have the impact they had in PoE (and where the animal companion could hit slowly but like a truck after some patches). I wonder why they returned to puny base damage for Deadfire in the first place? Some abilities of the animal companion are already great. Try to open combat with Takedown Combo + Ranger/Assassin from stealth. I should really do Stalker/Assassin next...

 

I feel like they started from the PoE 1 release state rather how they ended up after balancing as a template for a number of the class powers. The ranger pets are one example of that. The paladin's reviving exhortation is another, since if I recall at release in PoE, it revived someone for a time, then killed them, then they changed the delayed damage to be more reasonable. Single weapon style was also giving graze to hit in the deadfire beta, just like PoE at release. I could be wrong about this, but development seemed pretty rushed in some areas, and it's possible obsidian just didn't really have the time to review or balance some abilities beyond the template they used to start with.

 

Of course, it's also possible that telemetry data suggests some multiclass ranger builds deal bonkers amounts of damage (and it likely does, given frost seeker at release), and obsidian isn't sure how to balance the pet so that it's a useful and capable addition to weaker or lower damage rangers, but doesn't push very powerful ranger builds even further over the edge.

 

 

Then it might help to restrict OP weapons like Frostseeker to single class Rangers only E.g. give it a PL requirement of 8.

[Falk Schütze]

... or let it scale in usefulness with Ranger PL (number of shots etc.)

[1TTFFSSE]

needs moar monk

 

...trickster/helwalker?

 

wiZard is good too:

 

...trickster/wizard

[Celan]

 

Then it might help to restrict OP weapons like Frostseeker to single class Rangers only E.g. give it a PL requirement of 8.

There is a lack of good bows in the game already. No need to nerf others to make ranger suitable.

[thelee]

I agree the Wael/Skaen Priests are more effective (than other Priest options), but put them against a Wiz and it is no contest.

 

They're not supposed to be comparable to wizards. Wizards do burst damage, a little bit of self-buffing, and some debuffing. Priests are a support class. They can do party-wide buffs and heals (and probably the best set of revive spells in the game) and have only a small amount of burst damage and debuffs (more or less depending on subclass).

 

If anything, I think a lot of the weakness of the vanilla priest has to do with the fact that outside of direct damage and direct heal spells, power level scaling is really lame. +5% base duration per power level is nothing compared to the power level scaling even PL1 Fan of Flames gets. Who empowers a buff? I would venture to say almost literally no one. (I used to empower arcane veil way back in the day with +10PL empower, but even then I quickly realized in such a situation I'm generally way better off self-empowering and just casting arcane veil again.) I occasionally empower a debuff, for the +5 accuracy, and even then it takes Accurate Empower to make it really worth it. IMO if a spell doesn't do damage or healing or need penetration, it should get additional accuracy/duration power level scaling. (They already do this for something like Repulsing Seal and Slicken, which gets +2 accuracy/PL instead of +1 accuracy/PL. They should make this a more general thing for anything that doesn't do damage/healing.)

 

This would also help a bunch of other spells/classes that are lame with PL scaling or with empower (like a lot of wizard enchantment spells).

Edited July 6, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

PL is just half baked stuff atm. Summoned weapons: scale with char level. Animal Companion: scales with char level. Self buffs like Wizards Double: PL does nothing. Debuffs like Marked Prey or Sworn Enemy: PL does nothing. But Sneak Attack scales with PL. Why? Just "because" - I guess.

Why not raise the deflection bonus of Wizard's Double with PL - even if it's only a bit? Why not scale the dmg bonus of Sworn Enemy and the ACC bonus of Marked Prey with PL? Why do summoned weapons and animal companions and summoned creatures not scale with PL? I guess nobody really knows.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[Takkik]

For summoned weapons and pet I assume it's because of multiclassing. Summoned weapons work well with martial classes but if you reduce their actual usefullness it could become trash? Same with animal companion, people complain about it, if it become less effective in MC it would become even more trash? Just some thoughs. OR it need a buff before it work with PL?